Why not PROVE his existence?

[Darwin_Rocks]

Hey I'm reading this book called Contact by Carl Sagan which was recently made into a movie and it's got some pretty good Pro-Atheism arguments in that had a profound effect on me. I will briefly list them for a counter argument as Sagan doesn't seem to adequately give one.

If God is omnipresent and omnipotent and generally wishes us all well then why doesn't he just reveal his existence. The only examples of God actually speaking to us in the Old Testament are in ambiguous forms (such as the burning bush) and when God appears in the New Testament, do you not think that he would come via a more trust worthy method than a single man whom many people would dub as crazy?

My point basically is, why does God need an outdated book to tell the people that he exists, a being who is omnipresent as he is would surely be able to reveal his existence in full and not rely on an ancient historical document open to various problems of evidence to prove that he exists.

I wish to have an intelligent discussion over this subject and realise that these questions maybe hit on a soft spot with you guys but I was honestly affected by these hypothesis' and wanted to learn of a Christian perspective.

[Deborah]

Some of us have seen proof of his existance *sigh*
most of us don't need to because our faith is enough.

We are happy that we have the faith to believe Our father in heaven has a plan for our eternity.
I use to believe the bible was outdated, but not anymore. If only I could explain things taht have come to make sence to me.
A non believer can not possably know what it is to come to where I am.
I believer just might possably understand.
All I can say now is much of what I read now in gods word makes sence to me.

[Mastermind]

If you have faith He will reveal Himself to you. It's as simple as that. An atheist will never know this because he is drowning in his ignorance. Why doesn't God show us He exists? He shows those who are open every second of their lives.

[August]

I wish to have an intelligent discussion over this subject and realise that these questions maybe hit on a soft spot with you guys but I was honestly affected by these hypothesis' and wanted to learn of a Christian perspective.

Hi DR,

This is not a soft spot, it is a great question. As long as you don't let pre-conceptions cloud your judgment, the answer is also great.

God reveals Himself in different ways. The first is what is called His "general revelation". It is the creation, including you and your own self. All that you see around you is revelation from God, and our friend Sagan did not want to accept that. If you investigate the origins and growth of the universe, earth, life and the sentience of man, there is plenty of revelation and proof for an almighty and omniscient creator. Also, you are your own revelation, and part of God's general revelation. What gives you the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, what gives you a consciousness and a conscience? What gives you the ability to understand the creation around you? All of that was given by God to every human being, so that you may one day find Him. And if when you become a Christian, you know that you cannot accept Christ except through the power of the Holy Spirit. Your human nature, through the falling into sin by the first man, is that you cannot by your own power become a servant of God. It requires a decision on your side, and an acceptance of the work of the Holy Spirit.

The second revelation is what is called God's "special revelation", and that is God's thoughts, wishes, commands and purposes, i.e. the Bible. You state that the Bible is outdated, my answer is that the Bible is timeless. The thoughts of God are as applicable today as they were at any time during the history of the earth. It is necessary to understand the history in order to understand how we received it. It is necessary to know about the people God called to write the Bible, to understand that He may call any of us. It is necessary to have the whole Bible to follow the golden thread of Jesus from the fall of man into sin until our salvation through Christ. There is nothing that is outdated, unneccesary or not applicable. At what point does something become outdated? I think it is when it no longer has value or practical application, but the Bible absolutely still has that. Look at your own arguments, they use Biblical assumptions. For example, how would you know of any such thing as an atheist if it was not for a Biblical doctrine of believer vs non-believer? How would you know what trustworthy means, if it was not for the Bible? I think that once you start considering where our value system comes from, and that we still apply that every day, in many situations, you will realize that the Bible is anything but outdated.

Hope it helps. I'm sure you will have some more questions, fire away.

August

[kateliz]

August, you did a better job than I could've, and I thank you for that. DR, don't worry about "soft spots," because I'm sure a lot of us here are pretty tough-skinned on debating things of Christianity. Why else would we be so interested in a site where such controversial things are the main theme? No, God does not stretch His Hand out of the sky to wave at us or to move things around like pieces of a game. No, He hasn't yet come to sit on a throne on earth and rule over as He has a right to do and will later do. I like a Ziggy comic I saw once where Ziggy is standing in a field asking God while facing the sky to send a sign of His existence, and then a neon, flashing, electric sign falls out of the sky that blinks something like, "Here I am." He has not chosen to use such methods. August specified what methods He has chosen, and you named one of them yourself: that "crazy" guy. Only He wasn't a guy, He was a Guy. Mastermind hit the nail on the head with why He has chosen these methods. I don't believe free-will is biblical, so I won't say that He did it this way so we could choose Him or reject Him without the prejudice of obvious knowledge of His existence. That's a stupid argument anyway because those who know of Him know He did make this knowledge obvious to those who honestly seek for it. As for your comment on the Bible being

open to various problems of evidence to prove that he exists

I question the sources of that assumption of yours. Ours is a factual belief system of a real God that doesn't require that blasphemous "leap in the dark." God's Word tells us that faith is merely believing in the facts. Hope, according to the Bible, is also only expecting what is known to happen to happen. You cannot use the Biblical word for faith to say, "I have faith in the weather forecast," or use the Biblical word for hope to say, "I hope I'll win the lottery tonight." Christianity is not a wish-washy religion "weak-minded people use as a crutch," (to quote my former govenor who is a former pro-wrestler.) It is a factual, proveable understanding of reality. Like Mastermind so masterfully said,

Why doesn't God show us He exists? He shows those who are open every second of their lives.

If God opens your heart to honestly search for the truth of Him, ready to accept whatever you find as true, then you'll see what's so obvious to us Christians!

