Basic question: when did the disciples become born again?

[DannyM]

"This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him. " John 2:11

"Whoever believes in Me has everlasting life." John 6:47

The Bible says the disciples believed in Christ in John 2 before the death, resurrection, etc. Jesus says everyone who believes has everlasting life. Thus, the disciples had everlasting life in John 2. If your gospel contradicts Jesus, you should reconsider your gospel, lest you fall under the condemnation of God as stated in Gal 1:8-9.

I believed in Christ for 31 years before I was truly a believer. How do you work that out?

[Jac3510]

We can debate what you mean by the word "believe" and if it is what John had in mind. We cannot debate what John meant by the word believe as to whether or not it is what he had in mind. Clearly, the sole condition for salvation is faith--whoever believes has everlasting life. Whatever the word "believe" means, John says the disciples did it in John 2, long before they came to understand the resurrection or anything else TM is talking about.

So, the answer is still the same. (2). To say anything different is to call Jesus a liar, is to preach a false gospel, and to prove that one does not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If such a person has never believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then they are as lost as anyone could be, and will be one of the ones who say "Lord, Lord!" as in Matt. 7, just before they are condemned to the lake of fire for all eternity.

The stakes are high. Believe Jesus or call Him a liar. There is no middle ground.

"For God so loved the word that He gave His One and Only Son, so that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but has everlasting life." Believe that and be saved. Reject it and be condemned (John 3:18).

[TallMan]

"This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him. " John 2:11
"Whoever believes in Me has everlasting life." John 6:47
The Bible says the disciples believed in Christ in John 2 before the death, resurrection, etc. Jesus says everyone who believes has everlasting life. Thus, the disciples had everlasting life in John 2. If your gospel contradicts Jesus, you should reconsider your gospel, lest you fall under the condemnation of God as stated in Gal 1:8-9.

Jesus also said that signs follow believers (Mark 16:15-20, Luke 10:9, 19), that believers will receive His Spirit (John 7:37-39) and do greater works (John 14:12).

True believers will do what God tells/allows them to do when they can.

Today, Jesus isn't physically appearing to people telling them to physically follow him, neither is God telling people to get on an Ark or build a temple.

Today, under the New Covenant dispensation, Jesus is telling believers to get baptised and receive His Spirit (this will result in speaking in tongues), then get involved with a church like the one he set up. He is returning soon for such faithful people!

If Noah, Abraham, David, Zacchaeus etc were alicve today, they would do this!

This is what Paul preached, anyone who says different should reconsider.

[TallMan]

I believed in Christ for 31 years before I was truly a believer. How do you work that out?

Like many, you probably only ever heard part of the message to be a "believer" in.

It says of Cornelius (Acts 10:36-37)
"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the
baptism which John preached"

(Similarly the disciples of John in Acts 19:1-3)

Like many "church-goers" today, they had heard the claim that Jesus was the Christ, the saviour, and believed it .. . but they had not understood about the need to receive the Holy Spirit.

Sadly today, the whole message has been mangled as people try to fit the new wine into old bottles (the "church" ideas of man that have grown up over the centuries).

God's message is to just get back to the original . . put yourself there at Pentecost (Acts 2), like the disciples who "believed" as best they could understand, but who needed to receive the Spirit.

31 years, 31 weeks, 31 minutes, don't look back, look forward, Jesus knows your heart and is calling you now!

Here's one of many testimonies I could share:
I was on chat and spoke to Josh, 15 from America.
He had seen TV-evangelists speak in tongues in front of the camera which is wrong and he saw no purpose to it, but he was intreagued.
I told Him it's God leading a person in prayer (God knows best), he asked how he goes about this, I told him to close his eyes (to stop distractions) and *expect* God to *do* what Acts describes. He said:-
"ok I'll give it a go, can you wait 5 minutes ?"
I said "Ok"

15 seconds later he typed "wow!"
and described the strange words coming from him.... he was amazed how easy it was...
well of course he did as Jesus says:- "enter as a little child" !

He asked me to stay talking & answering questions, so I did. I mentioned:-
John:7:37: In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and
cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
:38: He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his
belly shall flow rivers of living water.

He said hed read that before, but NOW he appreciated it!

24 hours later I chat with him again:-
I mentioned baptism, he accepted his "baptism" at 11 was to please his parents,
he then asked if he needed to find a "tongues church", I asked if he would be willing for us to come and baptise him, he said ok.

