History of Christianity

[ageofknowledge]

No. That's not true. See you are getting misinformation from your sources. Most of the founding fathers were Christians. The first permanent European colony to survive and flourish in North America was Jamestown and it was populated by Pilgrim protestants. Only some, not most, of the founding fathers were non-Christian deists a result of the influence of Enlightment thought. Deism almost completely declined by around 1800 becoming Unitarianism. It can be shown how Deism/Unitarianism fails scientifically, philosophically, and theologically. Within the church, that position was rejected long before the Enlightenment when the Trinitarian and Christology issues were put to rest.

[qqMOARpewpew]

No. That's not true. See you are getting misinformation from your sources. Most of the founding fathers were Christians. The first permanent European colony to survive and flourish in North America was Jamestown and it was populated by Pilgrim protestants. Only some, not most, of the founding fathers were non-Christian deists a result of the influence of Enlightment thought. Deism almost completely declined by around 1800 becoming Unitarianism. It can be shown how Deism/Unitarianism fails scientifically, philosophically, and theologically. Within the church, that position was rejected long before the Enlightenment when the Trinitarian and Christology issues were put to rest.

Deists:
Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Thomas Paine, James Madison, John Adams, possibly Alexander Hamilton, and Ethan Allen

I live less than 50 miles from jamestown (so its history has been hammered into me since i was 7), yes, they were protestants, but they were NOT the founding fathers, they were loyal subjects to the crown.

Really because the American church complained that none of the early presidents were true Christians:
Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."
And online in other religious forums I have met about an equal number of christians as I have deists, they are well alive today, although they do not have a church and probably aren't properly counted.
Within the church counts for nothing outside of the church.

[ageofknowledge]

There were 204 "Founding Fathers" in total. These are the people who did one or more of the following:

- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of America
- served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress

The religious affiliations of these individuals are summarized below. Obviously this is a very restrictive set of names, and does not include everyone who could be considered an "American Founding Father." But most of the major figures that people generally think of in this context are included using these criteria, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, John Hancock, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and more.


Religious Affiliation of U.S. Founding Fathers:

Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL 204

ALL of them were affiliated with a Christian denomination. All of them. Some of them, in addition to their Christian affiliation held to Deism as their personal faith a product of exposure to Enlightenment thinking. You named 7.

So 204 Founding Fathers - 7 Deists = 197 Christians. There actually were some others who were deists but by FAR most were Christians and ALL identified Christian in association with a Christian denomination.

[qqMOARpewpew]

There were 204 "Founding Fathers" in total. These are the people who did one or more of the following:

- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of America
- served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress

The religious affiliations of these individuals are summarized below. Obviously this is a very restrictive set of names, and does not include everyone who could be considered an "American Founding Father." But most of the major figures that people generally think of in this context are included using these criteria, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, John Hancock, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and more.


Religious Affiliation of U.S. Founding Fathers:

Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL 204

ALL of them were affiliated with a Christian denomination. All of them. Some of them, in addition to their Christian affiliation held to Deism as their personal faith a product of exposure to Enlightenment thinking. You named 7.

So 204 Founding Fathers - 7 Deists = 197 Christians. There actually were some others who were deists but by FAR most were Christians and ALL identified Christian in association with a Christian denomination.

Cool. I never said most of the founding fathers were deist, I said many. 7 of the most prominent being deist, I would say thats many, maybe i should have said a hand full.

Anyway, this is a NOT christian nation and the founding fathers did this on purpose.

[cslewislover]

I don't want to spread misinformation, but I think it was Jefferson himself who said, however, that without a Christian faith and base, the country wouldn't stand. The Declaration of Independence was written with this in mind, which to me is clearly seen if you read it (it speaks of God, our Creator, and Divine Providence . . . and they weren't Jewish). The principles are Christian. They simply didn't want to have a kingdom like before, that controlled religion. But without a Christian view and belief system at it's base, the laws wouldn't work. I'd say this is true. I don't know how our country can really function much longer; I don't see how it functions now, lol (well, IMO, with the way things can't get passed anymore and how like in California nothing ever seems to get done, I'd say it's already reached the nonfunctioning point). I think if the factions in this country were located geographically as they were before the Civil War, our country would end up being divided.