[kateliz]

Also, DR, you might think of changing your name. Darwinian evolution is being blown out of the waters by modern science. Leading scientists in their fields are finally publically admitting this because they have no choice to based on innumerable scientific facts in probably every field of science. Just a suggestion though. Hey, at least the guy was thinking, whereas so many others don't put their feeble gray matter to use!

[Prodigal Son]

well, he wanted only those who really wanted to know him to find him...

also, there is plenty of proof for him, his ambiguous forms are more of a distraction, to "filter" out the unworthy...sort of.

finally, even though some would like to believe Jesus was crazy, there is firm psychological evidence to prove he was not...so, again, only those who want to see and hear, who are not misled by human arrogance/pride will find the truth.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Carl Sagan....he...was less of a scientist, and more of an idiot.....he's said some pretty crazy things-his reason that the reason man has memories of dinosaurs (stories of dragons, and drawings of dinosaurs by a tribe that only drew from nature) is the result of primitive primates who lived with dinosaurs millions of years giving us there memories-fossil memories he called them....I could ask one of my teachers, she's read a book by or about him.

Darwinian evolution is being blown out of the waters by modern science.

They've made up punctuated evolution, and sticking to "hey, billions of years, anything could happen." There is...absolutely no evidence for puncuated evolution...it was created due to the lack of transitional forms . And Gould said, basically, they believe it because they have no other choice.

August did the rest, my job here should be done.

[Darwin_Rocks]

his ambiguous forms are more of a distraction, to "filter" out the unworthy...sort of

I struggle with this concept. If God loves us all equally then why would he deny his love and acceptance to those whom are skeptical? Is it fair for God to deny love to certain individuals out there whom question religious answers to questions that may have a scientific explanation?

Just because somebody feels the need to question blind faith does not mean that he/she is any less a person.

Darwinian evolution is being blown out of the waters by modern science.

Really? I'll have to research it and think about changing my name then.

[Prodigal Son]

i have an idea...the reason there are drawings of dinosaurs in caves by "primitive" man is because people and dinosaurs lived together at one time.

darwinrocks,

God doesn't deny his love to anyone. it's more than okay to be a skeptic, but when people chose to believe in nonsense out of arrogance/pride (e.g., believing that Jesus is crazy just because most people say he is, or because the truth is harder to research, or because most available/popular info. "makes sense"), they are denying themselves the opportunity to experience his love...those who seek shall find. science does explain alot...even and especially God...but most people don't want to accept that and turn away from the truth even when it's evident.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

I struggle with this concept. If God loves us all equally then why would he deny his love and acceptance to those whom are skeptical? Is it fair for God to deny love to certain individuals out there whom question religious answers to questions that may have a scientific explanation?

I don't agree with the weeding out idea....it's somewhat....ambigious. God does not deny His love to skeptics-His love, agape, God love, is unconditional. If you spill milk, swear, or do something else wrong, He love you all the same. I actually approve of people who ask questions before becoming Christians-because if you accept ANYTHING blindly, you will fall away. A person who believes in Christianity and has reasons for believing is much stronger in times of crisis-because when he starts to question his faith-He'll have answers-while the person with blind faith will fall down.

[kateliz]

I actually approve of people who ask questions before becoming Christians-because if you accept ANYTHING blindly, you will fall away. A person who believes in Christianity and has reasons for believing is much stronger in times of crisis-because when he starts to question his faith-He'll have answers-while the person with blind faith will fall down.

Hear, hear! And that sounded like the parable of the seed a little! But I'm surprisingly having a hard time with God loving everyone no matter what. It pretty fundamental, but I guess I've never worked it out theologically for myself. Got scripture?

[Darwin_Rocks]

Another thing that makes me begin doubt religion is the idea that Religious people use God to fill in the gaps of their understanding. This is not just with Christianity but with EVERY religion. E.g: Ancient Civillisations' worshipped the Sun because they thought it was a God, however now we know that the sun is Star.

When people use supernatural events such as demonic possession or stigmata as evidence for the existence of God how do we know that Science will not have an answer in the future?

[Dan]

Another thing that makes me begin doubt religion is the idea that Religious people use God to fill in the gaps of their understanding. This is not just with Christianity but with EVERY religion. E.g: Ancient Civillisations' worshipped the Sun because they thought it was a God, however now we know that the sun is Star.

When people use supernatural events such as demonic possession or stigmata as evidence for the existence of God how do we know that Science will not have an answer in the future?

The God of Christianity isn't based on physical phenomena, His existence was not created to explain nature. In fact, Him being created by man is illogical because He demands man give up his sin and lead a strict good life. This isn't the kind of god people make up, He must be the real Lord.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Another thing that makes me begin doubt religion is the idea that Religious people use God to fill in the gaps of their understanding. This is not just with Christianity but with EVERY religion. E.g: Ancient Civillisations' worshipped the Sun because they thought it was a God, however now we know that the sun is Star.

When people use supernatural events such as demonic possession or stigmata as evidence for the existence of God how do we know that Science will not have an answer in the future?

There is usually some truth in every lie, that's what makes people believe it. Yes, many people did and do believe that gods control everything. In a Newsweek article about the tsunami, they had an article about how each religion over there answered the question. The Buddhists' answer was that their sea god did it. (The Christian answer was God was punishing people....which annoyed me....natural forces occur without God's interference, He set up the world so He doesn't have to make everything happen....). Also, you overestimate science-science can only study natural phenomenon, and some people under the guise of science seem to be making excuses for things-such as with original sin, the blame is placed on genetics, upbrining, sociolization, or psychological disorders...

And on the beginning question:

http://www.believers.org/richprob.htm