He's already been busy - prayed for a friend with a problem that went 10
mins later, and started talking to his dad, they had not spoken in 2 years
because dad is a "conservative" and Josh was rebelling against society, he was punk with green hair. . .
now he is beginning to see he has a better message to give society.

[Jac3510]

Jesus also said that signs follow believers Mark 16:15-20,

Mark 16:9ff isn't original.

Luke 10:9,

Jesus was addressing the 70 in Luike 10, not you.

that believers will receive His Spirit John 7:37-39

And all do.

and do greater works John 14:12

Ah, so when was the last time you raised someone from the dead, or cured the blind, or opened the ears of the deaf? When was the last time you did something greater than these? After all, if you are a TRUE believer, you will have.

So, please, tell me about the time you raised someone from the dead so we can all know you are truly saved.

True believers will do what God tells/allows them to do when they can.

True believers don't call Jesus a liar like you do. You are, at best, a confused believer; more likely, a confused unbeliever; at worst, a false prophet.

Today, Jesus isn't physically appearing to people telling them to physically follow him, neither is God telling people to get on an Ark or build a temple.

Today, under the New Covenant dispensation, Jesus is telling believers to get baptised and receive His Spirit (this will result in speaking in tongues)

No it won't.

, then get involved with a church like the one he set up. He is returning soon for such faithful people!

He is returning for those who believed Him. Those who call Him a liar, He returns to Judge (Rev. 20:14ff).

If Noah, Abraham, David, Zacchaeus etc were alicve today, they would do this!

All of those men are alive today, and they will be your judge, for while you called God a liar, they believed His promises.

This is what Paul preached, anyone who says different should reconsider.

So Paul contradicted Jesus?

Jesus said EVERYONE who believes has eternal life, yet you say NOT everyone who believes has eternal life. And yet John 12:42 says many believed who did none of the things you spoke of. Acts 8:13 says Simon the Sorcerer believed, and he did none of the things you speak of. Jesus says these people are saved. You say they don't. You make Jesus a liar. Finally, Paul himself refutes you, for he says that NOT all speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:30). Likewise, he says that we are saved by faith alone (Acts 16:31).

You can spew whatever you like. I'm about as bored with your dribble as I am every other Satanic cult that has ever walked the face of the earth. Your kind will go and come, and the true Church will be here long after you are gone, just as it has been here long before you were. Where you spend eternity is up to you. Repent of your false gospel and place your faith in Christ alone. Believe His words in John 3:16. If not, be condemned for all eternity, which is another "promise" of His (John 3:18).

[DannyM]

We can debate what you mean by the word "believe" and if it is what John had in mind. We cannot debate what John meant by the word believe as to whether or not it is what he had in mind. Clearly, the sole condition for salvation is faith--whoever believes has everlasting life. Whatever the word "believe" means, John says the disciples did it in John 2, long before they came to understand the resurrection or anything else TM is talking about.

So, the answer is still the same. (2). To say anything different is to call Jesus a liar, is to preach a false gospel, and to prove that one does not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If such a person has never believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then they are as lost as anyone could be, and will be one of the ones who say "Lord, Lord!" as in Matt. 7, just before they are condemned to the lake of fire for all eternity.

The stakes are high. Believe Jesus or call Him a liar. There is no middle ground.

"For God so loved the word that He gave His One and Only Son, so that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but has everlasting life." Believe that and be saved. Reject it and be condemned (John 3:18).

Oh yeah, believe Jesus or call him a liar. I've heard that straw man many times. Tut Tut.

[DannyM]

Why you are all quoting verses is beyond me. The scripture is clear. The disciples did not truly believe and understand until Jesus' reasppearance. It's there for you to see; there's no need to skirt around the issue.

[TallMan]

(deleted)

[TallMan]

Mark 16:9ff isn't original.

Mark knew Jesus victory over death and sin, the idea that he ended the cospel in fear and confusion is foolishness.
If you want to be informed better regarding the MSS etc, read this.

I'll look at your other assertions later.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Mark 16:9ff isn't original.

Mark knew Jesus victory over death and sin, the idea that he ended the cospel in fear and confusion is foolishness.
If you want to be informed better regarding the MSS etc, read this.

I looked into the link you provided and under the heading Bible Studies I saw British Israel...yikes! I'm sorry...British Isrealism and «Bible Study» are two things that don't go together. If you give British Isrealism any credibility, you are seriously misguided.

FL

[Jac3510]

Oh yeah, believe Jesus or call him a liar. I've heard that straw man many times. Tut Tut.

