Morals without god/the bible

[B. W.]

Below are postings that follow Pros comments. Answers would be two long so it is divided into three post. Post One Begins...

You are making more absolute statements. You are saying we can be absolutely sure that we can not be absolutely sure. Stop with the childish games already. Apparently it is OK for you to be absolutely sure, but not us.

It is ok for you to be absolutely sure. I'm not trying to convert you to my point of view or tell you that you are wrong. I'm trying to explain why I think morality is subjective. I'm not saying that you shouldn't believe in OM. I do find it odd that someone who believes that for God nothing is impossible also believes that they can be absolutely certain about things in the future. If God wishes that tomorrow you take two apples and then take another two apples and end up with five apples, why not? Or if God decides someone shouldn't die a physical death at some point in the future, why not?

On a very basic level it is the assumption that things will continue to be as they always have been. To know with absolute certainty that the nature of reality as one perceives it today will continue tomorrow. I suppose I'm not saying that you can't be absolutely sure, I just don't get why one would be absolutely sure. Pretty certain I can understand but absolutely I can't.

By mentioning the billions of case studies you are minimizing statistical uncertainty, not affirming absolutes.

Sadly you do not comprehend what we are saying. Christians know that things will not always continue the way they have been:

Titus 2:11, 12, “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age…” ESV

Rev 21:1, 27, “Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea….27, “But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. “ NKJV

What we as Christians are certain is this: that God never Changes, nor does his standards of right and wrong. Again it is our own relativity that makes us live according justifying perverse, impious, deceitful precepts…

Would you like your spouse only to be relatively faithful to you or true to you?

Yes. Relatively faithful will do me. If I'm a relatively bad husband I wouldn't expect her to be faithful to me. It's as much my job as it her's to ensure that doesn't happen…

…I don't think I have. I said I would like us to be relatively faithful to each other.

How can it be absolutely relative when you clearly stated: It's as much my job as it her's to ensure that doesn't happen…

Again - Let's apply what you said earlier with a little reshaping of a few words from your own quote...

"Yes. Relatively faithful will do me - If I'm relatively faithful I wouldn't expect God to be faithful to me. It's as much my job as it God's to ensure that doesn't happen"

God did send his Son to ensure that you can remain Faithful but if you reject this in exchange for relativism (then your own words): I wouldn't expect God to be faithful to me.

You said, “I really don't see why things are, or should be, absolutely just…”

Soooo, If you do not want the Lord — why would he want you?

Again, why should God let you into heaven?
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[B. W.]

Second post to Pros continues from above:

Is there an absolute inevitability of Death for us all?

It does not matter what you believe about death — is it an absolute inevitable certaincy

There are absolutes…

I don't think I can say much more than what I said to jlay above

Then absolutes exist…

Since absolute, then your relativism is the wrong means to justify your self…as you cannot live up to those standards yourself….

It does not matter if a person does not care or cares about the coins —what is relative to them does not decrease the value worth of ancient coins. They have value. To have value then only proves that value exists. Coins do not matter — value does.

They only have the value that people attach to them. If no one values them, no one would buy them and they would lose their value. I don't see much value in ancient coins, if I found one I would sell it to someone …The inherent value of the pound is meaningless to me, its relative value to other currencies is not.

Again your relativity blind you to the truth: The truth is that Value Exist.

It does not matter about the worth of coins — Value exist and we learn Value through discovery because God Values. Do you value your spouse? Does your spouse value you?

Again, what one values or not value does not disprove that that a standard of absolute value exist. How do you know what Value is, if Value does not already exist?

As with morals I believe values are subjective and relative.

I get the feeling that most here won't put much value on Zen koans but
this one seems relevant.

Mat 6:26, “Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?” ESV

The bible trumps Zen koans…

John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” NKJV

Pros God Values Life...

Zen cann't make up its mind about a dead cat...
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[B. W.]

This is the Third post for Pros as continued from above…

Something Godlike can be absolutely certain?? But do you believe in God? How do you know what is Godlike if Godlike is merely relative to opinion, yet you clearly state, 'something Godlike can be absolutely certain'

It's not so much a matter of believing or not believing in God for me but more a matter of trying to understand what God is - or at least trying to get an understanding of the many different ideas of god(s) that humanity has come up with.

All roads do not lead to the same destination. Trying to take all only will prove how lost you are while you argue — who needs a map, GPS, directory, internet, etc, after all, all roads lead to same end? Just Enjoy the journey — that's what is important…

Okay Pros — Let's test this - everyone readings met at Pros home this Sunday at 8am — no directions can be given in any shade or form because all roads lead to his house. You cannot use any maps, directories, internet, phone/calls, etc, all you can do is just take any road in order to prove all roads lead to the same place. Only those that know where Pros live will find his home. The rest of us, well, we'll be lost and never arriving… not enjoying the expense of being lost… adrift…no matter how long we return to a river and gaze...

