Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?

[jlay]

AS confusing as this sounds, one can understand and accept the explanation and still have a problem. Just because one accepts the truth, doesn't make it easy to swallow.

[Gman]

Besides if you really want to boil this all down, we should also rationalize this same concept to the nations that harbor nuclear weapons. After all, this weapon would not only destroy women and children but a whole lot more. And we have used it before in the past... On civilians too. We are just as guilty. Was it justified? We still carry the weapon and the policy is still there to use it only under certain circumstances. And this is the year 2009? We still have the capability and could still use it today.. Again, we are just as guilty...

But no one especially God commands us to do it, this is a serious question and this verse had a bad effect on my faith and I really need help overcoming this stumbling block. By the way countless Christians are also perplexed by Numbers 31

Alan

Yes, but our Government still has the power to use nuclear weapons today. It's still not ruled out to use it (as a last resort). So, technically they are at fault as well (in WWII). But were they?

[Gman]

You are the first Christian that has given my a reasonable answer and way to rationalise Numbers 31 with my Christian faith. I will go to the links suggested and report back

God Bless You

Alan

Many people have a problem accepting the nephilim theory. I'll even admit it's pretty strange... But when you research it more, I believe it holds much much truth. And it isn't just the Bible that confirms this..

Blessings..

[Alan McDougall]

5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation.?

Am I blaspheming or sacrilegious?? I hope not help me if you can.

6) AlanMcDougall13/7/2007

So do you go to every Christian board you find and post this, from over two years ago? It makes it seem like you're trying dissuade people about God. I'm just wondering . . . we certainly like new people with new questions. I like what Age posted. I have Hard Sayings of the Bible, and this verse isn't even discussed.

However, the Encycolepedia of Bible Difficulties does mention it. I'll quote the conclusion: "Was this action morally justified? Those who wish to argue that it was cruel and uncalled for will have to argue with God, for He commanded it. But it seems quite apparent in the light of all the circumstances and the background of this crisis that the integrity of the entire nation was at stake. Had the threat to Israel's existence as a covenant nation been dealt with any less severely, it is extremely doubtful that Israel would have been able to conquer Canaan at all, or claim the Land of Promise as a sacred trust from God. The massacre was as regrettable as a radical surgery performed on the ailing body of a cancer victim. If this life is to be preserved, the diseased portion must be completely cut away. (Further discussion concerning this whole problem of extermination will be found in connection with Joshua 6:21 . . .). (Gleason L. Archer Jr., pp 142-143).

God is God, and He doesn't change. We live in the church age now, with the Holy Spirit to help us. God is not currently protecting Israel in the same way as He was before (since they were still developing then), and His Word is being demonstrated in a different way as well.

I have indeed gone to another Christian forum , only one two years or so ago and received little help. This is a real problem to me and many other Christians some in this very forum.

About the flood I accept Gods Judgement in this case because the whole world had become corrupt, like it is today, so if God does not do anything about the unspeakable depravity amongst present day humanity he will have to go back to the flood victims and apologise to them.

You people must realise that God has allowed me to put forward this vexing question to you, so that you can help me and I can help you in understanding the mind of God (My children perish for lack of knowledge

God bless you

Alan

[Echoside]

Besides if you really want to boil this all down, we should also rationalize this same concept to the nations that harbor nuclear weapons. After all, this weapon would not only destroy women and children but a whole lot more. And we have used it before in the past... On civilians too. We are just as guilty. Was it justified? We still carry the weapon and the policy is still there to use it only under certain circumstances. And this is the year 2009? We still have the capability and could still use it today.. Again, we are just as guilty...

But no one especially God commands us to do it, this is a serious question and this verse had a bad effect on my faith and I really need help overcoming this stumbling block. By the way countless Christians are also perplexed by Numbers 31

Alan

Yes, but our Government still has the power to use nuclear weapons today. It's still not ruled out to use it (as a last resort). So, technically they are at fault as well (in WWII). But were they?

God gives a chance to repent, the use of the bomb in World War 2 was too premature. It was brought about by a diffusion of responsibility between members in positions of power in the US govt. that did nothing to stop it. A last resort? Not in the case of WW2 it wasnt.

[Gman]

God gives a chance to repent, the use of the bomb in World War 2 was too premature. It was brought about by a diffusion of responsibility between members in positions of power in the US govt. that did nothing to stop it. A last resort? Not in the case of WW2 it wasnt.

We don't really know that. The war could have gone lasted much longer if it wasn't used. The point here is that nuclear weapons could still be used today. There is no real policy against them in combat.

[Silvertusk]

Reading the appalling account of genocide of the Midianite people by Moses and his army makes me doubt God told him to carry out this awful crime against humanity. After all the Midianites were also God creation and children.

The murder of woman and children makes me doubt the scriptures please help me in this

The only way i can justify it - is the way William Craig stated it.

We have to remember - that on a human level we find this appalling - because it is our nature. The killing of children or anyone is. However we can't perceive the eternal view that God has and we find it difficult to do so.

