Is it a sin to marry a minor?

[zoegirl]

Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Living together won't ensure success...but neither does arranged marriages. But let's define a successful marriage. Simply "not getting divorced" doesn't define a successful marriage, it just means they are staying together. You have to take into account *why* they are staying married and the state/health of the marriage. Many cultures so frown on divorce that people will stay married, doesn't mean that the couple is "cherishing" each other or loving each other or even supporting each other. Does this help the children? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. A frigid marriage may teach the wrong ideas about interacting with the spouse. Would the divorce be even more damaging? Usually yes.

It certainly doesn't imply anything about the commitment to the other person, it may simply mean that they are committed to the social institution. Doesn't mean they won't cheat, ignore, or hurt the other person while still remaining married.

Arranged marriages may have a lower divorce rate, it doesn't mean that have any higher success at creating a healthy marriage.

I highly doubt that God frowns on the idea of a couple getting to know one another!

Let's face it, any courting/dating system will be flawed because we are flawed. Can mature Christian teens date and have no problems? Sure.!! I've seen it happen. Can immature teens date and injure their minds and hearts and body? Sure! Doesn't make dating necessarily wrong.

[ageofknowledge]

India really has some messed up standards. First child brides are common. In the rural villages of these countries many young girls are rarely allowed out of their homes unless it is to work in the fields or to get married. These uneducated girls are often married off at the young age of 11. Some families allow girls who are only 7 years old to marry. It is very unusual for a girl to reach the age of 16 and not be married.

If that's not insane enough for you, they actually burn brides there! That's murder! Check it out:

"Bride-burning is a form of domestic violence practiced in Bangladesh, India, Pakistan and other countries located on or around the Indian subcontinent. A category of dowry death, bride-burning occurs when a young woman is murdered by her husband or his family for her family's refusal to pay additional dowry. The wife is typically doused with kerosene, gasoline, or other flammable liquid, and set alight, leading to death by fire.

Virendra Kumar and Sarita Kanth point out that bride burning has been recognized as an important public health problem in India. They say that it is a historical and cultural issue accounting for around 600-750 deaths per year in India alone. In 1995 Time Magazine reported that dowry deaths in India increased from around 400 a year in the early 1980s to around 5,800 a year by the middle of the 1990s. A year later CNN ran a story saying that every year police receive more than 2,500 reports of bride burning." -Wikipedia

I can't really get my mind around how these societies treat their girls and women except to note that without scriptural standards undergirding societies you get all sorts of undesirable madness.

[jlay]

Arranged marriages may have a lower divorce rate, it doesn't mean that have any higher success at creating a healthy marriage.

Certainly a fair point. Please understand that my point is not to advocate arranged marriages per se, but to rebuke and condemn the modern practice of 'dating.'

Courting is a much more moral approach, and seems to comply much more with the bible's ideals.

The term 'arranged' marriage can have different meanings in different cultures. Let's just look at the marriage of Jacob and Rebekah. Or, look at Joseph and Mary. The key to a Godly marriage are two who are focused on God. The failing of any marriage is rooted in selfishness.

[Harry12345]

Harry, if you weren't being ridiculous before

Which I wasn't.

you are now.

And I suppose you, out of the good grace of your heart, are going to tell me how?

When did I say it wasn't? Just because the culture is an influence doens't mean God won't hold people accountable for their choices. Are you trying to put words in my mouth? You are preaching to the choir when it comes to Godly accountability in regards to choices. But denying the INFLUENCE of the culture is being willfully ignorant of reality, or just stubborn.

Whether or not society influences your decision is neither here nor there. If you do the crime, you'll do the time, no doubt about it.

Harry, that's almost an oxymoron. That just isn't a reality. Dating is situation that feeds the problem. It is a product of the modern culture, and most people are so used to it, they consider it wierd to speak against it. I don't think anyone can defend modern dating with the bible.