[qqMOARpewpew]

Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time is what is found in the Deceleration of Independence). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.

[cslewislover]

Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time is what is found in the Deceleration of Independence). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.

So? What's your point? Yeah, we need to live like Christians for the country to last and prosper - and Jefferson kept that part in in his bible.

[qqMOARpewpew]

Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time is what is found in the Deceleration of Independence). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.

So? What's your point? Yeah, we need to live like Christians for the country to last and prosper - and Jefferson kept that part in in his bible.

He was not a christian and I doubt he said that statement. I agree with the morals of the bible, I believe as jefferson did, that jesus walked the earth a mortal and his followers added miracles to compete with other gods. That doesn't make me a christian at least not in my book, and the morals from christianity existed before Jesus.

[ageofknowledge]

Anyway, this is a NOT christian nation and the founding fathers did this on purpose.

We have a secular government built on Christian principles. If you remove the Christian principles that undergird the secular government you get something totally different than what the founding fathers intended.

As the nation has stripped away the Christian principles, the government has favored state atheism. This has had a dramatic effect on society. The rise in crime, juvenile rebellion, the breakup of the family and the rise of single parent households, the rise of militant atheism, militant homosexuality, militant feminism, etc... ammoral and immoral individuals all acting for their own selfish interests against the common good. We have begun to see what the future will be without the principles that carried us for over 200 years and it is not a good future we are heading toward.

As for Thomas Jefferson, he was only one of 204+ founding fathers. He was raised as an Anglican, but later influenced by English deists such as Bolingbroke and Shaftesbury, and became a Unitarian. Jefferson did serve as a vestryman in Fredericksville Parish as a young man. As President, Jefferson attended church services in the House of Representatives. After his retirement to Monticello, Jefferson continued to attend church services, riding into Charlottesville to the court-house on horseback carrying a small folding chair.

He was not non-religious and never advocated state atheism. The documents he signed off on perhaps you should read them. You can start with the Declaration of independence of which he was the principle author. Observe the first sentence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." That's not the thinking of an atheist. Everything he ever wrote is filled with Christian thought and principle. He never agreed to what we are seeing today in our government but instead supported maintaining Christian principles in government. Read his writings. It's all there.

You've found the most wayward person in a group of Christians to try to maintain a position that never existed and never should exist.

[jlay]

TJ was one founding father. One.
And TJ was anything but an enemy to Christianity. In fact by today's standards you would probably label him as a religious fanatic. There is no evidence that Jefferson's abridged bible is actually evidence of skepticism. That my friend is a MYTH. Just as those in the time of Columbus thinking the earth was flat. Jefferson, who gave his money to assist missionary work among the Indians, believed his "abridgement of the New Testament for the use of the Indians" would help civilize and educate America's aboriginal inhabitants. Nor did Jefferson cut all miracles from his work, as Beliles points out. While the original manuscript no longer exists, the Table of Texts that survives includes several accounts of Christ's healings.

In fact by today's standards, TJ would have breached the so called wall of sepreration mentioned in his letter, that the Supreme Court erroniously interpreted. Why, just two days after he sent his letter to the Danbury Baptists did President Jefferson attend public worship services in the U.S. Capitol building, something he did throughout his two terms in office? And why did he authorize the use of the War Office and the Treasury building for church services in Washington, D.C.?

[qqMOARpewpew]

Anyway, this is a NOT christian nation and the founding fathers did this on purpose.

We have a secular government built on Christian principles. If you remove the Christian principles that undergird the secular government you get something totally different than what the founding fathers intended.
As the nation has stripped away the Christian principles, the government has favored state atheism. This has had a dramatic effect on society. The rise in crime, juvenile rebellion, the breakup of the family and the rise of single parent households, the rise of militant atheism, militant homosexuality, militant feminism, etc... ammoral and immoral individuals all acting for their own selfish interests against the common good. We have begun to see what the future will be without the principles that carried us for over 200 years and it is not a good future we are heading toward.

As for Thomas Jefferson, he was only one of 204+ founding fathers. He was raised as an Anglican, but later influenced by English deists such as Bolingbroke and Shaftesbury, and became a Unitarian. Jefferson did serve as a vestryman in Fredericksville Parish as a young man. As President, Jefferson attended church services in the House of Representatives. After his retirement to Monticello, Jefferson continued to attend church services, riding into Charlottesville to the court-house on horseback carrying a small folding chair.

He was not non-religious and never advocated state atheism. The documents he signed off on perhaps you should read them. You can start with the Declaration of independence of which he was the principle author. Observe the first sentence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." That's not the thinking of an atheist. Everything he ever wrote is filled with Christian thought and principle. He never agreed to what we are seeing today in our government but instead supported maintaining Christian principles in government. Read his writings. It's all there.

You've found the most wayward person in a group of Christians to try to maintain a position that never existed and never should exist.

I don't see how the Christian principles are being removed. What is the difference between the secular government of the founding fathers and 'state atheism' ?

I don't see how atheism has anything to do with any of that stuff.

I doubt you mean the words militant as I am taking them to mean. Rise of atheists who want to destroy religion? Haven't met one or even heard of the term until today. Militant homosexuality? I assume this means homosexuals who want to wipe out all heterosexuals? And militant feminism? Women who want to wipe out all men? (actually sounds reasonable, jk)

I never said TJ was an atheist, in fact I said that he believed in a creator, he called it a natural god, a deist term.

Also
If you say this is a Christian nation you get something totally different than what the founding fathers intended. I'm guessing you just meant that this country's laws are similar to Christian morality as most of the founding fathers were christian.

[qqMOARpewpew]

TJ was one founding father. One.
And TJ was anything but an enemy to Christianity. In fact by today's standards you would probably label him as a religious fanatic. There is no evidence that Jefferson's abridged bible is actually evidence of skepticism. That my friend is a MYTH. Just as those in the time of Columbus thinking the earth was flat. Jefferson, who gave his money to assist missionary work among the Indians, believed his "abridgement of the New Testament for the use of the Indians" would help civilize and educate America's aboriginal inhabitants. Nor did Jefferson cut all miracles from his work, as Beliles points out. While the original manuscript no longer exists, the Table of Texts that survives includes several accounts of Christ's healings.

In fact by today's standards, TJ would have breached the so called wall of sepreration mentioned in his letter, that the Supreme Court erroniously interpreted. Why, just two days after he sent his letter to the Danbury Baptists did President Jefferson attend public worship services in the U.S. Capitol building, something he did throughout his two terms in office? And why did he authorize the use of the War Office and the Treasury building for church services in Washington, D.C.?

Please find where I said TJ was an enemy of christianity?

[ageofknowledge]

I don't see how the Christian principles are being removed. What is the difference between the secular government of the founding fathers and 'state atheism' ?

I don't see how atheism has anything to do with any of that stuff.

I doubt you mean the words militant as I am taking them to mean. Rise of atheists who want to destroy religion? Haven't met one or even heard of the term until today. Militant homosexuality? I assume this means homosexuals who want to wipe out all heterosexuals? And militant feminism? Women who want to wipe out all men? (actually sounds reasonable, jk)

I never said TJ was an atheist, in fact I said that he believed in a creator, he called it a natural god, a deist term.

Also
If you say this is a Christian nation you get something totally different than what the founding fathers intended. I'm guessing you just meant that this country's laws are similar to Christian morality as most of the founding fathers were christian.

Then you aren't looking or the god of this world (e.g. Satan) has blinded your eyes from seeing it. Removing God from our government, schools, public buildings, traditions, rituals, etc... etc... etc... has been occurring since the late 1960's. What's amazing to me is that you haven't noticed... lol. Not the sharpest tool in the shed are you.