The Adults were given time to repent and did not so. They were evil and dealt with child sacrifice - so killing them all although still fairly horrible can at least sort of be justified. The children however is the big issue here. For this you have to consider which would be the better life for them -

1) That they grew up in an unrepentable culture and became evil themselves therefore damning their souls in the face of God and therefore spending eternity in hell - or oblivion - whichever one you beleive.

2) That they were killed and so due to the age of accountablilty were saved and therefore allowed into heaven for an eternity of joy with the Lord.

I must admit - from an earthly perspective number 2 is hard to grasp - but it is the only way I can see it happening if I were to carry on believeing in a Just and loving God. IF this was not the case - then there is no justification for it and therefore God is evil or does not exist - either way I would probably lose my faith completely.

Hope that helps

Silvertusk.

[DannyM]

We have to remember - that on a human level we find this appalling - because it is our nature. The killing of children or anyone is. However we can't perceive the eternal view that God has and we find it difficult to do so.

That is a very good point.

The Adults were given time to repent and did not so. They were evil and dealt with child sacrifice - so killing them all although still fairly horrible can at least sort of be justified. The children however is the big issue here. For this you have to consider which would be the better life for them -

1) That they grew up in an unrepentable culture and became evil themselves therefore damning their souls in the face of God and therefore spending eternity in hell - or oblivion - whichever one you beleive.

2) That they were killed and so due to the age of accountablilty were saved and therefore allowed into heaven for an eternity of joy with the Lord.

Are you saying God knew that, were he to spare them, they would have grown into evil and so he substituted this eventuality — in the form of sacrificing them — and instead gave them eternity?

I must admit - from an earthly perspective number 2 is hard to grasp - but it is the only way I can see it happening if I were to carry on believeing in a Just and loving God. IF this was not the case - then there is no justification for it and therefore God is evil or does not exist - either way I would probably lose my faith
completely.

It's a toughie. Jac and I had a similar discussion on the “Moses' shame?” thread and I found some comfort in Jac's answers…

Dan

[Silvertusk]

Are you saying God knew that, were he to spare them, they would have grown into evil and so he substituted this eventuality — in the form of sacrificing them — and instead gave them eternity?

Dan

That is exactly what I am saying. It is the only way I can still hold onto the concept that God is Good. It is a tricky one though.

God Bless

Silvertsuk

[DannyM]

That is exactly what I am saying. It is the only way I can still hold onto the concept that God is Good. It is a tricky one though.

God Bless

Silvertsuk

Well rest assured that it is a very good theological deduction; the best I've heard yet, in fact.

Though I'm a little worried that this appears to be “the only way” you can hold to God being good. God *is* good; we have enough evidence — both in the scriptures and in our hearts — to attest to this. I'm concerned that your faith in God's goodness hangs on an interpretation of one thing…

Be blessed in your assurance that God is goodness itself; without God's existence we'd have no idea what 'goodness' *is* or *means*; we would not even be taliking about the concept of 'goodness'.

God bless.

Danny

[teixidoj]

I too am shocked when I read the old testament about the genocide and wars etc. A sharp difference from the teachings of Jesus. I also have a hard time believing that a loving God would punish the nation of Israel because David did not take a census as God instructed (Somewhere in 2 Samuel). I used to question my faith and things like this used to drive me nuts, but I decided to follow Jesus and feel that I am a better person than I used to be. Scriptures like Numbers 31 and 2 Samuel and numerous other old testament scriptures that depict a cruel God do not bother me like it used to. I do my best to follow the teachings of Christ in the new testament and the early church (Paul, Peter and others) and pray to God for understanding of the things that do not make sense to a finite being like myself.

May the Lord bless and keep you forever,

John...

[Gman]

I do my best to follow the teachings of Christ in the new testament and the early church (Paul, Peter and others) and pray to God for understanding of the things that do not make sense to a finite being like myself.

May the Lord bless and keep you forever,

John...

Greetings.. This link might help too.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... iisbiAkgl7

[teixidoj]

Thank you brother; I promise to read the article as soon as time permits.

God is love,

John...

[rare96ws6]

The link Gman postesd is interesting and correlates to an earlier post on this list in stating that it was actually mercy God showed by allowing the children to be killed. They would have ended up just like their parents, but are now in Heaven instead, since they had not yet reached the age of accountability.
This brings up another question I have never seen answered to any degree of satisfaction, and that is if children go to Heaven, and there are several verses that allude to this, then why don't Christians kill their children so that they ensure they go to Heaven? Living to adulthood, there is the danger that a person may reject God and go to hell.

[August]

The link Gman postesd is interesting and correlates to an earlier post on this list in stating that it was actually mercy God showed by allowing the children to be killed. They would have ended up just like their parents, but are now in Heaven instead, since they had not yet reached the age of accountability.
This brings up another question I have never seen answered to any degree of satisfaction, and that is if children go to Heaven, and there are several verses that allude to this, then why don't Christians kill their children so that they ensure they go to Heaven? Living to adulthood, there is the danger that a person may reject God and go to hell.

Because Christians are not killers, and they understand that God alone has power over life and death.