Women in the Church and other things

[Anonymous]

It's this fellow who thinks the Bible should be accomodated to fit our times, i.e. on issues like homosexuality and the like. I have said that God's word can't just be altered like that, but he says it can. One of the reasons he give is about this verse:

But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head: for that is even all one, as if she were shaven.

"And since we obviously don't follow what Paul writes there, we can have different opinions on what's right and wrong than we had before," he says.

Firstly, even if it's true this about women with uncovered heads(I'm not an expert here), that does certainly not mean we can change other things as well. If something's wrong, it does not mean we can do even more wrong things!

And secondly, it doesn't seem as crystal clear what Paul meant here, as opposed to what is written about many of the other issues debated over. But he just says "just read what it(the verse) says. It's clear. So we can accomodate the Bible".

I think I've read an article concerning this, and other similiar verses, but I can't remember where. Anyone care to explain?

[Mastermind]

In my church, men aren't supposed to wear any hats and women have to(although it's not really enforced). It sucks to be a guy in the winter.

[Poetic_Soul]

The verse before that, 1 Corith 11:4 tells you that if a man prays with his head covered dishonors his head. I can only assume (spiritually speaking) that it means that your hat is blocking the prayer connection between you and God. A woman that preaches, prophesies and prays without a cover is a dishonor as well. My pastor is a woman and she wears no hat, but her covering is her husband or father of the church.

[Anonymous]

I discovered an article on Leadership University's webpages, called "5 Lies the Church Tells Women":

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/5lies.html

Lie #2: A Man Needs to "Cover" a Woman in Her Ministry Activities.

[Mastermind]

The verse before that, 1 Corith 11:4 tells you that if a man prays with his head covered dishonors his head. I can only assume (spiritually speaking) that it means that your hat is blocking the prayer connection between you and God. A woman that preaches, prophesies and prays without a cover is a dishonor as well. My pastor is a woman and she wears no hat, but her covering is her husband or father of the church.

Actually, that was the Corinthians' stance, and Paul rebukes them for it later on. I think...

[kateliz]

Whoa, here! The Bible is God's inerrant Word. We can't pick and choose what we think is right. And that especially just because most Christians don't practice what Paul preached to the Corinthians on this matter! I have thought much about the headcovering and what Paul says about women in the church in general. When I was younger I was passionate about women "equality" with men. Now I understand that these issues have nothing to do with the worth attributed to the two genders, but just the roles God says they are to occupy for both practical and spiritual purposes. The headcovering was symbolic just as baptism is. It also was cultural. Paul stated that if women were to stop wearing them it would shock everyone. Women's loose hair, hair out of a covering, was seen as scandalous because it was attributed to moral laxity and promiscuity. The prostitutes were the ones not wearing headcoverings! This would be practically undesirable because, just as Paul says about anything else that could have this effect, it could cause stumbling blocks to nonbelievers and believers alike. When in Rome do as the Romans do. Well, same goes for all parts of the world where Christians are trying to reach people and grow themselves. As for homosexuality, if anyone read what God's revealed opinion on that disgusting sin is, then they would have a hard time saying His opinion changed over time! It has been supported by many different societies over history, but God has never changed His stance on this. The Bible not being God's Word is another issue.

[Mastermind]

Whoa, here! The Bible is God's inerrant Word. We can't pick and choose what we think is right. And that especially just because most Christians don't practice what Paul preached to the Corinthians on this matter! I have thought much about the headcovering and what Paul says about women in the church in general. When I was younger I was passionate about women "equality" with men. Now I understand that these issues have nothing to do with the worth attributed to the two genders, but just the roles God says they are to occupy for both practical and spiritual purposes. The headcovering was symbolic just as baptism is. It also was cultural. Paul stated that if women were to stop wearing them it would shock everyone. Women's loose hair, hair out of a covering, was seen as scandalous because it was attributed to moral laxity and promiscuity. The prostitutes were the ones not wearing headcoverings! This would be practically undesirable because, just as Paul says about anything else that could have this effect, it could cause stumbling blocks to nonbelievers and believers alike. When in Rome do as the Romans do. Well, same goes for all parts of the world where Christians are trying to reach people and grow themselves. As for homosexuality, if anyone read what God's revealed opinion on that disgusting sin is, then they would have a hard time saying His opinion changed over time! It has been supported by many different societies over history, but God has never changed His stance on this. The Bible not being God's Word is another issue.

Paul never told women what to wear. That was the corinthians, and Paul told them they were wrong.

[kateliz]

Ahem, For a man ought not to have his head covered...the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head...if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God. (1 Corinthians 11:7,10,16) That was Paul speaking, by the way. Read the context too, I have not pulled verses out of it illogically.