Such is Zen — lost in ideas but never arriving…

All roads do not lead to the same destination… There are absolute truths…

If something Godlike can be absolutely certain, then how about God? If that one is really God then He has absolute standards and values. Our own relativity therefore falls short of such glory as we learn through discovery…

Well yes. If a God exists with absolute standards and values then our own relativity will fall short of this. It's a big if for me.

So your uncertaincy will save you? Or will God?

Relativism's absolutism of uncertaincy denies absolutes standards of truth about God, Right, and Wrong. Question: Will such denials justify yourself before God by proving that ignorance is truly the entrance to bliss?

How do we distinguish what is inherently wrong from what what most people agree is wrong? When such crime as stealing, rape, swindling, etc, is done onto you, you discover that such thing called Wrong Exists.

I've not been raped but I've been mugged, robbed, attacked, swindled, lied to, beaten etc. I never discovered that something called WRONG exists.

You Lie…

How do you build swing set? There is a right way and a wrong way to build it. Our own relativity therefore falls short of such standards because it cannot see that there is a right way or a wrong way...

There are many ways to build a swing. We made one when I was young by tying a rope to a treebranch so we could swing over a road and touch the tops of buses with our feet. The kids thought is was great, the adults and the local council though it was wrong. Opinions, nothing more.

What would have happened if you tied the knot in the rope wrong?

Our own relativity therefore falls short of such standards because it cannot see that there is a right way or a wrong way.

Next, you stated: “If God takes sadistic rapists to paradise and dumps people we see as good in hell then what? It's faith and hope, not knowledge that God is good and just.”

What do you base your idea of fairness on if fairness is only relative? How could you say this is wrong for God to do? Again: What do you base your idea of fairness on if fairness is only relative?

I determine fairness relatively, it's based on far from cleancut experiences I've had. I'm not saying that God is inherently wrong if God rewards rapists by sending them to heaven. It seems from your view that what is good is determined by God. If God sends rapists and murderers to heaven and sends 'good' Christians to hell then you're wrong in saying that rape and murder is inherently wrong. If God sends you to hell for not raping and murdering enough you'd have to admit you were wrong as God is the source of right and wrong.

Rev 21:27, “But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.” NKJV

Rev 22:14, 15, “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.” NKJV

You do not know what you think you know…

Just because we can create right and wrong does not disprove that absolutes do not exist. It would mean that we are in the process of discovering them and during discovery we uncover that our own relativity falls short of such standards...

I agree it doesn't prove that absolutes don't exist but I don't think it follows that we are necessarily discovering them.

Why are you here?

Did you not state: "It's not so much a matter of believing or not believing in God for me but more a matter of trying to understand what God is - or at least trying to get an understanding of the many different ideas of god(s) that humanity has come up with.”

Yet, you are absolutely sure of subjective relativity so then would this not mean, in your own words, “I think people who are absolutely sure trust too much in themselves..” would apply to you as well?

I'm not absolutely sure. It's what I think at the moment. Of course I apply it to myself, I don't absolutely trust myself. If you're absolutely sure of certain convictions you have good for you, I'm an advocate of admission of ignorance.

Since you are an advocate of admission of ignorance, then you are trusting that your uncertaincy will save you?

Relativism's absolutism of uncertaincy denies absolutes standards of truth about God, Right, and Wrong. Question: Will such denials justify yourself before God by proving that ignorance is truly the entrance to bliss?

How will you really stand before God?

Pros, Are you certain of eternity without doubt?

Nope, I struggle to even conceive of eternity….

…I disagree. It is a relative certainty, based upon billions and billions of confirmations. I admit it is hugely likely and one of the safest bets you could ever make, even safer than taxes, but it still comes down to a bet. We don't know with absolute certainty what the future will bring, that would require being God. We can be really, really, really sure about something happening in the future as it has always happened in the past, but not absolutely certain.

To me it seems reasonable to presume that my physical body will die and rot or be burned. I'll leave the absolute certainty of the future to those who are omniscient, I'm content in my assumption and hopefully won't be too miffed if it turns out I'm wrong.

With the addition as above that I suppose one can be absolutely certain, I just don't see why.

