Why Is Religion Unquestionable?

[ageofknowledge]

I had to look up who Fred Phelps was. Never heard of him before. His "church," the Westboro Baptist Church, has 71 confirmed members 60 of whom are related to Phelps. Not much of a threat. Islam, on the other hand, is the fastest growing religion in the world boasting one out of four people on the planet.

[touchingcloth]

Islam has 1,500 years on Fred Phelps...
Islam may be growing fast, but radical Islam is just one part of it. It's no accident that a huge proportion of terrorists train in Pakistan.

[ageofknowledge]

Islam has 1,500 years on Fred Phelps...
Islam may be growing fast, but radical Islam is just one part of it. It's no accident that a huge proportion of terrorists train in Pakistan.

From what I'm reading this Fred Phelps is 81 years old and his tiny group, which isn't growing, is built around a core of anti-homosexual teachings. If you don't like his views on homosexuality, you won't like Islams either. The mainstream (e.g. pro-homosexual Muslim groups like the Al-Fatiha Foundation only comprise somewhere around 10,000 people in the entire Islam world making it a very tiny drop in a very large ocean) interpretation of Qur'anic verses and hadith condemn sexual acts between members of the same sex. Consider:

"Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to." -The Hadith in reference to the active and passive partners in gay sexual intercourse.

The 1.5 billion Muslims in the world are anti-homosexual friend. Pretending that the 10,000 or so that accept homosexuality as normal has any material influence on 1.5 billion that reject it out of hand and adhere to The Hadith teaching on the subject is delusional in my view.

And no I'm not accusing you of pretending that. I'm just stating it for the record. But I do think you're obsession with Fred is unwarranted. He's no one of influence leading a handful of simple minded folk. His group's not going anywhere.

[touchingcloth]

Oh I have no beef with their anti-homosexuality, they're welcome to it however unreasoned it may be. I still don't see any evidence that the UK is in real danger of turning into a caliphate, no matter how much some people would like that to be so.

[ageofknowledge]

Oh I have no beef with their anti-homosexuality, they're welcome to it however unreasoned it may be. I still don't see any evidence that the UK is in real danger of turning into a caliphate, no matter how much some people would like that to be so.

I'm not in Britain but I read.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 621482.ece
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/colum ... al-it.html
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/919 ... of+Britain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/repor ... ham1.shtml
etc...

[touchingcloth]

Yes but you have to extrapolate a baby boom to lasting forever, which they don't, and assume that all "migrants" will remain insular forever, etc.

And Mohammed being the most popular name? That would be worrying if, for example, Mohammed was a popular amongst muslims as, say, John was amongst the rest of the non-muslim British population.

ETA - For example the population of west-Indians in the UK grew rapidly for a time as they brought their relatives and friends along etc. For a time their population did grow more rapidly than that of the native Brits, but it stabilised.

[Byblos]

It's ok, I'm fairly thick skinned , no offense taken.

I hope you did see that I didn't mean it the way it came out. Too nice, perhaps, would've conveyed more what I was driving at. I certainly don't think you're dumb in any way, shape or form, far from it. In an attempt at openness and a drive towards secularism, Europe has invited the fox into the chicken coop. It's only a matter of time until the hens start to disppear and a new king is proclaimed in the land.

Probably worth noting here that I don't disagree that there are some pretty reprehensible things in Islam, nor do I deny that there are aspects of the Koran that lend themselves well to justifying radical behaviour. I merely express scepticism that, e.g., Europe will be an Islamic theocracy/have an Islamic majority by year X as I don't think the data supports it.

Really? Do you know what the most popular boys name is in France now? Mohammad.

[touchingcloth]

Really? Do you know what the most popular boys name is in France now? Mohammad.

If more than 1 in 2 indigenous Frenchmen were called Pierre then this fact would be significant (if indeed it is a fact)

ETA - boys called mohammed to sharia law is quite a leap.
If I was more cynical I'd bring up the word pilgrim lol.

[Gman]

I hope you did see that I didn't mean it the way it came out. Too nice, perhaps, would've conveyed more what I was driving at. I certainly don't think you're dumb in any way, shape or form, far from it. In an attempt at openness and a drive towards secularism, Europe has invited the fox into the chicken coop. It's only a matter of time until the hens start to disppear and a new king is proclaimed in the land.

John I witnessed the same thing too when I lived in Malaysia back in the 70's for about 2 years. Christians and Jews were not welcomed there... My understanding is that it has gotten even worse since we left too.

There seems to be a certain denial among the non-believers about the Islamic faith and what is at stake here. People who haven't lived in a Muslim country before have no clue what they are dealing with. They think that if they lavish them with their civil rights that will somehow bring peace. What many fail to realize, however, is that when Islam is practiced to it's fullest, it is devoid of any foreign governmental control setting itself as it's own government/dictatorship. That is how it is practiced. Complete domination over it's subordinates. Take Afghanistan as an example... Before there was no real separation between church and state until the U.S. started to setup a democracy there. I can assure you too, if the Taliban regained control of those territories, you can kiss goodbye to any type of democracy there...

[Byblos]

I hope you did see that I didn't mean it the way it came out. Too nice, perhaps, would've conveyed more what I was driving at. I certainly don't think you're dumb in any way, shape or form, far from it. In an attempt at openness and a drive towards secularism, Europe has invited the fox into the chicken coop. It's only a matter of time until the hens start to disppear and a new king is proclaimed in the land.

John I witnessed the same thing too when I lived in Malaysia back in the 70's for about 2 years. Christians and Jews were not welcomed there... My understanding is that it has gotten even worse since we left too.

