So you believe in God, what about your family/wife/husband?

[qqMOARpewpew]

Sorry, where in the bible does it say god can not be in the presence of sin? Sin might not be able to exist in the presence of God, but god can do anything right? Your saying god couldn't cleanse all people of sins? Who are you to question the countless other gods? We can not comprehend any of them.

Why would God cleanse all people and then force them to stay with Him? If they don't want to be with Him they will sin against Him and not accept the cleansing Blood of Christ. The Bible says sin cannot exist within the prescence of God. If we become sinful then sin is part of us, and thusly we cannot exist in God's prescence cause we are in sin. And the other gods fail, epically. I could go on for hours and hours about that, but I have no desire to do so. Perhaps another time on that.

Why did god force everyone whose alive into life, where he knew they would sin? Oh but thats right we arent capible of questioning god.

Where in the bible does it say sin cannot exist in the presence of god? Even if it says that god is capible of being in the presence of sin/sinner, or removing their sin, or not giving them an afterlife, or giving them a eternal dream, or throwing them in a matrix reality, or throwing them in a body to try again, or to make their soul into a star to burn the sin away, or to remove all possiblity of sin in the universe, or make sin not sin.

[Gabrielman]

Why did god force everyone whose alive into life, where he knew they would sin? Oh but thats right we arent capible of questioning god.

Gee, maybe it had something to do with that whole rebellion, where some jumped up little tart thought that he could be God. Then he tempted mankind into sinning against God. Now we are here and life is a choice, God or no. Hell is to be away from God, I would call heaven hell if He were not there. You get this time to think about it and decide. He didn't just throw us willy nilly here and hoped for the best, no, it was all very carefully thought through. Actuall we were supposed to be in paradise right now, so thank that jerk Lucifer for all this.

Where in the bible does it say sin cannot exist in the presence of god? Even if it says that god is capible of being in the presence of sin/sinner, or removing their sin, or not giving them an afterlife, or giving them a eternal dream, or throwing them in a matrix reality, or throwing them in a body to try again, or to make their soul into a star to burn the sin away, or to remove all possiblity of sin in the universe, or make sin not sin.

To make sin not sin is to turn truth into a lie, and that is not God's nature to do such illogical things. We sin against God if we wish to not be with Him. But that is what Lucifer wants. Sin causes a spiritual death if you die in sin. It seperates you from God. Read the Bible, and you will see time and again where it says that your sin will keep you out of heaven, and to be in the prescence of God is to be in heaven. If God removed the ablity to sin, you would not have free will, nor the choice if you wanted to be with Him or not. Adam and Eve lacked knowledge of sin, they didn't know right from wrong. However they gained knowledge of right and wrong, and tainted the entire human race. You will have an afterlife, that isn't a choice, why, because that is how God made it. Don't like that, oh well, but I for one look forward to paradise. You get one shot, just like everyone else, otherwise this would be like budism. And if that were the case there would be no end to it all, and someday He is going to end it all.

[qqMOARpewpew]

Why did god force everyone whose alive into life, where he knew they would sin? Oh but thats right we arent capible of questioning god.

Gee, maybe it had something to do with that whole rebellion, where some jumped up little tart thought that he could be God. Then he tempted mankind into sinning against God. Now we are here and life is a choice, God or no. Hell is to be away from God, I would call heaven hell if He were not there. You get this time to think about it and decide. He didn't just throw us willy nilly here and hoped for the best, no, it was all very carefully thought through. Actuall we were supposed to be in paradise right now, so thank that jerk Lucifer for all this.

Where in the bible does it say sin cannot exist in the presence of god? Even if it says that god is capible of being in the presence of sin/sinner, or removing their sin, or not giving them an afterlife, or giving them a eternal dream, or throwing them in a matrix reality, or throwing them in a body to try again, or to make their soul into a star to burn the sin away, or to remove all possiblity of sin in the universe, or make sin not sin.