No offense but militant anti-God individuals and organizations have been busily at work to remove every single Christian principle the founding fathers formalized in our government for the benefit of society. Consider how, in another post, I shared how your choice - Thomas Jefferson - attended Christian church IN the House of Congress! Today we are down to trying to keep prayer in Congress. And all since the 1960's.

Now the differences between secularism and state atheism are huge. Secularism doesn't inhibit religious freedom or expression but simply attempts to put them all on fair ground. The founding fathers actually constructed something different than a purely secular government as they implemented a secular government whose very principles were constructed on the reality of God and undergirded with Christian principles, specifically, for the benefit of society. State atheism, on the other hand, is the official "promotion of atheism" by a government followed by active suppression of religious freedom and practice. That is where we are currently headed despite the democide of a 110 million individuals at the hands of governments advocating state atheism in the 20th century. At no point in history, has any government advocating state atheism failed to persecute non-atheists within their area of control. State atheism posits there is no God... that the state is the final and ultimate authority. This is a very very dangerous situation and one the founding fathers would have fought against with exactly the same vigor, if not more, than theocracy.

[Canuckster1127]

Some of the founding fathers did indeed have deistic influences.

Of all of them, probably Franklin comes the closest to what would be termed a deist, although his writings and speeches are frought with contradicting concepts depending upon the context of where he spoke (which is significant as, the general nature of America was Christian and knowledge of the Bible very high so that any public speaker had to be able to draw on Biblical stories and illustrations and understand them in public discourse, including in legal and legislative contexts.) Often times, public speeches are better reflections of the culture and society that the convictions of the person giving them as they are playing to their audience. To know where a person's heart is, to the extent you can do that separated by such lengths of time, personal journals, letters etc. are a better measure than public speeches. Sadly, there are many Christians today who are more concerned about proving historical figures to be of a certain mindset in order to promote their own political agenda today, rather than objectively seeking to understand past personages in the context of their own day and age. (I say that as a Christian today ... I'm embarrassed by what some try to do to merge religion and politics.)

Jefferson, as has been mentioned was raised Anglican, reacted very strongly against that as well as the idea of church taxes and mandatory support of the Anglican Church in Virginia. For a time in his life he might have been described as a deist, but later in his life he would better be described as a Unitarian. He held an extensive correspondence between John and Abigail Adams after both of them left public life (and after a long break between the two of them over political and personal issues.) I've read the entire body of all those letters as well as examined Jefferson's Bible and it would be a huge and inaccurate stretch to assume that Jefferson was an orthodox Christian by any means. He rejected the miraculous, the deity of Christ and the miracles of the Bible. He certainly respected the morality and teachings of Christ and advocated public teaching in many contexts as beneficial to society.

The vast majority of the founding fathers were indeed members of churches. That doesn't mean they were not influenced by the thinking and philosophy of their day outside and within the church. Nor does that mean they had a personal living faith. We obviously can't know that and can only go by the outward evidence. I'd say that overall, however the evidence is pretty strong.

In terms of the original question on this thread, I'd note that I've found the book, "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola and George Barna very interesting and with some valuable insights in the area of Ecclesiology, as it pertain the the US and Protestant Churches. That book itself is pretty much a deconstruction. Frank Viola, followed it later with "Reimagining Church" which seeks to build an ecclesiology from the Scriptures and early church as to what church originally looked like before the influences noted in Pagan Christianity took hold.

blessings,

bart

[cslewislover]

In terms of the original question on this thread, I'd note that I've found the book, "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola and George Barna very interesting and with some valuable insights in the area of Ecclesiology, as it pertain the the US and Protestant Churches. That book itself is pretty much a deconstruction. Frank Viola, followed it later with "Reimagining Church" which seeks to build an ecclesiology from the Scriptures and early church as to what church originally looked like before the influences noted in Pagan Christianity took hold.

blessings,

bart

Hey Bart!! One thing that I would be concerned about with the early church--and following the way they did things--is ritual carried over from the Jewish traditions. What does he say about that?