So you never force your views on others --- hmmm --- your own words betray you:ManOfScience wrote:….I'm not sure whether "you" meant me personally or whether it was more general, but, anyway, I have never tried to force my views on religion on to anyone else. I've stated facts and opinions, certainly, but that is not the same thing as forcing my beliefs. In my experience, religious people (in general) are far more likely to be forceful about pushing their views on to others (either nonbelievers or followers of a slightly different belief system).
So it is your stated facts and opinions we are to acquiesce too???ManOfScience wrote:This is something that's been bothering me lately. Why is it that religion is so unquestionable? You can question almost any other aspect of an individual/culture/ethnicity/etc. But, when it comes to religion, that is off limits. In America, at least, it's to the point that some people have been able to use their (claimed) religion to bypass state and federal laws! This is madness to me.
So your point is to demonstrate empirically how outdated and silly Christianity is — again who is pushing their view here??? You say all religions based on supernatural origin but according to your view of science the supernatural cannot exist and in a round about way you are targeting Christianity in order to discredited it by appealing to all religions. Again, who is forcing their views upon another here as evidenced by what you wrote?ManOfScience wrote:In fact, it's not true. I think religion is outdated and more than a little bit silly, but I certainly don't hate it (or the vast majority of its followers).
Again who is trying to force their beliefs on whom here… Faith is not unquestionable here but rather it is your views and opinions that are unquestionable which both directly an indirectly lump all religions together in order to paint with a broad brush that Christians are narrow minded mind numb automatons who dare not question der leader…ManOfScience wrote:Good! Thinking it through. This is what everybody should do. I find that a lot of religious people are unwilling to do just that. (Why do I find myself constantly having to write little disclaimers? Disclaimer: This is a general statement and may not apply to you specifically.) They have their faith, and faith is unquestionable. I've even heard it said that to question your faith is a sin! (How can faith be strong unless it is questioned?) I know the reason for this: religious leaders are afraid of people questioning their faith for fear of losing their followers. Religious leaders are, very often (and perhaps more in Islam than Christianity), dictators, trying to keep "their people" in line.Gman wrote:Forget thinking it through, forget whatever the reason is.. If God is included into the discussion, then automatically, without question, it is false.
In Christianity - you can question and we are called to do so. We can examine our faith.
Our Faith is unknown to you and your opinions would shut you out from any real honest inquiry as evidenced by your own statements which betray your preconceived narrow minded broad brush painting frame of reference. You judge all Christians as members of Cults and use other religions that cannot question der leader as evidence to support your views by lumping all together so as to appear non-threatening...Hmmm....
If you are truly honest — you would state differences… you have not…
I wasn't speaking about the freedom of religion clause but rather the entire Bill of Rights in all its entirety. For brief example: right to assemble; right of redress, right to be free from search and seizure, freedom of the press and speech, etc and etc…ManOfScience wrote:Not bypass, no, but there have to be limits on freedom of religion. Imagine a sect coming out and saying that they connect to God through child rape. There's a line somewhere, and this is obviously way past it. A good point at which to draw that line is, in my opinion, the line drawn by the usual laws of the country/state in which the religion is being practised.B. W. wrote:So it is okay then for the State and Federal law to bypass the Bill of Rights?B. W. wrote:What is the basis of your moral right to do so?
Next, what is the basis of Moral Law that legitimizes the outlawing of child rape (and this would outlaw any sect committing it as well)? Where does the Line (what we call - Moral Law) come from? What principle was the Bill of Rights founded upon?
Next look over the 1963 Communist Goals quoted below:
Note what I underline - what breaches of Moral Law do these goals support in promoting salvery to the state and how do they use the bill of rights against itself in order to subvert and overthrow it?
1963 Communist Goals
The following was entered into the Congressional record by Albert Herlong, Jr. (a Floridian who served in Congress from 1949-69) in 1963.
1) US acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war
2) US willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war
3) Develop the illusion that total disarmament by the US would be a demonstration of "moral strength"
4) Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
5) Extension of long term loans to Russia and Soviet Satellites
6) Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination
7) Grant recognition of Red China, and admission of Red China to the UN.
--8--Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the Germany question by free elections under supervision of the UN
9) Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the US has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress
10) Allow all Soviet Satellites individual representation in the UN
11) Promote the UN as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the UN as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo)
12) Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party
13) Do away with loyalty oaths
14) Continue giving Russia access to the US Patent Office
15) Capture one or both of the political parties in the US
16) Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions, by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
--17) Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism, and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in text books.
18) Gain control of all student newspapers
19) Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
20) Infiltrate the press. Get control of book review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.
21) Gain control of key positions in radio, TV & motion pictures.
22) Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all form of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings", substitute shapeless, awkward, and meaningless forms.
23) Control art critics and directors of art museums. " Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art".
-- 24) Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
25) Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography, and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio and TV.
--26) Present Homosexuality, degeneracy, and promiscuity as "normal, natural, and healthy".
27) Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch"
28) Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the grounds that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state"
29) Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30) Discredit the American founding fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man".
31) Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of "the big picture:" Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
32) Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture - - education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
33) Eliminate all laws or procedures, which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
34) Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
35) Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI
-- 36) Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
37) Infiltrate and gain control of big business
38) Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand or treat.
39) Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
--- 40) Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
41) Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
42) Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special interest groups should rise up and make a "united force" to solve economic, political, or social problems.
43) Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
44) Internationalize the Panama Canal.
---45) Repeal the Connally Reservation so the US can not prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over nations and individuals alike.
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I'm sure (and I hope!) that the vast majority of believers wouldn't agree with that statement. This is why I started my sentence with the phrase "I've even heard it said...", implying the probable rarity of the idea. However, I just did a very quick Google search, and it's definitely out there. This random example is the first instance I came across:
