Pimping Jesus: consumerism and the red-light gospel

[Jac3510]

Are you saying intellectual belief is the same as saving faith?

The distinction between "head faith" and "heart faith" is a fairly recent innovation. The Hebrews saw no difference. The question was simply whether or not you believed that God was telling the truth. Consider Gen. 15:6. Abraham is there "saved" on account of his faith. What did he believe? That God was capable of doing what He said He would--namely, give him a son in his old age.

If a person believes that Jesus is the Christ (that is, the Guarantor of Eternal Life), the Son of God (that is, God in the flesh)--if they believe that testimony about Jesus, which is God's own testimony--then that person has eternal life. So says John 20:31 and all the other verses I have been citing, anyway . . .

Are you saying that John 3:16 and other such verses are OK to take out of context. How about, 'believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.'

I already told you--show me where in the context those verses DON'T mean that if a person believes then they are saved. I could walk through the context of each one and show you that is EXACTLY what they mean, but I won't for time's sake. So, again, if you think that they DO NOT mean that, then show me in the context where it says they don't. Otherwise, I urge you to believe God.

Yes, everyone who believes has eternal life. As long as belief is consistent with the what the whole counsel of God says. Even the devil believes, no? It is not whoever believes about him. But whoever beleives IN Him.

Funny . . . I don't see "believe in the whole counsel of God" anywhere in Scripture, do you? Tell me, why are you so intent on adding extra biblical ideas to the biblical text? First it was a distinction between head and heart faith; now its the whole counsel of God . . . John 3:16 just says that if we believe in Jesus--the One who was Given for our sins--then we have eternal life.

As far as Satan believing, show me in Scripture where demons are offered salvation. As far as I can tell, salvation is only offered to humans.

That is the most basic understanding. A change of mind. But that definition in and of itself is not repentance. I gave you an example of how someone sees their own sin. If they do not come to a belief that their sin has put them at enmity with God, then why would they embrace a Savior? It's like throwing a life preserver to a man who doesn't think he is drowning. To make it clear, I don't think that salvation is conditioned on us stopping our sin, but I do beleive that true salvation produces a sanctifying work that continues. And yes there is scripture to back that up. Ephesians 2:8 says by grace through faith. But it doesn't stop there. Eph. 2:10.

Again, I agree that a person must recognize their sin before they can be saved, but not for the reason you do. You make it an act of the will--somebody will not come to God for salvation until they see that they are so lost in their sins. I submit to you that is something that most Christians don't even get. That is something you come to realize--just how bad you really are--through the long process of discipleship.

Where I believe a person must recognize their sin is in the logical aspect of Jesus as Christ. In order to believe that Jesus is the Christ, I have to know what that means. If I know that it means that He is the One who guarantees eternal life, then I have to know what eternal life is. Knowing that, I either believe that Jesus is the only one who guarantees life or I don't. Believing that He is the only one is "seeing my need for salvation." Believing that there are other ways of salvation is to effectively call God a liar.

Regarding Eph. 2:10, you are AGAIN reading into the text something that isn't there. The verse says that we are created for good works--that is a purpose statement. The REASON we are saved is to display God's grace, both in our salvation and in our works. Does that mean that we will necessarily DO those good works? Notice the text . . . "that we would walk in them." It does NOT say "that we will walk in them."

Against this, you are directly contradicting other Scripture. What about the people who Paul turned over for the destruction of their flesh--the believers who are so evil that God has to take them home early. Are THEY walking in the works God called them to? Of course not. Therefore, Eph. 2:10 cannot be taken as an ironclad promise that we WILL walk in good works. It means only what it says: that the PURPOSE of our salvation is that we might go on to do good works.

I think BW tackled that and did a much better job. I agree it is a tough and puzzling question. I KNOW that my relationship with sin is different than before I had salvation. I don't know that I can explain that mystery. Regarding David as an example. I honestly don't know. I know that he was under the Law. He was not trusting in these NT verses you are saying, because they had not yet been revealed.

So you believe that God would call an unbeliever "a man after His own heart" (1 Sam. 13:14)?

Jlay, when you find that your position forces to make such statements, perhaps it is a good indicator that you should reconsider it? Again, look to your own self. You admitted that you have hated post-salvation. Thus, you have admitted that you have murdered post-salvation. If YOU can murder and still be saved, why can't anyone else? What makes you different?

See now you lose me. You say someone can not be saved although they have trusted Christ, but have distortions on 'faith alone.' But at the same time, you can tell someone that they are saved, who has rejected any notion of a past confession they made.

Where did I say that a person cannot be saved although they have trusted Christ? Jlay, my entire argument is that is the ONLY way to be saved. Unfortunately, most people don't believe that. They don't trust Christ. They trust Christ plus other things. They don't believe that Jesus is the Guarantor of Eternal Life. They see Him as someone who will help them earn it, who will pick up the slack for what they don't do themselves.

The bottom line is that if you don't trust Christ ALONE for your salvation then you don't believe the Gospel. People who think they can lose their salvation don't believe the Gospel. People who think that works play a part in salvation don't believe the Gospel. People who don't know that they have eternal life for whatever reason (i.e., they don't have enough works to prove it yet, or they have too much sin in their life to really be saved) don't believe the Gospel.

I don't know how to make it any clearer. I think I have made it clear. At least CSLL gets what I am saying. She may not agree. Most don't. But at least she gets it.

I think you are trying real hard to defend an argument. But I think you are making an obvious fallacy. In talking in general terms we can use the word 'god.' And yes it has a very broad understanding. Higher power, creator, etc. I agree. But now you want to apply that to a personal loving relationship and what muslims 'feel.' I don't think that is reasonable.
Regarding Romans 10:2, you are using a scriptural truth, broadly applied to prove your point. They, the Jews, had CORRECT revelation to base that upon. I have no doubt that Muslims are passionate and zealous. They are also wrong.

You are not dealing with my argument, Jlay. Every word that has meaning has a reference. If a word doesn't have a reference it has no meaning. The word "fluhg" has no meaning because it has no reference. The word "square-circle" has no meaning because it has no reference. The only reason the word "God" has meaning is because it has a definite reference.

You say that Muslims talk about God and claim they love God, but while in the first case, they are correct (they do talk about Him), in the second place, they are wrong. Why are they wrong? The reference is precisely the same. If you are going to be logically consistent, you may as well say that no Muslim has ever talked about God. Only Christians can do that. But if only Christians can talk about God, then NO ONE can be saved, because in order to be saved, you must first believe that God IS!

BUT AGAIN, if you are going to INSIST on arguing with the illustration, then go to Rom. 10:12. The Jews loved God--by your admission, they same God you do, due to their proper revelation (question: in the Bible, don't Muslims have the same revelation you, the Jews, and I do? And don't they broadly consider the Bible as God's Word, only distorted by men? Thus, wouldn't they say the God of the Bible is their God, only they understand Him better because they have His corrected Word? Again--same God, for they have the same revelation, just as the Jews of the first century had). Now, if they loved God but were not saved, THEN MY POINT IS PROVEN. There is NOTHING in your experience that you can point to that ONLY you have as a Christian and upon which you can base the assurance of your salvation. Everything you experience as a Christian can be experienced by a non-Christian.

Again, let me summarize my position in all this text back and forth:

We cannot look at anyone's works--either good or bad--or lack of works--either good or bad--and make any judgment call about their salvation, and that includes ourselves. There is NO Scriptural guarantee that all "true Christians" (TM) will produce good works. In fact, there are many Scriptures that warn us against not producing good works, which presumes the possibility--indeed, the probability--that many of us will produce nothing.

How, then, can we know if we are saved? By simply asking ourselves if we have ever believed the Gospel, which is that God sent His One and Only Son to save us, and that He, being our Savior, is the One who guarantees us eternal life. We either believe THAT--that JESUS ALONE guarantees eternal life--or we don't. There are many ways not to. You can believe that Jesus is one of many ways. You can believe that Jesus plus something else (works, baptism, repentance, prayer, asking Jesus into your heart, church membership, continuing in the faith, perseverance, etc.). But however you go about not believing, disbelief is disbelief.

Either turn to Christ alone or not. Your choice, my friend. But you can't have it both ways--you can't say that Christ alone saves and then turn around and say that other things will necessarily follow that salvation, for then, assurance is based on something other than Christ, which ends up denying the very Christ you claim to trust alone.

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OK, CSLL:

So much of what is being asked or talked about isn't salvation, it's sanctification. If I went totally by what you say here, that I could do whatever I wanted while having faith - I would just go out and sin more (why not?). Yet, that's not what the gospel is about either (and since becoming saved, I don't want to, generally). The gospel is about becoming free - free from being a slave to sin.

You know, when you start getting the same responses Paul got, you know you must be doing something right! He was asked the same question, which he answered in Rom. 6:1. Yes, you CAN get saved and "just go out and sin more." You can do that and still "go to heaven." Why? Because works have NOTHING to do with salvation.

As to why you shouldn't, there are lots of reasons. Fear of discipline in this life, loss of rewards in the next, the desire to please God, the desire to be blessed in this life, the desire to receive rewards in the next, the desire to see others come to know Christ that they may be saved, the desire for joy and peace . . . there are dozens of reasons why we should not sin, some negative and some positive. But NONE of those reasons have anything to do with whether or not you are really saved.

And yes, the Gospel is about becoming free--even free from being a slave to sin. But it is more than that. It says that you ARE free whether you choose to act like it or not (Rom. . Christians can behave as if they are still a slave to sin, my friend. But beyond sin, it is also about being free to worship God in spirit and in truth, about being free to experience abundant life, about being free to serve God, about being free from guilt and condemnation, and still so much more.

Don't belittle the Gospel by making something as small as a remedy for sin. Yes, it is that, but it is so much more. Yet just like many people don't live an abundant life, suffer under guilt and condemnation, and get stuck in religiosity despite their freedom from these things, still some people--many of the same, I would bet--also are not living as if they are free from their sin. Genuine believers living in perpetual sin . . . very possible. Sadly, the longer we as a Church refuse to acknowledge that as a real threat, the longer it will be before we begin to remedy this terrible problem that is absolutely plaguing the Church today.

Jesus said to obey Him. Further, sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit, and our willingness to accept His work in us. This will change us. It's not a matter of doing "works" in order to be saved, it's a matter of being willing to become more Holy through the work of God's Holy Spirit. Jesus commands us: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt 5:48). The only way we can do that is with God's guidance and help, and we have to be willing to accept that help; if your will is to keep on sinning, then you are not going the direction that Jesus called us as believers to go in. But whether a person is saved or not who keeps living a willfully sinful life, who seems no different after being saved, is between them and God.

I agree with every word of this. The problem I have--which I opened this discussion with--is when people confuse THIS issue of sanctification (which is predicated on continued faith in Jesus) with justification. When people look at someone else and see that they are NOT obeying Jesus, either in word, thought, deed, or faith, and then go on to conclude that they can't really be saved because all genuine Christians are sanctified, I have to object. Such a statement is nothing more than a works based Gospel, and the person who makes it, I question as to whether or not they have understood the Gospel themselves.

Eternal security is a beautiful thing. The sooner we embrace it, the sooner we can establish a real basis on which to live our Christian lives. We no longer serve God out of fear of proving we aren't really saved. We serve Him because we KNOW we are saved. We serve Him because we KNOW that even if we fall away, we are still secure, and that gives us the confidence to try. We try because we know that if we fail, we are still accepted in His eyes. Eternal security provides the only basis for the real Christian life, the one that could even possibly allow us to "be perfect."

I am simply begging you all to stop linking works with justification, either as a prerequisite (which I don't think any of you year do) or as a post-requisite, which I see much of in our discussion.

God bless

[ageofknowledge]

Hebrews 10:26-31

26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29. Of how much sorer punishment (worse punishment), suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

In Jac's worldview; however, the Christian who denies Christ and walks away forever from the faith to become a militant atheist evangelist actively working against Christianity/the Gospel and engaging in every immoral sinful activity known to man to show their conversion to atheism is a true one and as a means to throw off any remaining influence of the faith they once believed whom never repents but dies in that state has a mansion in heaven waiting for them (which they of their own free choice have come to a point where they don't believe in nor want it even if it exists).

It's easy to see that men like Adoph Hitler and Karl Marx were not authentic born again believers so their abandonment of Christianity comes as no surprise but men like Charles Templeton (Co-founder of Youth for Christ International) actually were saved before they fell away (his eventual final rejection of his faith before he died is 'Farewell to God : my reasons for rejecting the Christian faith').

While God's salvation and security is eternal in that He never removes it and you don't have to work for it, Jac's just wrong, imo, that a person doesn't have the freedom of choice to walk away from it. Of course they do. Some who leave, repent and return to it and it waits for them. These are really a type of backslider who repents. But others walk away from it and sin past the point where they ever want to. These are the ones the author of Hebrew talks about. Interestingly though, if they can repent they are forgiven and salvation remains. This goes for those who don't even feel they can repent anymore because they have gone too far. If you want to repent, you can repent and have not gone too far. This is because God is drawing you to repentence and you should repent. All can be forgiven and you continue forward wiser and stronger. The person we are talking about here will never again want to. God no longer is drawing them back. Fortunately, this is extremely rare. I've only heard a handful of cases like this. In almost every situation I'm aware of you simply have a backslidden sinning Christian that has become deceived and fallen into error following scientology, mormonism, islam, etc... or claiming they don't know anymore (e.g. agnostic) or maybe even they are adhering to atheism. God's is drawing them back to repentence and they can and should repent.

[cslewislover]

And yes, the Gospel is about becoming free--even free from being a slave to sin. But it is more than that. It says that you ARE free whether you choose to act like it or not (Rom. . Christians can behave as if they are still a slave to sin, my friend. But beyond sin, it is also about being free to worship God in spirit and in truth, about being free to experience abundant life, about being free to serve God, about being free from guilt and condemnation, and still so much more.

Don't belittle the Gospel by making something as small as a remedy for sin. Yes, it is that, but it is so much more. Yet just like many people don't live an abundant life, suffer under guilt and condemnation, and get stuck in religiosity despite their freedom from these things, still some people--many of the same, I would bet--also are not living as if they are free from their sin. Genuine believers living in perpetual sin . . . very possible. Sadly, the longer we as a Church refuse to acknowledge that as a real threat, the longer it will be before we begin to remedy this terrible problem that is absolutely plaguing the Church today.

What about not grieving the Holy Spirit? What about approaching God with fear and trembling? I agree with you that we can be discouraged about our guilt over sin and become ineffective. And I don't view the gospel as simply a remedy for sin - God himself said it helps us be free of it, which will help us to be closer to Him. And I take that as a personal closeness, not a distant, when-I'm-in-heaven closeness. I challenge you*--go out and commit adultery, or murder--and tell me what your personal relationship with Jesus is like after that (temporarily, I'm talking about). Maybe you don't know what that can be like, having a break in your personal closeness with the Lord.

What your saying can be just as damaging to the church, for those who don't fathom what you're getting at. It just sounds like you're saying that people can act any way they want and still be saved. Yet, then there would be no reason to be saved in the first place. Lol. If I could keep on sinning and be OK with my maker, then why did Jesus even come around? What do I need a savior for? We fell from grace because of disobedience, and Jesus came to change that. Are we then supposed to keep on being disobedient? No. But the Lord will forgive us still, yes, when we do sin.

* For the record, I'm not advocating adultery or murder as tests.

[Jac3510]

What about not grieving the Holy Spirit? What about approaching God with fear and trembling? I agree with you that we can be discouraged about our guilt over sin and become ineffective. And I don't view the gospel as simply a remedy for sin - God himself said it helps us be free of it, which will help us to be closer to Him. And I take that as a personal closeness, not a distant, when-I'm-in-heaven closeness. I challenge you*--go out and commit adultery, or murder--and tell me what your personal relationship with Jesus is like after that (temporarily, I'm talking about). Maybe you don't know what that can be like, having a break in your personal closeness with the Lord.

Where did you get the impression that I said that just because we are saved we always have great fellowship with God? On the contrary, one of the many reasons to avoid sin is that it does break our fellowship with Him. But breaking fellowship is not the same thing as losing your salvation.

What your saying can be just as damaging to the church, for those who don't fathom what you're getting at. It just sounds like you're saying that people can act any way they want and still be saved. Yet, then there would be no reason to be saved in the first place. Lol. If I could keep on sinning and be OK with my maker, then why did Jesus even come around? What do I need a savior for? We fell from grace because of disobedience, and Jesus came to change that. Are we then supposed to keep on being disobedient? No. But the Lord will forgive us still, yes, when we do sin.

Again, you are reading into my words. I never said that you can keep on sinning and be OK with your Maker. I said that you can keep on sinning and still be saved. If you sin, there will be, of course, many consequences--consequences for you, for your family, for your friends, and for your church; consequences in this life and in the next.

I'm just saying that none of those consequences include Hell--not for yourself, anyway., In the meantime, I'll take people potentially misunderstanding me as more evidence that I am right on this. After all, they had the same misunderstanding when Paul preached. In fact, I wold suggest that if no one has ever had this misunderstanding, then you are not preaching the Gospel at all.

In Jac's worldview; however, the Christian who denies Christ and walks away forever from the faith to become a militant atheist evangelist actively working against Christianity/the Gospel and engaging in every immoral sinful activity known to man to show their conversion to atheism is a true one and as a means to throw off any remaining influence of the faith they once believed whom never repents but dies in that state has a mansion in heaven waiting for them (which they of their own free choice have come to a point where they don't believe in nor want it even if it exists).

With reference to Heb. 10:24-27, the penalty is never said to be Hell. Where did you get the idea? For the record, I have a sermon on this very passage where I explain why THIS is the passage that should scare all Christians the most, not because it warns them of the danger of their going to Hell (such is not possible), but because it warns them of the very real danger of very real, and very harsh, discipline both in this life and the next.

Further, I never said that such a believer will have "a mansion" in heaven. Contrary to that, I expressly stated in my reply to CSLL that such a life will lead to the loss of eternal rewards. If you are going to have a discussion with me, AoK, then consider all my words. If you are going to attribute positions to me that I don't hold, why should I waste my time trying to clarify myself with you? I imagine that you would appreciate the courtesy of being taken in context. I expect the same kindness in return . . . it is that whole Golden Rule, thing. Hey, if you don't keep it, you just might be proving that you are too sinful to really be saved!

It's easy to see that men like Adoph Hitler and Karl Marx were not authentic born again believers

Based on what? Their actions? Do you REALLY think you are any less evil than them? if so, then you and I have found the fundamental disagreement between us. That you would have the arrogance to think that you are any less evil shows your own misunderstanding of your position before God.

so their abandonment of Christianity comes as no surprise but men like Charles Templeton (Co-founder of Youth for Christ International) actually were saved before they fell away (his eventual final rejection of his faith before he died is 'Farewell to God : my reasons for rejecting the Christian faith').

And yet Templeton died an unbeliever. Thus, my original point stands vindicated by your own words. NOTHING you do, not even the loss of faith, can lead anyone--others or yourself--to decide that you were never saved.

While God's salvation and security is eternal in that He never removes it and you don't have to work for it, Jac's just wrong, imo, that a person doesn't have the freedom of choice to walk away from it.

Then you don't believe the Gospel. Jesus offers everlasting life based on faith alone. You believe in conditional life based on continued faith. You are trusting Jesus for a promise he never made is no different way than any other unbeliever does. And before you start freaking out about how DARE I suggest you aren't a Christian, let me make two points:

1. I'm not suggesting you aren't saved. If you believed the Gospel at any point in your life, then you are as saved as anyone has ever been, despite the fact that you do not believe the Gospel right now (eternal security, baby!).

2. Before you get offended, ask yourself if JWs or Mormons should be offended if you tell them that they don't believe the Gospel. Truth is truth. It isn't up to me what the Gospel is. It is up to Jesus. If your doctrine is not aligned with His, then the problem is with you, not with me. I would simply encourage you to reconsider the words of Christ and decide to believe Him.

Of course they do. Some who leave, repent and return to it and it waits for them. These are really a type of backslider who repents. But others walk away from it and sin past the point where they ever want to. These are the ones the author of Hebrew talks about. Interestingly though, if they can repent they are forgiven and salvation remains. This goes for those who don't even feel they can repent anymore because they have gone too far. If you want to repent, you can repent and have not gone too far. This is because God is drawing you to repentence and you should repent. All can be forgiven and you continue forward wiser and stronger. The person we are talking about here will never again want to. God no longer is drawing them back. Fortunately, this is extremely rare. I've only heard a handful of cases like this. In almost every situation I'm aware of you simply have a backslidden sinning Christian that has become deceived and fallen into error following scientology, mormonism, islam, etc... or claiming they don't know anymore (e.g. agnostic) or maybe even they are adhering to atheism. God's is drawing them back to repentence and they can and should repent.

Your position offers NO assurance of salvation. How do you know that you will remain faithful until death? How do you know that you won't lose your faith? You don't. Therefore, you don't know where you will spend eternity. You deny the assurance of salvation, which is to deny the reality of faith itself. In the end, you are trusting, in some sense, in yourself to save you. So long as YOU are so great and awesome that you can maintain your faith, then you get to be saved. You are better than those nasty people who just were not as strong as you--the ones who didn't make it, who lost their faith. Only the strong can be saved, and praise be to you, you are one of the strong (hopefully!).

Like I said, AoK, salvation is by faith in Christ, not by faith in Christ plus anything else, including yourself. I would STRONGLY encourage you to place your faith in Him, not in your own faith.

God bless

[ageofknowledge]

I have placed my faith in Him. I am saved. And it's not dependent on you, your theology, your interpretation of scripture, or anything you've said. Furthermore, nothing you've said changes the fact that if a believer doesn't willfully and permanently reject their salvation and sin past the point of ever being drawn back to repentance then they have every assurance of heaven.

[Jac3510]

If you don't know the future, how do you know that you won't "willfully and permanently reject their salvation and sin past the point of ever being drawn back to repentance"?

[ageofknowledge]

If you don't know the future, how do you know that you won't "willfully and permanently reject their salvation and sin past the point of ever being drawn back to repentance"?

Each person makes that choice for themself. It's extremely rare for a Christian to choose that path knowing where it leads. I've only heard of it to be honest. I've never even seen it. Eventually there will come a falling away that precedes the rise of the anti-christ. Authentic believers will denounce God's truth and turn to a false doctrine instituting a total abdication of their Christian faith. It will be an abandonment of the Word unlike anything that has ever happened in the history of Christianity. They will take the mark of the beast. These people are not going to heaven Jac.

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: 'If ANYONE worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. This calls for patient endurance on the part of THE SAINTS who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus' " (Rev. 14:9-12).

[Jac3510]

You didn't answer my question. How do YOU know that YOU will never fall away permanently?

[ageofknowledge]

You didn't answer my question. How do YOU know that YOU will never fall away permanently?

Yes I did. You didn't accept my answer because it doesn't synch with your calivinistic model. http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php? ... view&id=80

[Jac3510]

I'm not a calvinist (I reject all five points, and their eschatology). I asked how you know you will never fall away. You didn't answer that. You said it is a choice. Are you saying that you simply will choose to never fall away? How do you know you will never change your mind? How do you know what you will be thinking in ten or twenty years?

[ageofknowledge]

I'm not a calvinist (I reject all five points, and their eschatology). I asked how you know you will never fall away. You didn't answer that. You said it is a choice. Are you saying that you simply will choose to never fall away? How do you know you will never change your mind? How do you know what you will be thinking in ten or twenty years?

I'm sticking with my position because I believe it's the right one scripturally. If I was so colossally evil and stupid to choose to reject God's provision for salvation permanently, exactly as those going to hell do, then stick a fork in me: I'm done.

It might tickle the ears to believe you can choose to discard Christianity like a used tissue and go your own way forever never repenting and God will open heaven to you afterwards but it's not scriptural. You have to approach scripture myoptically twisting it to that biased conclusion to get it to say that.

[Jac3510]

I'm not asking you to abandon your position. I am asking you a question ABOUT your position. Since you acknowledge that some genuine believers have left the faith (i.e., Templeton)--since you say it is a matter of personal choice--how do YOU know that YOU will never make that choice? Do you know your own future?

[ageofknowledge]

I'm not asking you to abandon your position. I am asking you a question ABOUT your position. Since you acknowledge that some genuine believers have left the faith (i.e., Templeton)--since you say it is a matter of personal choice--how do YOU know that YOU will never make that choice? Do you know your own future?

If I remain in the faith, I'm going to heaven. If I abandon it and never return to it, I'm not. This is my understanding. I'm not holding to it to be difficult. I can defend it. Will I have a different understanding in 20 years as I stay in scripture? It's possible. Or my current position will grow. Only time will tell. I can be very assertive Jac but you should know that I do try to keep an open mind for other's positions even when I debate them. It doesn't always come through though.

"3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" 4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." -Matthew 24: 3-13

"45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." -Matthew 24: 45-51

[Jac3510]

If I remain in the faith, I'm going to heaven. If I abandon it and never return to it, I'm not. This is my understanding. I'm not holding to it to be difficult. I can defend it. Will I have a different understanding in 20 years as I stay in scripture? It's possible. Or my current position will grow. Only time will tell. I can be very assertive Jac but you should know that I do try to keep an open mind for other's positions even when I debate them. It doesn't always come through though.

I'm not asking you if you will change your position. I am not asking you to defend your position now. I am asking you, in light of your position, how do you know that you will still be faithful in twenty years?

Again, assuming your position is true, how do you know that you will still have faith in Christ in twenty years (or however much longer God allows you to live on this earth)? Isn't it true that you hope you still believe--you think you will still believe--you even expect you will still believe, but that you do not KNOW you will still believe?

[jlay]

Thus, you have admitted that you have murdered post-salvation. If YOU can murder and still be saved, why can't anyone else? What makes you different?

Did I say that? no. And further, this doesn't appear as if you are trying to communicate some theological truth, but that this is only an argument where you are trying to corner someone into accepting your postion.

Is it belief or trust? Even the devil and his demons believe. I can't tell you how many people I have met and witnessed to who have intellectual belief. They don't deny anything about Christ. They just don't trust IN Him for salvation.

What does IN Him mean? I think you are reducing the gospel down to a theology that the whole counsel does not communicate. Apparently we are to understand the scripture in context except for where it suits our agenda. I totally understand what you believe. I believe there is so much contained IN Him, and this is why Jesus is NEVER recorded as saying John 3:16 in a public setting. Instead he said things like, 'But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.' In fact it is actually quite surprising to see there isn't any red letter scripture where Jesus makes a blanket statement regarding salvation in a public setting. John 3:16 was a private, one on one. Don't misunderstand me, I am not downplaying what IS said in John 3:16, only pointing out that context is key, and nothing is in the sciptures by accident.

On the surface we can both say that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone. I don't believe works add to the sacrifice. I don't beleive a saved simply person stumbles into sin, and loses their salvation, like a key falling through a hole in their pocket. If we are truly saved, we are truly saved. It is God who saves us, and God who keeps us.

If we look at the life of Christ and His teachings recorded in the scriptures, then I would find it hard to reduce everything down to these verses out of context. This is the same thing people have done with salvation verses to come to the conclusion that all people are saved, even those who have not trusted IN him. For example, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people." (1 Titus 2:11) Now, I believe that Jesus died for all. But that doesn't mean I believe all will be saved. Why? The whole counsel. Jesus says, 'but whoever does not believe stands condemned already.' (John 3:18)

What is our response to the knowledge of what is IN him? In Him I KNOW that I am a murderer, a liar, a wretch. In Him I know that God is Holy above anything I can fathom. In Him I know that because of my utter depravity, I am an enemy of God in my mind through wicked works. In Him I know that God must give justice to all evil doers, and punish iniquity wherever it is found. In Him I know that God predestined a plan of redemption, to atone for my sin, and wash me clean, so that I might be presented before Him without blemish. In Him I know that there is salvation in no other name. In Him I know the promise of the Holy Spirit, and that we are no longer slaves to sin. And that through this indwelling I can have a renewed mind, transformed with the ability to discern the will of God, and desire to live it. In Him I know that faith is alive, not dead, and that faith is not a date on a calendar. Faith is a response to Him and who He is. Not that I beleive about Him, but I beleive IN Him. And that In Him is life, and apart from Him I can do nothing.
Even in my earliest stages as a new believer, the reality of all this was planted. Even when I didn't have the verses memorized or all the theology down pat, I know that what God planted was real.

Is there a difference in beleiving about Him and trusting IN Him? Is there a head belief and heart belief? Romans 10: 9-13

example. A man puts on an archery display. With preceision he shoots his arrows at his targets, never missing the mark. he places apples on a stand, and from 20 feet he repeatedly strikes the target dead center. The crowd watches in amazement. He turns to them and ask, "How many of you believe I can shoot one of these apples off of your head without hitting you?" All of the crowd, impressed by his marksmanship eagerly raise their hands. "Ok, how many of you are willing to put that belief into practice, and trust me with a demonstration?"