There seems to be a certain denial among the non-believers about the Islamic faith and what is at stake here. People who haven't lived in a Muslim country before have no clue what they are dealing with. They think that if they lavish them with their civil rights that will somehow bring peace. What many fail to realize, however, is that when Islam is practiced to it's fullest, it is devoid of any foreign governmental control setting itself as it's own government/dictatorship. That is how it is practiced. Complete domination over it's subordinates. Take Afghanistan as an example... Before there was no real separation between church and state until the U.S. started to setup a democracy there. I can assure you too, if the Taliban regained control of those territories, you can kiss goodbye to any type of democracy there...

Absolutely, Iraq too. The moment we pull our troops out all hell is gonna break loose again. Only after a civil war in Lebanon is a fragile semblance of a democracy restored. And that's only because a balance of power along confessional lines is in place. Make no mistake about it though, Hizballah has its own armed forces and a taste of autonomy (under the pretext of resistance). They will never give it up and submit to the central government again without the shedding of blood. Their religion simply does not allow for it.

[ageofknowledge]

God gives people the right to make a choice to have an opinion. Our country has traditionally honored this freedom of religion along with freedom of speech which is really the right to have and express your opinion on matters pertaining to your view of the world. Some countries don't. You might want to consider moving to one them if people having opinions bothers you a great deal.

(I'll ignore the nonsensical phrase "God gives people the right...") For the record, I have no problem with people expressing themselves through religion -- as long as it's within the law. My original question pertained (perhaps not entirely clearly, in which case, I apologise) to people or groups of people using religion as a way to bypass the normal restrictions of the society in which they live.

Where I live secularists are constantly trying to use homosexuality, feminism, the race card (as a non-latino white I am actually in a quickly diminishing minority demogralphic where I live and just laugh when latinos here who are the majority start playing the race card), their misunderstanding of church and state, etc... to get over on or gain an advantage over everyday normal Christian people. It's almost exclusively one way. The typical Christian where I live is the one working hard, educating themselves, and going to church twice a week. To my understanding, racial demographics aside because they vary depending where you are in the country geographically speaking, I don't see Christians engaged in this victim mentality behavior to gain a personal or political advantage as a strategy like the "highly sensitized so easily offended" atheist and pagan communities are. To the contrary, they just do what they're supposed to and leave the crying, whining, and complaining to others.

I think you may have a gross misconception about which way the crying, whining, and complaining for personal and political advantage is going in our culture. You have it going the wrong way.

[DannyM]

In the UK at least we have no real privileges or penalties for belonging to any particular religion, or indeed for having no religion at all.

Could you tell me where in the UK you reside as I'm perplexed that you seem oblivious (or at least unaware) of the systematic demonising of Christians or Christian groups who speak out against immorality? Or who dare to turn up to gay "pride" marches to speak out against homosexuality, only to be arrested and held in the cells? Or does the discrimination of the indiginous and long-established Christianity not faze you? On what basis do you appear to think that a form of utopianism is underway in our geen and pleasent land? Do you frequent the inner cities? Do you recognise the systematic undermining of free speach which has occured since Blair's Labour Government gained power?

[DannyM]

TC, your first point is a good one. However, I know there are a lot of muslims in your country who are ecstatic that you are ignorant of their plots within your country. You couldn't be more wrong. The world is not moving towards freedom.

There's a lot of them, and they can plot all they like...but they're in a minority even within the muslim community.

Then you are delusional as to what Islam truly is.

Not really - I've lived in a few areas with very large muslim communities so I've known lots of muslims over the years. The vast majority of muslims in the UK are moderate and well-integrated.

Sure there's a bubbling undercurrent of radical fundamentalism, but believe me when I say that it's currently of no threat in the UK. Jihadists and those who would instate sharia law in the UK are denounced by all but the most radical clerics.

Who or what are you trying to convince with your assured guarantee to the people of America that there "is no threat" to the UK from Islamic fundamentalism? Have you heard of the march in London tomorrow for Sharia Law? There will be carnage in London tomorrow as thousands of Englishmen are counter-marching in Trafalgar Square against this afront as our soldiers are fighting for their Brethren's freedom only for an anti-freedom movement to call for an anti-freedom criterium.

[touchingcloth]

Or does the discrimination of the indiginous and long-established Christianity not faze you? On what basis do you appear to think that a form of utopianism is underway in our geen and pleasent land?
...
Who or what are you trying to convince with your assured guarantee to the people of America that there "is no threat" to the UK from Islamic fundamentalism? Have you heard of the march in London tomorrow for Sharia Law? There will be carnage in London tomorrow as thousands of Englishmen are counter-marching in Trafalgar Square against this afront as our soldiers are fighting for their Brethren's freedom only for an anti-freedom movement to call for an anti-freedom criterium.

The discrimination against any person based solely on their religion fazes me; show me examples of the systematic demonisation of christians that you talk about and I'll be right behind you in denouncing them.

Your second post is a "bingo" in terms of why I'm not worried about Britain turning into an islamic theocracy; the scum who march for that and against our soldiers are in the minority - look at the kind of responses they always provoke. However I will defend their right to march just as I will defend the right of christians to demonstrate against homosexuality, much though I disgaree with both positions.

[DannyM]

The discrimination against any person based solely on their religion fazes me; show me examples of the systematic demonisation of christians that you talk about and I'll be right behind you in denouncing them.

Your second post is a "bingo" in terms of why I'm not worried about Britain turning into an islamic theocracy; the scum who march for that and against our soldiers are in the minority - look at the kind of responses they always provoke. However I will defend their right to march just as I will defend the right of christians to demonstrate against homosexuality, much though I disgaree with both positions.

What responses? Do you remember in Luton when soldiers were on a homecoming parade through the town centre and the Islamic fundamentalists who were on the very same streets screaming abuse at these heroic soldiers?

Will you acknowledge that there is an undercurrent of inverted justice which punishes Christians or indiginous citizens for daring to speak their democratic mind?