[Mastermind]

Sorry, I got a few things mixed up. You're right that Paul DID say that, however, given the context, I don't think women have much to worry about whether they should wear headgear or not.

http://www.tektonics.org/uz/veilwear.html

[Anonymous]

i have many issues with that verse but also in 1 corinthians i stumbled across this a while ago, and it is kinda on topic:
Women should be slient during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. [35] If they have any questions to ask, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings. that is 1 corinthians 14: 34-35 (i typed it word for word from my bible also, it just isn't the worded the same as what the bible verse search site thing has)

I'm not really sure what to think about this either

[Mastermind]

i have many issues with that verse but also in 1 corinthians i stumbled across this a while ago, and it is kinda on topic:
Women should be slient during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. [35] If they have any questions to ask, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings. that is 1 corinthians 14: 34-35 (i typed it word for word from my bible also, it just isn't the worded the same as what the bible verse search site thing has)

I'm not really sure what to think about this either

This is the statement which Paul rebukes later on.

[kateliz]

Where does he do this rebuking? You said he rebuked the headcovering but it turned out you had it wrong. Please bother to look up what you claim is in God's Word! I guess I would like to argue culture and all that just because I'm more comfortable with not following these things. I could deal with the headcovering just fine, and I respect people who practice it, but to not speak in church would be close to impossible for me. I have no husband at home to ask questions to, and I would have more discussing I would like to do than asking of questions. Would that exclude women speaking in less formal gatherings where men are there? And if women can ask questions of their husbands, can they try to correct their husbands if the husband answers with something the woman knows is wrong? I guess if you take verses on this topic far enough you have women nearly completely silent about God! They are only allowed to speak to other women and their daughters. That seems extreme and unjust to me, and I don't that's what God wants. This issue is of great importance to me because God called me to teach of Him, (someday in the actual position of a teacher of some sort,) and I don't know if that'll have to be exclusively to women!

[Mastermind]

Of course it seems unfair, and it is. I'd like to remind you that the bible does not make much differentiation between what seems to be quoting and what seems to be Paul's advice.


[34] the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.
[35] If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[36] What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached?
[37]

If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.

[38] If any one does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
[39] So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues;
[40] but all things should be done decently and in order.

That is, as far as I can tell, Paul rebuking them. Paul is telling them to let anybody who has something to say to say it. God does not discriminate by sex as to who He calls upon. There have been female prophets in the past, and to suggest that God Himself would suggest that only men are worthy of speakin His word is pure blasphemy. JP Holding seems to agree, and he researches this for a living.

Might want to go over his entire list if you think women are treated unfairly:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/packham02.html#WOMEN


About the head covering, I hate having to take my hat off when it's cold in church, but I have to anyway. It's hardly discriminating against women, as I usually keep my head covered and having to keep it uncovered in church is an inconvenience to me.

[bizzt]

Brothers and Sisters in Christ we also have to remember the people Paul were speaking to. Women in this City or Church were acting as if they were the head of the Church. They were so Controlling that the Men were shall we say the Women and the Women were the Men. The roles were reversed. Paul wanted to make sure the Women knew where their place was in the Marriage. It was not that Women are not Equals but that the Roles are not the same!

Thanks
Tim

[kateliz]

Thanks both of you; Mastermind for getting me to do hours of research on what the Bible says in response to that link, and Tim for providing historical reference I've never heard of that puts things in better perspective. I'd like to hear a lot more detail on that.

How would that cause Paul to say, (no I don't believe he's quoting someone else here,) that women should wear the covering and be completely silent during church based on purely spiritual reasoning? In their "church" gatherings they did not sit under one pastor who was the only one teaching, they did as the old Quakers did- gathered together and let the Holy Spirit speak through people via their gifts. I believe some of the Plymoth Brethren do something like this too. Since that was how their meetings went, why would he tell women to be completely silent, especially if God may want to speak something through them? And when would they use their gifts of prophesy then?

And I still hold to that women shouldn't have an office in the church where they "rule" over men like to be an elder. The New Testament seems to only mention only men in this role. Or am I ignorant on this one as well? How about take the role of a teacher over men? I've already practiced this plenty of times and it doesn't seem spiritually uncomfortable, but it hasn't been formal and I think I'd feel uncomfortable with that. My discernment isn't pricked at casual teaching, but it is at women pastors, (or deacons inappropriately taking some of the pastor's roles.) I've been at a wedding with a woman pastor and that was just wrong, and a female deacon helped lead a reviewal, (wake,) along side of the pastor, and that seemed wrong as well. What's biblical if my understanding of the verses on this is incorrect?

I'm gathering that women can be deacons, prophets, and can teach men though maybe not in an authoritative position, maybe apostles depending on exactly what apostles do, but that they shouldn't be elders or pastors. I believe women can help a pastor shepherd believers, but again not in an authoritative position as a pastor.