I'm sure God would appreciate you calling His own statement a strawman:

"Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son." 1 John 5:10

You either believe what Jesus said or you don't. If you don't, you call Him a liar. Plain and simple.

Why you are all quoting verses is beyond me. The scripture is clear. The disciples did not truly believe and understand until Jesus' reasppearance. It's there for you to see; there's no need to skirt around the issue.

Yes, Scripture is clear. John 2:11 says that they put their faith in Jesus. Are you going to say that John was wrong? Can you show me a single verse that says they didn't TRULY believe until Jesus' reappearance?

What you will find is that they believed in His resurrection after His reappearance, which they did not believe before. Some have used that as an argument to say that we don't have to believe in the resurrection to be saved, an argument which I've tried to refute in an article that will be published next year (you can read it here). But, again, we are in agreement on this point: Scripture is very clear.

The disciples believed in Jesus in the very beginning of His ministry--so says the Bible. You can accept that your reject it. Your choice.

[DannyM]

I'm sure God would appreciate you calling His own statement a strawman. .

This won't wash with this me, Jac. Using these emotional tactics is misleading and not very attractive.

You either believe what Jesus said or you don't. If you don't, you call Him a liar. Plain and simple. .

I do believe what Jesus said; you're getting confused about what I'm saying. You are not truly “born again” until you truly accept Christ's glory. For the scared and bewildered disciples, this clearly came upon Jesus' return after resurrection. This has nothing to do with calling Jesus a liar and everything to do with understanding the transformation of the disciples. And you know when this came don't you?

Yes, Scripture is clear. John 2:11 says that they put their faith in Jesus. Are you going to say that John was wrong? Can you show me a single verse that says they didn't TRULY believe until Jesus' reappearance? .

They wanted to believe — they did believe, just like I believed for 31 years. I don't doubt the scriptures at all. Was I truly “born again,” as the OP asks? No, I wasn't, and neither were the disciples. To be “born again” one has to have faith in the death, resurrection and coming of Christ Jesus.

What you will find is that they believed in His resurrection after His reappearance, which they did not believe before. Some have used that as an argument to say that we don't have to believe in the resurrection to be saved, an argument which I've tried to refute in an article that will be published next year (you can read it here). But, again, we are in agreement on this point: Scripture is very clear.

The disciples believed in Jesus in the very beginning of His ministry--so says the Bible. You can accept that your reject it. Your choice.

You've backed me up here, Jac. They did not truly believe Jesus would return until they saw it with their own eyes. Belief in this wonderful and central tenet to Christianity is what is required to be “born again.”

[Jac3510]

This won't wash with this me, Jac. Using these emotional tactics is misleading and not very attractive.

I do believe what Jesus said; you're getting confused about what I'm saying. You are not truly “born again” until you truly accept Christ's glory. For the scared and bewildered disciples, this clearly came upon Jesus' return after resurrection. This has nothing to do with calling Jesus a liar and everything to do with understanding the transformation of the disciples. And you know when this came don't you?

I'm not trying to be emotional or attractive. I am basing my statements on the cold facts of Scripture. Scripture says if you don't believe it, you make Jesus a liar.

Second, I agree with you that TODAY a person must accept Jesus' resurrection and divinity to be saved. If you read the paper I wrote, you'll see a very clear explanation as to when and why the transition happened.

They wanted to believe — they did believe, just like I believed for 31 years. I don't doubt the scriptures at all. Was I truly “born again,” as the OP asks? No, I wasn't, and neither were the disciples. To be “born again” one has to have faith in the death, resurrection and coming of Christ Jesus.

Allow me to quote the verse in question:

"This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him."

I don't see the word "want" in there, do you? It says they believed. This is what I mean about believing Scripture or not. You are your theology into the text. I am simply repeating what the Bible says back to you.

So, I'll ask you AGAIN: do you agree that they believed in John 2:11 as John bluntly states that they did, or do you disagree with John? If so, on what basis?

You've backed me up here, Jac. They did not truly believe Jesus would return until they saw it with their own eyes. Belief in this wonderful and central tenet to Christianity is what is required to be “born again.”

Read the paper. I agree with you. I am also telling you that the disciples were born again. In short, the Gospel of John teaches that what a person had to believe to be saved changed at the Resurrection. Pre-resurrection, the Gospel was to believe that Jesus was the Messiah--the Guarantor of Eternal Life. Post-resurrection, the Gospel is to believe that AND to believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, being the Son of God. It's clearly explained in the paper.

In the meantime, your view still has the disciples not believing when John says they believed. And not only John, but there are LOTS of places in the Gospel of John where people are clearly said to have believed before His resurrection. You have to deny that they believed in every case. That means you aren't being honest with Scripture, Danny.

[TallMan]

. .. Jesus was addressing the 70 in Luike 10, not you.

He was addressing believers in him.
Most of the gospels are not addressed to me, or you, so you treat them as just a historical record, not Jesus teaching you anything?

Ah, so when was the last time you raised someone from the dead, or cured the blind, or opened the ears of the deaf? When was the last time you did something greater than these? After all, if you are a TRUE believer, you will have.

Jesus could only do them when the need arose and people were believing . . people I'm ion fellowship with have experienced these things personally, I havn't personally hadthose particular miracles follow me yet though in the greater sense I have as I have cause various people to be raised from spiritual death, deafness and blindness through telling them the truth about receiving the Spirit.

Jesus said EVERYONE who believes has eternal life, yet you say NOT everyone who believes has eternal life.

And yet the devils believed who Jesu was, were they saved?
No, many, like you it seems, profess belief, but when it comes down to the specifics, and Jesus is specific, you won't have it.

Your "Jesus" that you believe in is not the one preached by the apostles and backed up by God with his signs following.

Paul himself refutes you, for he says that NOT all speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:30).

He is talking in the context of meetings, and has been since chapter 11.
If, as you believe, only some Christians can speak in tongues, Paul wouldn't need to reason with them not to all do so when they meet, the problem could never arise!

Likewise, he says that we are saved by faith alone (Acts 16:31).

He, and the people he was writing to and writing about were in "the faith" once delivered unto the saints (Jude 3, Acts 2:4, 33, 39):
Jude contrasts these people wit those who "separate themselves", i.e. presume they are God's but are . . .
" sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost" (Jude 19-20)

Praying in the Holy Ghost is praying in tongues (1 Cor. 14:2, 4, 14-21; Romans 8:26)

[DannyM]

I'm not trying to be emotional or attractive. I am basing my statements on the cold facts of Scripture. Scripture says if you don't believe it, you make Jesus a liar. .

But I trhink you're mistaking believing with being “born again,” which is what we are talking about here.

Second, I agree with you that TODAY a person must accept Jesus' resurrection and divinity to be saved. If you read the paper I wrote, you'll see a very clear explanation as to when and why the transition happened. .

I'll read it, Jac.

Allow me to quote the verse in question:

"This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him."

I don't see the word "want" in there, do you? It says they believed. This is what I mean about believing Scripture or not. You are your theology into the text. I am simply repeating what the Bible says back to you. .

No. But it is clear to anyone reading the scriptures, especially Mark's gospel, that the disciples were desperate to believe while never truly grasping who Jesus really is. The disciples know that Jesus is special, but they don't fully grasp just how special.

So, I'll ask you AGAIN: do you agree that they believed in John 2:11 as John bluntly states that they did, or do you disagree with John? If so, on what basis?

Of course I agree with John that they put their faith in Jesus; they also put their faith in Jesus by joining him in his ministry. You'll also note, Jac, that John 2:22 tells us that the disciples believed what Jesus had spoken and in the scripture, with regards Jesus' body being a temple, raised in three days, only after the resurrection. Now what I'm saying is there is faith and there is faith. There is faith without understanding, even after witnessing. And there is faith and belief through full understanding. The latter is only achieved at the resurrection.

Read the paper. I agree with you. I am also telling you that the disciples were born again. In short, the Gospel of John teaches that what a person had to believe to be saved changed at the Resurrection. Pre-resurrection, the Gospel was to believe that Jesus was the Messiah--the Guarantor of Eternal Life. Post-resurrection, the Gospel is to believe that AND to believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, being the Son of God. It's clearly explained in the paper. .

Okay. Now you are suggesting something that is knew to me. Is this your own suggestion, Jac? I will read your paper; you know that I like and respect your reasoning for the most part. I will need to give it full attention so will do asap

In the meantime, your view still has the disciples not believing when John says they believed. And not only John, but there are LOTS of places in the Gospel of John where people are clearly said to have believed before His resurrection. You have to deny that they believed in every case. That means you aren't being honest with Scripture, Danny.

Let me try to put it this way. I know they believed. I fully understand that they believed in something very remarkable about Jesus. But I'm saying that they did not fully appreciate and understand what it is they believed until Jesus' coming at resurrection. Do you see what I'm getting at Jac?