To make sin not sin is to turn truth into a lie, and that is not God's nature to do such illogical things. We sin against God if we wish to not be with Him. But that is what Lucifer wants. Sin causes a spiritual death if you die in sin. It seperates you from God. Read the Bible, and you will see time and again where it says that your sin will keep you out of heaven, and to be in the prescence of God is to be in heaven. If God removed the ablity to sin, you would not have free will, nor the choice if you wanted to be with Him or not. Adam and Eve lacked knowledge of sin, they didn't know right from wrong. However they gained knowledge of right and wrong, and tainted the entire human race. You will have an afterlife, that isn't a choice, why, because that is how God made it. Don't like that, oh well, but I for one look forward to paradise. You get one shot, just like everyone else, otherwise this would be like budism. And if that were the case there would be no end to it all, and someday He is going to end it all.

Well if we can thank lucifer for this, then we can thank god for this mess. God knew what would happened with lucifer. And if god is really god, why would one of his closest angels ever ever try to over throw god?
God; almighty. Morning Star; more powerful than a person i could imagine, but even if he had the strength of 10,000 men god could still destroy lucifer without even trying, am i wrong here? God decided to let lucifer go, and live on earth (there are 8 other planets in this solar system and > a trillion planets in th galaxy but god let lucifer go to earth.) God could easly make it so lucifer could not interveine in the lives of man. God could instantly wipe the heart of all men women and children clean from want to sin. God could also take everyone who is alive, take their souls and bring everyone out of hell and everyone who is supposed to be born in the next thousand years and shove us all in paradise in a moment. If we are supposed to be in paradise it is gods conscious decision for us to not be right now.


If god were all powerful he could make a square-circle. If he can not do illogical things you are tampering with god's free will the same way you say god allows us to sin for the purpose of free will. Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong (ie they didn't know it was wrong to disobey god and eat from the tree) and big old intelligent universe making guy decided to put the tree of knowledge of good and evil the only thing that adam and eve were not allowed to eat in the garden of eden, again he had this whole universe to hide the tree and no one would have to worry about sin. God could have easily NOT made a tree of good and evil, unless he isn't god and needs the tree for some power over man. God could have put the tree in some other dimension. God knew that the snake was in the garden, God knew when the snake was talking to Eve. God would have known when eve decided to take a fruit and god could have been like, "Yo, eve. No frickin way thats my tree." God could have left an angel to watch the tree, god could have made the tree so tall no one could climb it. God consciously decided he wanted to send men to hell, or god isn't god and could not decide.

I for one love zen buddhism (i am not a zen buddhist.) so I'd be fine with that.

[cslewislover]

Curiousness mostly. And I'm agnostic, i have my beliefs but if I experience evidence for contrary beliefs I will change my mind

Sorry, where in the bible does it say god can not be in the presence of sin? Sin might not be able to exist in the presence of God, but god can do anything right? Your saying god couldn't cleanse all people of sins? Who are you to question the countless other gods? We can not comprehend any of them.

If you're an agnostic, then why are you telling us that we can't question other Gods?????????? LOL. Do you have proof that they exist?? If you did, you wouldn't be agnostic. Obviously, a lot of people here have done research into the existence of God and other gods. You speak as if we believe blindly here. You are simply being argumentative. If you have proof that other gods exist, please share it. And I do not believe your first statement, since you seem not only unopen on this forum to learn anything, but you have consistently just stated your own opinions - often with a real lack of detail or evidence - and then have put others down for not understanding you. Read the board purpose and guidelines, if some other mod hasn't banned you by now.

[qqMOARpewpew]

Curiousness mostly. And I'm agnostic, i have my beliefs but if I experience evidence for contrary beliefs I will change my mind

Sorry, where in the bible does it say god can not be in the presence of sin? Sin might not be able to exist in the presence of God, but god can do anything right? Your saying god couldn't cleanse all people of sins? Who are you to question the countless other gods? We can not comprehend any of them.

If you're an agnostic, then why are you telling us that we can't question other Gods?????????? LOL. Do you have proof that they exist?? If you did, you wouldn't be agnostic. Obviously, a lot of people here have done research into the existence of God and other gods. You speak as if we believe blindly here. You are simply being argumentative. If you have proof that other gods exist, please share it. And I do not believe your first statement, since you seem not only unopen on this forum to learn anything, but you have consistently just stated your own opinions - often with a real lack of detail or evidence - and then have put others down for not understanding you. Read the board purpose and guidelines, if some other mod hasn't banned you by now.

Agnostic-atheist-spiritualist thats what I would put down in the box that says what's your religion.
Why are you asking me for proof of gods that neither you or I believe in? And if you need proof for those gods to exists, what is the proof of your god? Now you don't have to anwser that, I don't think you need proof for belief in a god or metaphysical concept. Like I said believe i believe energy is very basic life and the universe is a part of a mega universe system.

I am truly sorry that you feel that I talk like you all believe blindly. I don't mean to honestly.

Find me someone in this thread who hasn't " just stated [their own] opinions." Its a forum, i was under the understanding that that is the point.

I don't see how I have put down anyone anymore than the seasoned members of the board have tried to put me down, and I took no offense to them doing so.

[qqMOARpewpew]

Curiousness mostly. And I'm agnostic, i have my beliefs but if I experience evidence for contrary beliefs I will change my mind

Sorry, where in the bible does it say god can not be in the presence of sin? Sin might not be able to exist in the presence of God, but god can do anything right? Your saying god couldn't cleanse all people of sins? Who are you to question the countless other gods? We can not comprehend any of them.

If you're an agnostic, then why are you telling us that we can't question other Gods?????????? LOL. Do you have proof that they exist?? If you did, you wouldn't be agnostic. Obviously, a lot of people here have done research into the existence of God and other gods. You speak as if we believe blindly here. You are simply being argumentative. If you have proof that other gods exist, please share it. And I do not believe your first statement, since you seem not only unopen on this forum to learn anything, but you have consistently just stated your own opinions - often with a real lack of detail or evidence - and then have put others down for not understanding you. Read the board purpose and guidelines, if some other mod hasn't banned you by now.

Oh and I asked you about questioning the pagan gods because it was taking your question to me earlier (about questioning your god) and turning the questiong back around at you to see how you would anwser.

[jlay]

what cliff, can you show me the cliff?

Yep. Drive by a graveyard, and ask how many of them got out alive. Your death is the only certain thing in your life. Everyday is a push closer to the edge of the cliff. And I am like, "Yo, theres a cliff like right there bro."

Let me get this straight. You don't believe in God because you don't like His program. Best I can tell, that is what you are saying.
"I don't like Obama. I don't agree with his policies. I don't agree with his decisions. I didn't vote for him. etc. etc. Therefore he isn't President of the United States. Therefore he doesn't exist."

Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong

How can you say that? When someone of authority tells you clearly not to do something, are you saying that you don't know the difference between obeying and disobeying?

God could have done a lot of things. But all things work together for the good of God. Even the evil things we don't understand. The tree was part of the plan. Putting in the garden? Yep, part of the plan.

[qqMOARpewpew]

what cliff, can you show me the cliff?

Yep. Drive by a graveyard, and ask how many of them got out alive. Your death is the only certain thing in your life. Everyday is a push closer to the edge of the cliff. And I am like, "Yo, theres a cliff like right there bro."

Let me get this straight. You don't believe in God because you don't like His program. Best I can tell, that is what you are saying.
"I don't like Obama. I don't agree with his policies. I don't agree with his decisions. I didn't vote for him. etc. etc. Therefore he isn't President of the United States. Therefore he doesn't exist."

Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong

How can you say that? When someone of authority tells you clearly not to do something, are you saying that you don't know the difference between obeying and disobeying?

God could have done a lot of things. But all things work together for the good of God. Even the evil things we don't understand. The tree was part of the plan. Putting in the garden? Yep, part of the plan.

My mother died when I was twelve, so I have dealt with death and am quite aware that I am going to die, it could be today. I believe our life ceases at death (no afterlife).

So it is apart of gods plan to put people into life knowing they will go to hell and be tortured for eternity? Why should I worship someone who tortures children (or allows the torture of children) who happen to be born in india/china/islamic countries/a tribe of indians instead of Europe/USA with a christian family?

[jlay]

So it is apart of gods plan to put people into life knowing they will go to hell and be tortured for eternity? Why should I worship someone who tortures children (or allows the torture of children) who happen to be born in india/china/islamic countries/a tribe of indians instead of Europe/USA with a christian family?

First: God doesn't torture anyone, children or adults in Hell. God will not be in Hell, and will not be torturing anyone. I'd challenge you to prove that with biblical evidence.
2nd: God does not send anyone to hell because of where they are born.
3rd: People do not avoid going to hell for being born in a Christian family anymore than someone goes to Hell for being born in an Indian family.
4th: People don't go to hell for being ignorant.

This is a classic argument which attempts to take the spot life off one's own life and shine the light of judgement on God. "How can God send that nice Grandma to Hell, that child, that so-n-so." You are not accountable for the people you will never meet and what they do or do not know. You are accountable for you and what you know.

I believe our life ceases at death (no afterlife).

You are free to believe that. You are also free to be wrong. My concern, based on your posts is that you have rejected Chrisianity because of misguided, antagonistic objections, and not because you have properly sought out the truth through logic, reason and sound doctrine. Since you are alive now, perhaps it would be a good idea to take a step back, wipe the slate clean and get a fresh look.

I'm going to give you a peice of friendly advice. The direction you are heading in with your post is leading towards you being shown the door. Not because we don't want to provide you with answers, but because you are beginning to show antagonistic and belligerent responses. If this is just an opportunity to vent your frustrations till you get asked to leave or banned, so you can say, 'told you so, nothing but a bunch of self-righteous, blah, blah, blah,' then please save yourself some time and move along. If not, let's start here.

You said you grew up 'a Christian.' I've heard that so much, to be honest, I take it with a grain of salt. Are you saying you grew being consistently and continually discipled and trained up in the Bible?

You and I don't know anything about the person in India, but what we do know about ourselves. In your best understanding, what is sin?

[qqMOARpewpew]

So it is apart of gods plan to put people into life knowing they will go to hell and be tortured for eternity? Why should I worship someone who tortures children (or allows the torture of children) who happen to be born in india/china/islamic countries/a tribe of indians instead of Europe/USA with a christian family?

First: God doesn't torture anyone, children or adults in Hell. God will not be in Hell, and will not be torturing anyone. I'd challenge you to prove that with biblical evidence.
2nd: God does not send anyone to hell because of where they are born.
3rd: People do not avoid going to hell for being born in a Christian family anymore than someone goes to Hell for being born in an Indian family.
4th: People don't go to hell for being ignorant.

This is a classic argument which attempts to take the spot life off one's own life and shine the light of judgement on God. "How can God send that nice Grandma to Hell, that child, that so-n-so." You are not accountable for the people you will never meet and what they do or do not know. You are accountable for you and what you know.

I believe our life ceases at death (no afterlife).

You are free to believe that. You are also free to be wrong. My concern, based on your posts is that you have rejected Chrisianity because of misguided, antagonistic objections, and not because you have properly sought out the truth through logic, reason and sound doctrine. Since you are alive now, perhaps it would be a good idea to take a step back, wipe the slate clean and get a fresh look.