John 3:14-21, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." ESV

John 3:36, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” ESV

Pros your attempts at ignorance will not earn your way into bliss nor save you...
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[Proinsias]

B.W:

Sadly you do not comprehend what we are saying. Christians know that things will not always continue the way they have been:

You seem to be affirming what I was saying . You cannot be absolutely certain that reality will continue to be as it has always been. You cannot be absolutely certain that death is inevitable, all you can be certain of is that God will not change. Reality as we know it is fair game.

How can it be absolutely relative when you clearly stated: It's as much my job as it her's to ensure that doesn't happen…

Because it is a relationship, the relationship depends upon the two things which are related.

Again, why should God let you into heaven?

I didn't say God should let me into heaven.

Then absolutes exist…

I don't get it. You say death is an inevitable certainty, I say it's not and you conclude that absolutes therefore exist. You've lost me.

It does not matter about the worth of coins — Value exist and we learn Value through discovery because God Values. Do you value your spouse? Does your spouse value you?

Yes I do value my spouse. Others may not. Again it's about you believing we discover value and me thinking we create it.

The bible trumps Zen koans…

I wasn't trying to trump the Bible, I was providing something I thought may have been of value to a discussion on value.

All roads do not lead to the same destination. Trying to take all only will prove how lost you are while you argue — who needs a map, GPS, directory, internet, etc, after all, all roads lead to same end? Just Enjoy the journey — that's what is important…

Take what equipment you wish or leave what you wish in the absolute certainty that all journey's will end up at the same destination - death.

So your uncertaincy will save you? Or will God?

Save me from what? I do agree that only God could save me from not being with God but it's kinda circular.

Relativism's absolutism of uncertaincy denies absolutes standards of truth about God, Right, and Wrong. Question: Will such denials justify yourself before God by proving that ignorance is truly the entrance to bliss?

I have no idea. If you're confident knowledge will save you, go for it.

I've not been raped but I've been mugged, robbed, attacked, swindled, lied to, beaten etc. I never discovered that something called WRONG exists.

You Lie…

I'm not sure even strapping me up to a lie detector would convince you otherwise.

What would have happened if you tied the knot in the rope wrong?

We might have fallen off the swing as it fell apart.

You do not know what you think you know…

I could say the same to you, I imagine it wouldn't make much difference to you either. But I do take it on board. I can't know that I know what I know, who would be knowing.

Why are you here?

Did you not state: "It's not so much a matter of believing or not believing in God for me but more a matter of trying to understand what God is - or at least trying to get an understanding of the many different ideas of god(s) that humanity has come up with.”

To try and get a handle on, and an understanding of, the prevalent image of God of the past 2000 years.

Since you are an advocate of admission of ignorance, then you are trusting that your uncertaincy will save you?

Nope

Will such denials justify yourself before God by proving that ignorance is truly the entrance to bliss?

No idea

How will you really stand before God?

I don't know

Pros your attempts at ignorance will not earn your way into bliss nor save you...

I'll let God decide that instead of taking your word for it if you don't mind too much.

[ageofknowledge]

You tried BW. But when someone won't even admit that there body will one day die, what more can you do? They have chosen to risk everything on a gambler's fallacy.

Consider that in the early 1960s astronomers could identify just a few solar system characteristics that required fine-tuning for human life to be possible. By the end of 2001, astronomers had identified more than 150 finely-tuned characteristics required for human life to be possible and that by 2001 the odds that any given planet in the universe would possess the necessary conditions to support intelligent physical life (based on these necessary finely tuned parameters) had shrunk to less than one in a number so large it might as well be infinity (10 to the power of 173 is considered a statistical impossibility).

The odds that Proinsias will not experience physical death far exceed 10 to the power of 173 given the aggregate of our understanding beyond simply 150 finely-tuned characteristics required for human life to even exist. Proinsias has chosen what statisticians refer to as the gambler's fallacy.

The fallacy in this type of appeal (e.g. I will never physically die) represents a form of the gambler's fallacy. A gambler might conclude that an ordinary coin could land on heads a hundred thousand consecutive times if he rationalizes that 2 to the power of a 100,000 coins exist (though he cannot see them), each being flipped 100,000 times by 2 to the power of 100,000 coin flippers. Statistically, one of these coins could come up heads 100,000 times. Such thinking is considered fallacious, however, because the gambler has no evidence for the existence of the other coins, coin flippers, or distinct results. With a sample size of one, the only rational conclusion to draw is that someone "fixed" that particular coin to land on heads.

Obviously it is statistically impossible for Proinsias to insist that he may never experience physical death. The only rational conclusion to draw is that he certainly will and, for whatever reason, refuses to admit it making him the gambler betting everything on a fallacy.

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Note: There are only two instances in the Bible of individuals being taken into heaven without possibly experiencing a physical death first (e.g. Enoch and Elijah). We really don't know that their mortal earthly bodies didn't die during their ascension. Very likely they did. If; however, they actually didn't many Bible theologians state that they will be reintroduced as the two witnesses ( Revelation 11:3-13 ) who are martyred in Jerusalem during the Tribulation Period for "just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment." -Hebrews 9:27. From a scriptural perspective, Prosinias doesn't qualify for that kind of ascension being an unbeliever under God's condemnation.

[B. W.]

This is Post One of Three - Due to length of Conversation:

Sadly you do not comprehend what we are saying. Christians know that things will not always continue the way they have been...

Rev 20:12, "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books… " NKJV

You seem to be affirming what I was saying . You cannot be absolutely certain that reality will continue to be as it has always been. You cannot be absolutely certain that death is inevitable, all you can be certain of is that God will not change. Reality as we know it is fair game.

…I don't get it. You say death is an inevitable certainty, I say it's not and you conclude that absolutes therefore exist. You've lost me.

Will you, Pros, your physical body inevitably die?

Absolutes exist…

Rev 20:13, 14, 15, "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Rev 21:1, 2, 3, 4 - "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea...3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." NKJV

Sadly Pros, you do not comprehend what we are saying. Christians know that things will not always continue the way they have been…

Again, why should God let you into heaven?

I didn't say God should let me into heaven.

Rev 20:15, "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire…"

Let's not digress -- moving on let's come back concerning spouses being relatively faithful or not below:

How can it be absolutely relative when you clearly stated: It's as much my job as it her's to ensure that doesn't happen…

Because it is a relationship, the relationship depends upon the two things which are related.

Gen 1:26-27, "Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves; and let them rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth." 27 So God created humankind in his own image; in the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. " CJB — Complete Jewish Bible

That relationship is broken by us…

Gen 3:3-4, "but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' " 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. ..." NKJV

It spreads like a disease infecting everything

Rom 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—" NKJV

That relationship was broken. According to your standards, Pros, forsake your wife because she forsook you because that is the relatively justified thing to do.

Do you really love your spouse? If she chose to return to you after being only relatively faithful to you — would you take her back — or would you have found someone else?

God's love is unchanging:

John 3:15-18, "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Our human Love changes but God's love does not…

Absolutes exist…
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[B. W.]

Post Two of Three — continued from above

It does not matter about the worth of coins — Value exist and we learn Value through discovery because God Values. Do you value your spouse? Does your spouse value you?

Yes I do value my spouse. Others may not. Again it's about you believing we discover value and me thinking we create it.

Have you discovered what love means between you and your spouse?

The bible trumps Zen koans…

I wasn't trying to trump the Bible, I was providing something I thought may have been of value to a discussion on value.

You did — God Values Life….

Zen can't tell the difference between a dead beheaded cat no matter how long it takes one to return to the same river from whence a person started from…

All roads do not lead to the same destination. Trying to take all only will prove how lost you are while you argue — who needs a map, GPS, directory, internet, etc, after all, all roads lead to same end? Just Enjoy the journey — that's what is important…

Take what equipment you wish or leave what you wish in the absolute certainty that all journey's will end up at the same destination - death.

Our Mortal Flesh will die but after that comes finding the true fork in the road…

Ecclesiastes 3:17, 18 - “I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts” ESV

Heb 9:27, “Just as human beings have to die once, but after this comes judgment…” CJB

So your uncertaincy will save you? Or will God?

Save me from what? I do agree that only God could save me from not being with God but it's kinda circular.

Saved from what?

Judgment

Heb 9:27, “Just as human beings have to die once, but after this comes judgment…” CJB

Circular??? :The Lord is trying to reach you Pros — aid your discovery… are you listening?

Rom 5:6, “For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

Rev 20: 14-15, “…This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.” NKJV

Relativism's absolutism of uncertaincy denies absolutes standards of truth about God, Right, and Wrong. Question: Will such denials justify yourself before God by proving that ignorance is truly the entrance to bliss?

I have no idea. If you're confident knowledge will save you, go for it.

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NKJV

Would you like this confidence — full assurance we Christians have?

Or will you remain confident that relativism's dead cats will save you from judgment of abandoning God in exchange so you can live out and according to a lie. Always Living life never knowing, never certain, never able to come to the knowledge of the truth....
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[B. W.]

Post Three of Three as continued from above:

I've not been raped but I've been mugged, robbed, attacked, swindled, lied to, beaten etc. I never discovered that something called WRONG exists.

You Lie…

I'm not sure even strapping me up to a lie detector would convince you otherwise.

Are you reciprocating these actions you mentioned to others — mugging, robbing, beating, swindling?

What would have happened if you tied the knot in the rope wrong?

…We might have fallen off the swing as it fell apart.

Then there is an absolute right way to build a swing set isn't there?

You do not know what you think you know…

…I could say the same to you, I imagine it wouldn't make much difference to you either. But I do take it on board. I can't know that I know what I know, who would be knowing.

1 Timothy 1:15-16, “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.” NKJV

Why are you here? Did you not state: "It's not so much a matter of believing or not believing in God for me but more a matter of trying to understand what God is - or at least trying to get an understanding of the many different ideas of god(s) that humanity has come up with.”

…To try and get a handle on, and an understanding of, the prevalent image of God of the past 2000 years.

So since we lain out what we know as Truth — are you still blind to discovery — God's justice to let you discover so that you may return to him.

Isn't that what you are searching for? Why you are here?

Once you find it — you'll have to accept it laying your relativity aside for the absolute truth!

If not — when you come back to the river from whence you started you'll discover the reality that you haven't arrived anywhere at all.

Since you are an advocate of admission of ignorance, then you are trusting that your uncertaincy will save you?

...Nope

Will such denials justify yourself before God by proving that ignorance is truly the entrance to bliss?

...No idea

How will you really stand before God?

...I don't know

Pros your attempts at ignorance will not earn your way into bliss nor save you...

... I'll let God decide that instead of taking your word for it if you don't mind too much.

If God did not leave us His Word on this matter — then how could anyone really know how God decides?

God is absolutly just - He left us His Word...

Heb 9:27, “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment…”

Ecc 3:21-22, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22 …Who can bring him to see what will be after him?” ESV

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NKJV

So when you stand before God — how will he decide?

What will you say?
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[jlay]

All this ridiculous talk of odds. Take something as simple as flipping a quarter. We know in the proper conditions the coin will land on heads or tails 100% of the time. In reality there is nothing of chance or random event in this. Nothing.
In fact if we have every vairable we can ALWAYS guess which side it will land on. Wind, force, velocity, rate of spin, composition of item it lands on, ect. etc. If we had every variable we could always calculate which side it will land on. Trying to predict heads or tails is only a partial look at the total of what is going on. It WILL land on heads or tails. It isn't random at all. And neither is life of death. Guessing at death as if you are guessing at a coin toss is foolishness?

The examples of Enoch and Elijah don't change a thing. As long as we continue to live in this space and time we will most certainly die. Absolutely. Conditions, such as Enoch, Elijah and a potential rapture do not change the outcome. Just like we can say, under these conditions the quarter will always land on heads or tails. Someone can make a ridiculous assertion like if you were in zero gravity, and the quarten never lands. Or if you are flipping over mud, and it lands stuck on its edge. It doesn't change the absolute outcome under known conditions. Because if we consider those variables, we can still predict exactly where and how the coin will land. It isn't random at all.

We know our conditions here in this space and time. Death was not any less a statistical certainty when the 1st human died. There were no previous cases to study. That did not make death any less certain. Death was not a 1/1,000 or a 50% chance. Just because everyone who has lived has died does not make death a very, very, very, very, likely possibility. Everyone dies because it IS an absolute certainty under these conditions. The bible says EVERY man has an appointment with death. Anyone who tries to distort the reality of death is not being intellectually honest. Other religions foolishly try to teach that this isn't the case. This alone should be reason enough to reject them right off the bat. Another example how God has placed a big arrow into our existence that points back to Him, and to the Christian faith.

[Proinsias]

Age:

I don't believe the gamblers fallacy is relevant to this point. There is a large difference between a statistical impossibility and an absolute impossibility. Especially if one believes in a God for whom nothing is impossible, or simply for me who believes we cannot predict future events with absolute certainty no matter how generally we frame the prediction. A statistical impossibility does not equate to an absolute impossibility. With every death I'm not becoming more convinced that someone won't die - I just don't see it as an absolute certainty. In a similar, though less extreme fashion, I assume that the sun will rise tomorrow. though I'm not absolutely certain of it.

Consider that in the early 1960s astronomers could identify just a few solar system characteristics that required fine-tuning for human life to be possible. By the end of 2001, astronomers had identified more than 150 finely-tuned characteristics required for human life to be possible and that by 2001 the odds that any given planet in the universe would possess the necessary conditions to support intelligent physical life (based on these necessary finely tuned parameters) had shrunk to less than one in a number so large it might as well be infinity (10 to the power of 173 is considered a statistical impossibility).

The issue with this for me is that it assumes fine tuning. If you assume fine tuning then as the sciences progress the evidence becomes more and more overwhelming. If you don't, it doesn't. From my point of view science is simply coming up with ever more complex and intricate ways to try to explain and predict phenomena more accurately. The value I place on science does not depend on it being discovered as opposed to created, the value is in the use.

As I've said earlier I'm content with my assumption that I'll die, if it turns out I'm wrong I'll live with it. No need for absolute certainty. If I was to bet I'd bet on me dying but as with any other bet I'll refrain from being absolutely certain, even if a statistician considers the odds close enough to infinite as to not be worth bothering about.

[Proinsias]

B.W:

You have taken words that I have used when discussing the relationship between myself and my wife and altered them to the format of the relationship I may have with God. For me, although again in some ways a useful analogy, I do believe it breaks down for the purposes we are discussing. The relationship between two humans is rather different to the relationship a human may have with an absolute divine being, for me it is stretching the very meaning of the word 'relationship'. I have said that the relationship between myself and my wife is dependent upon the both of us. From what I gather the relationship between a human and your God is one that depends solely upon the human, as only the human side of the relationship is capable of relative change.

That relationship was broken. According to your standards, Pros, forsake your wife because she forsook you because that is the relatively justified thing to do.

I didn't say it was the relatively just thing to do. I asked why things should be absolutely just. I can see why if one assumes an absolutely just God then one is required to frame things as absolutely just, but in the possibility of absence of such a God one is not required to frame things as absolutely just.

Do you really love your spouse? If she chose to return to you after being only relatively faithful to you — would you take her back — or would you have found someone else?

I do really love my wife. I wouldn't say I absolutely love my wife as I also love my daughter and a great many other people. Relatively speaking my wife and daughter get the lions share of my love, although to what degree I put myself first is debatable.

Our human Love changes but God's love does not…

Absolutes exist…

It seems the sway of the conversation has switched from proving God via absolutes to proving absolutes via God. I tend to agree that one is rather difficult to imagine without the other, my difficulty is that I can see things as they are without either.

Have you discovered what love means between you and your spouse?

No. It's very easy for me to say I love my wife, our marriage will hopefully be the journey which adds more and more meaning to that phrase. Love means different things to different people and I hope that we can continue to create our own definition and expression of that through marriage and through my daughter, and of course all the animals.

Our Mortal Flesh will die but after that comes finding the true fork in the road…

You appear to have come full circle. From denying that all roads lead to same destination to then saying that after that destination has been reached by all there is one further fork.

Would you like this confidence — full assurance we Christians have?

I don't think so, as I said earlier complete confidence in one's opinion is not something I tend to admire. As I said earlier, with agreement from jlay, people can be wrong. Confidence and complete assurance doesn't go hand in hand with the idea that people can be wrong for me.

Or will you remain confident that relativism's dead cats will save you from judgment of abandoning God in exchange so you can live out and according to a lie. Always Living life never knowing, never certain, never able to come to the knowledge of the truth....

Currently I believe there is much value in Zen, although that be somewhat of an oxymoron, and in Christianity. I love great minds and the insight they can give. At this stage it doesn't bother me too much if that great mind has been working within the framework of Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, science, philosophy, the arts etc....

Are you reciprocating these actions you mentioned to others — mugging, robbing, beating, swindling?

No, well trying my best not to anyway. Working for the bank I've been accused of the robbing and swindling part and not being averse to very occasionally smacking my daughter I've been accused of the beating part. Again it's about relative definitions. I don't really see what this shows. If I wese a habitual violent criminal, or pursued an eye for an eye mentality, would this then strengthen my case and weaken yours? I don't think it would.

Then there is an absolute right way to build a swing set isn't there?

No. There are lots of ways and lots of opinions. If a lifelong swingbuilder declares a swing built by a child which breaks within five minutes wrong it does not mean it is is inherently wrong. It means a lifelong swingbuilder thinks it was wrong.

Once you find it — you'll have to accept it laying your relativity aside for the absolute truth!

Agreed, with the possible addition of 'if I find it' and 'if there's anything to be found'

So when you stand before God — how will he decide?

What will you say?

I don't know. I kinda figured if I ever did have to stand before God that preparing a speech might be rather pointless.

................

I add that should you wish, I am quite happy to continue this discussion for as long as you wish to be part of it. I came here to to find out about Christianity and get to know Christians. I have met many wonderful, knowledgeable, Christians here, yourself included. Having spent a large portion of my time on the net in the company of atheists and people with religious views rather far from the mainstream I had built up a caricature of Christianity that was in great need of being binned. I have no desire to impose my point of view, only add to it and alter it. As I've hopefully explained I don't think I have all the answers. I don't think that I am right and that you are wrong. I think I'm looking at things differently to you and I'm interested in your view.

I'm not averse to switching to your point of view but to do so at the moment I would be kidding myself on and my faith would be far from real.

Thank you for the time you have spent on this with me.

[Proinsias]

jlay:

All this ridiculous talk of odds. Take something as simple as flipping a quarter. We know in the proper conditions the coin will land on heads or tails 100% of the time. In reality there is nothing of chance or random event in this. Nothing.
In fact if we have every vairable we can ALWAYS guess which side it will land on. Wind, force, velocity, rate of spin, composition of item it lands on, ect. etc. If we had every variable we could always calculate which side it will land on. Trying to predict heads or tails is only a partial look at the total of what is going on. It WILL land on heads or tails. It isn't random at all. And neither is life of death. Guessing at death as if you are guessing at a coin toss is foolishness?

and

It doesn't change the absolute outcome under known conditions.

From what I understand this is a strict deterministic view of the universe. All one needs to know to determine the outcome of an event occurring in the universe is the totality of the universe at that moment and the rules governing it. It also assumes that the rules governing the universe, if there are any, are not infinitely, or absolutely, complex. This, to me, is beyond humanity at least for the moment. This view, whilst internally consistent although not provable, can become problematic if one also factors in a belief in free will.

On a basic level it also assumes that God cannot alter the predicted outcome of the coin toss being heads or tails - alongside the ridiculous, but nevertheless possible, scenarios you mentioned.

[ageofknowledge]

Age:

I don't believe the gamblers fallacy is relevant to this point. There is a large difference between a statistical impossibility and an absolute impossibility. Especially if one believes in a God for whom nothing is impossible, or simply for me who believes we cannot predict future events with absolute certainty no matter how generally we frame the prediction. A statistical impossibility does not equate to an absolute impossibility. With every death I'm not becoming more convinced that someone won't die - I just don't see it as an absolute certainty. In a similar, though less extreme fashion, I assume that the sun will rise tomorrow. though I'm not absolutely certain of it.

The issue with this for me is that it assumes fine tuning. If you assume fine tuning then as the sciences progress the evidence becomes more and more overwhelming. If you don't, it doesn't. From my point of view science is simply coming up with ever more complex and intricate ways to try to explain and predict phenomena more accurately. The value I place on science does not depend on it being discovered as opposed to created, the value is in the use.

As I've said earlier I'm content with my assumption that I'll die, if it turns out I'm wrong I'll live with it. No need for absolute certainty. If I was to bet I'd bet on me dying but as with any other bet I'll refrain from being absolutely certain, even if a statistician considers the odds close enough to infinite as to not be worth bothering about.

The gambler's fallacy applies perfectly to your untenable position that you may not die. You certainly are going to die. You are in denial of many things. We've established you think you may not die, that the gambler's fallacy doesn't apply to that position though it obviously and certainly does, that you think the trend in fine tuning is somehow subjective and not objective, that reality isn't material to you if you decide not to value it, etc...

[jlay]

can become problematic if one also factors in a belief in free will.

I almost mentioned this in the post, but chose not to. Free will is the caveat. It is also a beacon that points to God's special creation and that which is made in his image.

On a basic level it also assumes that God cannot alter the predicted outcome of the coin toss being heads or tails - alongside the ridiculous, but nevertheless possible, scenarios you mentioned.

Not at all. God has often given men the outcome prior to the flip. That is the distintion between Christianity and any other religion. Like I said, if we had every variable. God has the foreknowledge. He has every variable. And He has said, "It is appointed once for a man to die, then the judgment."

This, to me, is beyond humanity at least for the moment.

I like how you phrased that. Beyond humanity. God doesn't intervene in this world on a whim. God foreknew every fork in the road, and every potential within free will. That is why there is no coin flip with God. You can't out think God. That is why you can have free will, and still not thwart His plans. God is not altering the course of man. He is fulfilling His plan. He has simply woven our free will into the script of life.

This is all very important in the big picture. Why? If this is not true then life truly is meaningless. The only meaning is what you have in your mind. But this is the result of meaningless events. And thus your life, your love for your wife, etc. are all just delusions of your concsiousness, which is another meaningless by product of nature. But you can hardly describe your life as meaningless. In fact the people you bicker with here, are the one's saying that your life has REAL value. REAL meaning. And your presense here evidences that very desire planted within you. If life has any true meaning, then God is a certainty. And the bible, as has been demonstrated prophetically and historically to all, experientally with some, is the compass to point you to Him. Your continued presence here is evidence of the longing of your soul.