Nobody can defend computers using the Bible either... and yet here we are. 'Dating' simply means going out out with somebody. If you can't go out with somebody without lusting after them, what society does and does not proscribe is the LEAST of your worries.

There has to be a reason to resist the culture. If parents and others who speak into the moral shaping of a child give it the big thumbs up then what?

The Bible, God's written word, condemns premarital sex. I'd say that would be a good enough reason, wouldn't you? If somebody is not a Christian, they have no chance of being saved anyway, so whether or not they engage in sinful activity in irrelevent.

I just don't see any facts to back that up. People who live together before marriage obviously get to know each other. Yet, they have a high divorce rate. Arranged marriages have a much much longer success rate.

It is true that the essence of marriage is comittment. However, if you're going to comit to somebody, it may as well be to somebody you know. Dating is a good oppurtunity to get to know somebody, to see if they are a godly person, to test if a marriage with them will be enjoyable.

[jlay]

Harry, if you weren't being ridiculous before

Which I wasn't.

you are now.

And I suppose you, out of the good grace of your heart, are going to tell me how?

When did I say it wasn't? Just because the culture is an influence doens't mean God won't hold people accountable for their choices. Are you trying to put words in my mouth? You are preaching to the choir when it comes to Godly accountability in regards to choices. But denying the INFLUENCE of the culture is being willfully ignorant of reality, or just stubborn.

Whether or not society influences your decision is neither here nor there. If you do the crime, you'll do the time, no doubt about it.
Harry, are you aware there is a differnce between willfull disobedience and ignorant disobedience? Sin is a matter of heart motive. When parents, christian parents, are buying their children condoms and getting their daughters on birth control, what message are the children receiving?

Harry, that's almost an oxymoron. That just isn't a reality. Dating is situation that feeds the problem. It is a product of the modern culture, and most people are so used to it, they consider it wierd to speak against it. I don't think anyone can defend modern dating with the bible.

Nobody can defend computers using the Bible either... and yet here we are. 'Dating' simply means going out out with somebody. If you can't go out with somebody without lusting after them, what society does and does not proscribe is the LEAST of your worries.
Harry, you and I both know that dating is more than going out with someone. I go out with members of the same sex. I am NOT dating them. Dating infers much more in our current culture. Sexual attraction is natural. However, much of what we do in dating situations is not. Dating is a act that places a youth in a position of temptation that they should not be placed in.

There has to be a reason to resist the culture. If parents and others who speak into the moral shaping of a child give it the big thumbs up then what?

The Bible, God's written word, condemns premarital sex. I'd say that would be a good enough reason, wouldn't you? If somebody is not a Christian, they have no chance of being saved anyway, so whether or not they engage in sinful activity in irrelevent.
Harry, you are again being naive and ridiculous. You assume young people, and young Christians have a meaningful understanding of the scripture. I was raised in a so called 'Christian' home. It wasn't by the way. My parents did not teach my the Word of God. They did not instruct me on dating, or how to honor God in my relationships. They just flowed right along with the world. They let me go out with girls unsupervised. I had a very distorted view of sexuality because my dad went to church, but kept dirty magazines. I was also sexually exploited by an older girl at a very very young age. This was COMMON in my generation. I am 39 now. Christian parents who allow dating are sending kids a mixed message. Your assertion about non-Christians is just absurd. The fact is that so called Christian families are no different than the rest of the world. We are to by set apart. Different.

I just don't see any facts to back that up. People who live together before marriage obviously get to know each other. Yet, they have a high divorce rate. Arranged marriages have a much much longer success rate.

It is true that the essence of marriage is comittment. However, if you're going to comit to somebody, it may as well be to somebody you know. Dating is a good oppurtunity to get to know somebody, to see if they are a godly person, to test if a marriage with them will be enjoyable.

Supervised courting is a good way to get to know somebody.

[Harry12345]

Harry, are you aware there is a differnce between willfull disobedience and ignorant disobedience? Sin is a matter of heart motive. When parents, christian parents, are buying their children condoms and getting their daughters on birth control, what message are the children receiving?

They are getting the message that it is ok to have premarital sex. All they have to do is ignore this message. I don't get the problem.

Harry, you and I both know that dating is more than going out with someone. I go out with members of the same sex. I am NOT dating them. Dating infers much more in our current culture. Sexual attraction is natural. However, much of what we do in dating situations is not. Dating is a act that places a youth in a position of temptation that they should not be placed in.

Where are you getting all of this?

Harry, you are again being naive and ridiculous. You assume young people, and young Christians have a meaningful understanding of the scripture. I was raised in a so called 'Christian' home. It wasn't by the way. My parents did not teach my the Word of God. They did not instruct me on dating, or how to honor God in my relationships. They just flowed right along with the world. They let me go out with girls unsupervised. I had a very distorted view of sexuality because my dad went to church, but kept dirty magazines. I was also sexually exploited by an older girl at a very very young age. This was COMMON in my generation. I am 39 now. Christian parents who allow dating are sending kids a mixed message. Your assertion about non-Christians is just absurd. The fact is that so called Christian families are no different than the rest of the world. We are to by set apart. Different.

You don't need a meaningful understanding of scripture to know that premarital sex is immoral. I was 15 when I became a Christian - I knew then and I know now.

I was given condoms and sex tips at school - guess what? Still a virgin (I'm not married). It wasn't too challenging to be honest. The challenging part is kicking the lust, but if you give your life over to Jesus Christ He will make this easier for you.

Supervised courting is a good way to get to know somebody.

And the differences between courting and dating is...?

[zoegirl]

Although dating may eventually lead to marriage, it is not intended to lead directly to marriage. The main motive behind dating is some kind of sexual stimulation and satisfaction. If someone would argue that point, I would say, "If it is just the company of the opposite sex you are after and not sexual stimulation, hold your sister's hand " Dating, as I have defined and described it, is not in the Bible in word, principle or example.

Therefore, It is Worldly.

2.Courting= Courting is young men and women seeking each other out, under their parents' or guardians' supervision, for the purpose of finding a spouse. Christian courting is the same, except I would add, finding a spouse in the will of God. This is scriptural. It is found in the Bible in word, principle and example.

http://www.momof9splace.com/court.html

Problems I see are the lack of definition. In her example she insists that dating is solely for sexual stimulation. Whereas in reality dating runs the spectrum between very chaste relationships to "hooking up". Asking a Christian what defines a date would provide a different picture than a high school teenager or a non-CHristian of any age.

Dating can be fine. Unfortunately nobody seems to define the rules. Thirty years ago a boy would have met the father before escorting the girl to the movie and would have checked in to the dad. And while there were certainly rules broken, it was far stricter than now.

No 15 year old needs to go on a solitary date, but mature Christians who don't put themselves in tempting positions and who guard their hearts can certainly date. There is no reason for dating someone or being in a relationship "just" to be in a relationship. If you know pretty soon that you're not going to marry that person, then you should end that relationship.

[DannyM]

http://www.momof9splace.com/court.html

Problems I see are the lack of definition. In her example she insists that dating is solely for sexual stimulation. Whereas in reality dating runs the spectrum between very chaste relationships to "hooking up". Asking a Christian what defines a date would provide a different picture than a high school teenager.

Dating can be fine. Unfortunately nobody seems to define the rules. Thirty years ago a boy would have met the father before escorting the girl to the movie and would have checked in to the dad. And while there were certainly rules broken, it was far stricter than now.

No 15 year old needs to go on a solitary date, but mature Christians who don't put themselves in tempting positions and who guard their hearts can certainly date. There is no reason for dating someone or being in a relationship "just" to be in a relationship. If you know pretty soon that you're not going to marry that person, then you should end that relationship.

Zoe,

This is very profound. You are surely right. But the world (if you'll excuse the generalisation; I know there are many exceptions) has taken a turn for the worse. Ending a relationship if you know it will not result in marriage and thus children born in to this stable environment? Highly commendable, and I'd love this to be the case, or just the norm. I applaud your sincere, strong moral ethic.

Peace

[ageofknowledge]

The lack of parental involvement in adolescent dating has grown ever laxer as mores disappear. This has resulted in some negative patterns. You're all aware of higher birth rates, instances of STDs/Aids, and premartial sex but you may not be aware of the increase in serial molestation from older teens to younger ones. This is where an older teen who has experienced sex seeks out other children one after the other introducing them to sexual experiences. This behavior, while with us always (I encountered it at 15 by a 17 year old high school girl, for example, back in the late 70's), has really increased dramatically.

[zoegirl]

Thanks,

COurtship can be a fine model....to me it seems like what dating *used* to be about. Meeting the parents, asking permission, having clear rules, etc.


Also, for those women who reach their twenties and thirties unmarried, courtship is an unrealistic model, considering that most women live outside the home or many miles away, working to support themselves. Even centuries ago, when women reached their majority, usually in their twenties, a father's permission was unnecessary although his blessing was usually sought. Of course, there were still very strict rules for courting and the couple was not to go places unchaperoned or ti would risk her good reputation. (it's still a good idea to never be somewhere alone....nothing good usually comes from being alone with each other....especially after 10 at night!!!).

FOr both dating and courtship, the mature Christian should always guard the heart of the other person. They shouldn't lead them on or manipulate them.

We wouldn't have nearly the problems with dating if we emphasized good character, morals, and integrity as noble traits to look for in people. A good sense of humor, intelligence, and a fun personality are all great to look for but they are hardly sustaining qualities for a relationship without honor and integrity, not to mention a heart for God.

[ageofknowledge]

In certain segments of our society, there's not enough parents left. Consider that in the city of Los Angeles, 70% of all children grow up fatherless. And the single parent mothers and fathers that do remain are usually sexually immoral themselves and/or following the modern liberal philosophy of teaching their kids to use condoms. The predominant courtship model out there in many segments of our society is to give your kid condoms.

[DannyM]

In certain segments of our society, there's not enough parents left. Consider that in the city of Los Angeles, 70% of all children grow up fatherless. And the single parent mothers and fathers that do remain are usually sexually immoral themselves and/or following the modern liberal philosophy of teaching their kids to use condoms. The predominant courtship model out there in many segments of our society is to give your kid condoms.

Uh huh. And you can throw in the single mothers having different "boyfriends" popping in and out of what should be a safe and morally decent home. I see fathers who don't seem to give a tupenny hapenny who their daughters hook up with. It's all upside down, like society has become inverted. Promiscuity just seems to me to be at epidemic levels.

Peace.

[ageofknowledge]

True Danny. I have to correct my post though. I meant to say 70% of all black children in Los Angeles grow up fatherless. Check these out:

http://www.fathermag.com/news/2756-suicide.shtml
http://www.paternita.info/america/fathe ... merica.pdf

[DannyM]

True Danny. I have to correct my post though. I meant to say 70% of all black children in Los Angeles grow up fatherless. Check these out:

http://www.fathermag.com/news/2756-suicide.shtml
http://www.paternita.info/america/fathe ... merica.pdf

Shocking, Age. The data is there for all to see: children with a mother and father who are together and married have a better chance educationally, emotionally, psychologically, socially, in their careers, in raising their OWN children in a stable manner...

How does the American government tackle these kind of statistics, Age? Over here many are afraid to speak out strictly in favour of traditional family unity for fear of being shouted down by the liberal left with bogus cries of being nasty, anti-women, persecuting single mothers blah blah; that's a blinder by the way: if you speak up for the traditional family as the best model for a child/children to be raised in then it must then follow that you are a sacreaming, anti-female/single mother, right wing swivel-eyed conservative! Makes sense, right?

Makes you wanna cry.

[zoegirl]

Same here