I'm going to give you a peice of friendly advice. The direction you are heading in with your post is leading towards you being shown the door. Not because we don't want to provide you with answers, but because you are beginning to show antagonistic and belligerent responses. If this is just an opportunity to vent your frustrations till you get asked to leave or banned, so you can say, 'told you so, nothing but a bunch of self-righteous, blah, blah, blah,' then please save yourself some time and move along. If not, let's start here.

You said you grew up 'a Christian.' I've heard that so much, to be honest, I take it with a grain of salt. Are you saying you grew being consistently and continually discipled and trained up in the Bible?

You and I don't know anything about the person in India, but what we do know about ourselves. In your best understanding, what is sin?

I said god allows children to be tortured in hell. If some Hindu girl lets say 9 years old gets in a car accident and dies, where does she go in god's world? That is what I am talking about. And doesn't god know where a child will be born, as he knows the number of hairs on our head before we're born. Am I wrong about this?

Just as you are free to be wrong. The difference between you and me, I don't claim to be right. I claim only what I believe, but I do not claim to know.
I rejected christianity for the same reason I rejected Judaism, Hindu, Islam, Celtic gods, Shinto, Hindu, etc. I don't see the god as a being/entity/consciousness.

I don't have a name for it but what most people call god I believe is apart of being human, it is the part of the mind people call the heart, it is love (i agree with the bible here), kindness, goodness, spiritual feelings that all of us have. I simply believe it is a natural force not a super natural one. I have another concept some might call pantheism, I call it OM, it is simply that All Things Are One. There is no separation between you, me, and the world around us.
Now this is just what I believe and I don't claim it to be truth.

I grew up catholic going to a catholic school till i was around 7, I went to church every week and loved it. I loved god, I loved the bible I loved going to bible study. That is what I mean when I say I was brought up christian. My parents didn't train me in the bible, but i went to bible study every week and payed attention to it.

Sin, as I have come to understand it is going against the will of god, breaking the divine laws.

[ageofknowledge]

I said god allows children to be tortured in hell. If some Hindu girl lets say 9 years old gets in a car accident and dies, where does she go in god's world? That is what I am talking about. And doesn't god know where a child will be born, as he knows the number of hairs on our head before we're born. Am I wrong about this?

You are wrong about a great many things. It is believed by many religious people that children “inherit” the sins of their parents. Yet, the Bible pointedly and explicitly teaches that such is not the case. In Ezekiel 18:20, the Bible says: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son.” Also, in Exodus 32, Moses pleaded with God to forgive the sins of the Israelites when he said: “Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written. And the Lord said to Moses, 'Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book' ” (Exodus 32:32-33). The Bible is plain in its teaching that babies do not inherit the sins of their parents.

The Bible nowhere teaches that babies go to hell if they die in infancy. Neither does it teach that babies inherit the sins of their parents. Although many skeptics have tried to portray God as an evil tyrant Who condemns innocent children to eternal destruction, their arguments are without merit or any semblance of biblical credence.

Jesus Christ Himself, in the New Testament, stated that little children retain the qualities that make a person eligible to inherit the kingdom of God. We see, then, that infants and small children that die are in a safe state, and will live eternally in heaven.

Now for older children the age a person must be before they are spiritually accountable varys. The setting of a minimum age requirement for conversion is an impossibility because of the differences in the speed with which each individual grows into mental and emotional maturity. The ability to make decisions concerning conversion depends entirely on a person's maturity level, understanding of the gospel, and desire to follow God's way of life. It is God the Father's decision and it is predicated on belief, understanding, and repentance. All three of these are mental conditions and are prerequisites to conversion and baptism. All three are dependent on each other. For a person to have belief, there must be some understanding of what is to be believed.

To say a nine year old Hindu girl that died in a car wreck is going to be tortured in hell by default is a false assertion in my understanding if she has not yet reached the age of accountability and then rejected the divine that she does understand.

[qqMOARpewpew]

I said god allows children to be tortured in hell. If some Hindu girl lets say 9 years old gets in a car accident and dies, where does she go in god's world? That is what I am talking about. And doesn't god know where a child will be born, as he knows the number of hairs on our head before we're born. Am I wrong about this?

You are wrong about a great many things. It is believed by many religious people that children “inherit” the sins of their parents. Yet, the Bible pointedly and explicitly teaches that such is not the case. In Ezekiel 18:20, the Bible says: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son.” Also, in Exodus 32, Moses pleaded with God to forgive the sins of the Israelites when he said: “Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written. And the Lord said to Moses, 'Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book' ” (Exodus 32:32-33). The Bible is plain in its teaching that babies do not inherit the sins of their parents.

The Bible nowhere teaches that babies go to hell if they die in infancy. Neither does it teach that babies inherit the sins of their parents. Although many skeptics have tried to portray God as an evil tyrant Who condemns innocent children to eternal destruction, their arguments are without merit or any semblance of biblical credence.

Jesus Christ Himself, in the New Testament, stated that little children retain the qualities that make a person eligible to inherit the kingdom of God. We see, then, that infants and small children that die are in a safe state, and will live eternally in heaven.

Now for older children the age a person must be before they are spiritually accountable varys. The setting of a minimum age requirement for conversion is an impossibility because of the differences in the speed with which each individual grows into mental and emotional maturity. The ability to make decisions concerning conversion depends entirely on a person's maturity level, understanding of the gospel, and desire to follow God's way of life. It is God the Father's decision and it is predicated on belief, understanding, and repentance. All three of these are mental conditions and are prerequisites to conversion and baptism. All three are dependent on each other. For a person to have belief, there must be some understanding of what is to be believed.

To say a nine year old Hindu girl that died in a car wreck is going to be tortured in hell by default is a false assertion in my understanding if she has not yet reached the age of accountability and then rejected the divine that she does understand.

I wasn't saying that the hindu girl would have inherited her parents sins, but rather sinned herself by not following the first and second commandments.

Well that makes much more sense, so all children (whatever age that would be for the individual) go to heaven if they die?

[ageofknowledge]

If they have not reached the age of accountability, as I defined it, and rejected God (e.g. the divine) as they understand it then they do not go to hell. You are correct.

[qqMOARpewpew]

If they have not reached the age of accountability, as I defined it, and rejected God (e.g. the divine) as they understand it then they do not go to hell. You are correct.

Right on, where were we before we went off on that little spree?

You asked about my understanding of what sin is, I said:
"Sin, as I have come to understand it is going against the will of god, breaking the divine laws."

[jlay]

The bible says very specifically what sin is.
Sin is transgression of the Law. (God's Law) 1 John 3:4
And, "He who knows the good he ought to do and does not do it. To Him it is sin." James 4:17
Paul also wrote, "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." Romans 2:12 And goes on to say, "since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." (Rom 2:15-16)


Notice here that there is a "knowing" involved. That means no one accidently sins. They sin with the knowledge it is wrong. Does a murderer murder without the knowledge that it is wrong? Of course not. Same with rape. And the same with lying, or lust. This is why men HIDE their pornography. They KNOW it is wrong. And we could list a myriad of other transgressions. Sin is a shaking of one's fist in the face of God. When you or I willingly rebel against what we know to be right and wrong, we sin. The word Conscience actually means "With Knowledge." Example: A kid is playing with a baseball and accidently breaks a window. He didn't mean to. It was an accident. Now, same ball, same kid, same window. In an act of anger or mischief, the kid throws the ball through the window, intentionally breaking it."
Is there a difference? Of course there is. The difference is the attitude of the heart.

So it is preposterous to think that God is sending innocent people to punishment. And it is preposterous to think that God is sending people to hell for being ignorant, or being born in the wrong place.

Let me ask you this. Is there a crime that you would say is fitting of Hell? You don't have to describe the crime.
I look forward to you answer and continued discussion.