[B. W.]

Again this Part One of Three responses for prior conversation broken into 3 parts due to length of conversation response below:

12-15-2009

B.W:….You have taken words that I have used when discussing the relationship between myself and my wife and altered them to the format of the relationship I may have with God. For me, although again in some ways a useful analogy, I do believe it breaks down for the purposes we are discussing. ---- The relationship between two humans is rather different to the relationship a human may have with an absolute divine being, for me it is stretching the very meaning of the word 'relationship'. I have said that the relationship between myself and my wife is dependent upon the both of us….

What have you discovered so far on your journey? Since you value your family are you not discovering that life has value as well? Since you value your family, then Value exists, therefore, an objective moral is discovered which is that 'Value' exists. During the journey, as you put it, one is in process of uncovering what makes wrong Value and what makes Right value.

Again, you appear to be missing the point — we discover through relationships that life indeed has an absolute value because God values Life and relationship between us and him. We broke that relationship and ended up far from God and have turned our societies, the world, even families into a mess of broken relationships as well. God has every right to abandon us but He values what he has made and seeks to bring back people into a relationship with him. So he sent Christ into the world to restore the breach between God and humanity and reconcile us back to him -- Please read - 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19, 20 —

…From what I gather the relationship between a human and your God is one that depends solely upon the human, as only the human side of the relationship is capable of relative change.

Not quite — God did not have to save an ungrateful, god denying, selfish humanity bent upon choosing wrong values over right. God as John recorded Jesus' words in John 3:15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 that He so loved that He sent Christ to show us what really makes Right Value - really Right so we could become reconciled back into relationship from whence we were originally designed to live.

God knowing and basing his standard of what makes value right is demonstrated by his own unchanging Value by permitting humanity to discover that it is their personal relative morals that need to be shed so we can return to his unchanging Value system.

God made the first move toward reconciliation way back in Genesis chapter 3. Because God chose to do so does not make him act in accord to the dictates of relativism as you seem to be suggesting. He acts because he has Value. If he did not — then he would have done nothing.

... I asked why things should be absolutely just. I can see why if one assumes an absolutely just God then one is required to frame things as absolutely just, but in the possibility of absence of such a God one is not required to frame things as absolutely just.

Does life have value? Is there a right way and a wrong way? If you tied the knot for the rope for a tree swing set wrong, people will become injured. There is such thing as right and wrong which proves God is Just.

God is absolutely just and in his standard of justice proven when he gave humanity the ability to think and reason independently. Deny this would prove God is not just. That is why things need to be absolutely just. To be absolutely just also involves endowing whom he created with reasoning intelligence the ability to make wrong choices as well as right choices (Isaiah 1:18).

Because God is just, proven by granting humanity the ability to discover, explore, and come to one's own conclusions that life without Him remains always searching — never finding, learning but never learn, always seeking but never finding, that we'll freely return to him and his just standards.

That is why absolute justice is important — without it, you could not agree or disagree that we need to surrender our relativism (which by the way is what makes life absolutely ugly) over to his absolute soul winning justice so we are sealed by him to never stray again.

For absolute justice to be truly absolute will allow discovery as well as provide the means to return to the relationship that humanity broke with God in exchange for that form of relativism that seeks to entrap God to act contrary to his own nature and character so that humanity can become the relative masters of the world.

Do you really love your spouse? If she chose to return to you after being only relatively faithful to you — would you take her back — or would you have found someone else?

I do really love my wife. I wouldn't say I absolutely love my wife as I also love my daughter and a great many other people. Relatively speaking my wife and daughter get the lions share of my love, although to what degree I put myself first is debatable.

Again - what are you learning about what makes justice just in your own relationships with your family? Do you let them come into their own? Do you love your spouse conditionally or unconditionally? What are you learning during your journey of discovery what makes right justice and what make wrong justice?

It seems the sway of the conversation has switched from proving God via absolutes to proving absolutes via God. I tend to agree that one is rather difficult to imagine without the other, my difficulty is that I can see things as they are without either.

That is how the principles of absolute justice work — you can see them in what you ought to do as well as what you ought not to do.

Question — do you always do what you ought to do — or do you find yourself falling short like the rest of us do? Where does this 'knowing ought' come from? Why is that so inherent in all humanity? ( I know I ought to do this but I did this instead).
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