Pope John Paul II dies

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:59 pm

Look around you, do you see things like nature and living beings roaming this planet. Yes. Like Augusts signature, The fool says in his heart there is no God, directly from the Bible.

Nature and living beings don't lead my thinking to a God at all. And, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you meant by the "Augusts signature"

Yes, but EXACTLY after the Pope dies?

Well, yes... My uncle died and inmediately it started to rain. He was not a religious man. My aunt died and the weather didn't change. And she was a religious woman. My grandmother died and it stopped raining. She didn't care a lot for religion but went to church from time to time. Should I draw any conclusion from these facts?

I believe it was a sign. Explain how he saw Jesus prior to dying. The story says that Jesus was communicating with him.

As I told you, testimonies are not sufficient to establish any miracle. Why should we believe the pope?

Also to point out, the recent earthquake that hit Indonesia, while it did inflict much damage and death, why was there no tsunami to follow it? Scientists are still puzzled because they said there should have been one. Can YOU tell me WHY a tsunami didn't happen?

I don't see anything strange in it. Neither knew that scientists were confused about the weather in Indonesia, but if they are, what's the problem? They will be doing more research, more experiment, learning from mistakes, etc. Science is not knowledge in itself, it's just a path towards knowledge. What we don't know doesn't prove the existence of a God or his intervention. If you ask a scientist about this particular phenomenon, he probably will answer: "we don't know it yet, but we are working on it!" That's better than to believe that we know all because we read it in a book two millennia old, I dare to think...

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:01 pm

atheist wrote:Moreover, I don't need or want an afterlife;

I just can't understand this, and I'd like to. If I knew there NOT to be an afterlife, there would be nothing at all in life with any meaning at all. What would I do every day? Why would I be doing it? EVERYTHING suddenly becomes meaningless; how can you stand living life like that?

I also find ironic that someone will say "I don't want an afterlife" but then at the same time say that "I refuse to believe in a God who would allow eternal suffering." What would be much worse than a God who makes us eternal beings and offers us a free gift to live that eternity in His complete glory, would be a universe that can offer me nothing more than a few billion heart-beats in my entire existance.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:01 pm

atheist wrote: What evidence?
Anyway, no excuses needed, i just did what I considered right. If He exists and He is just like Christians imagine, He should be the one with the proper excuses. And they better be reeeeal good!...

Man oh man your pride knows no bounds. I'd love to see a puny human "demand" of an omnipotent being to give him "excuses".

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:13 pm

atheist wrote:
Moreover, I don't need or want an afterlife;

I just can't understand this, and I'd like to. If I knew there NOT to be an afterlife, there would be nothing at all in life with any meaning at all. What would I do every day? Why would I be doing it? EVERYTHING suddenly becomes meaningless; how can you stand living life like that?

Good question, Felgar. Hope you don't mind if I answer it with Robert Ingersoll quotation, I probably wouldn't find better words:
"Is life worth living? Well, I can only answer for myself. I like to be alive, to breathe the air, to look at the landscape, the clouds, the stars, to repeat old poems, to look at pictures and statues, to hear music, the voices of the ones I love. I enjoy eating and smoking. I like good cold water. I like to talk with my wife, my girls, my grandchildren. I like to sleep and to dream. Yes, you can say that life, to me, is worth living."

I also find ironic that someone will say "I don't want an afterlife" but then at the same time say that "I refuse to believe in a God who would allow eternal suffering." What would be much worse than a God who makes us eternal beings and offers us a free gift to live that eternity in His complete glory, would be a universe that can offer me nothing more than a few billion heart-beats in my entire existance.

Well, I'd probably say to him "give me my few billion heartbeats and keep your eternity of glory. I'd rather take life with all its flaws than an eternity in company of a God that inflicts eternal suffering for temporary sins". But that's only my point of view.

Believer · Post by **Believer** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:15 pm

Hey atheist, you know what, we as Christians hold strong beliefs, you on the other hand, don't. What you say about the Pope is absurd:

Why should we believe the pope?

BECAUSE THE POPE WAS AN EXTREMELY STRONG, DEVOTED, RELGIOUS LEADER! Why would the man lie?

If you are wanting to become a Christian, then do so and stop the arguments. Your arguments are so illogical. You do not understand.

August is another CHRISTIAN forum member, quoting a scripture from the Bible in his signature - "The fool says in his heart, there is no God" - Psalm 14:1.

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:18 pm

Man oh man your pride knows no bounds. I'd love to see a puny human "demand" of an omnipotent being to give him "excuses".

Oh, no... I didn't mean pride, sorry, that was not the intention. What I meant is that if I am His creature He already should know me and therefore I don't have to present any excuses. On his side, though, as He never showed himself or gave me any clear hint of his existence and his demands, He'll have the opportunity of fully answer my questions. He wouldn't condemn a culprit without reading the charges first, I guess

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:28 pm

atheist wrote:He wouldn't condemn a culprit without reading the charges first, I guess

I agree - I don't think He will either. But the charges will be that you denied Him, even while knowing deeply in the fabric of your being that He exists. Even after He instructed you in the way of truth through people like Brian and I.

But I don't want to get side-tracked with what seem like threats... I just want you to understand what I believe are the possibilities. What I'm much more interested in is understanding your philosophies on life.

atheist wrote:"Is life worth living? Well, I can only answer for myself. I like to be alive, to breathe the air, to look at the landscape, the clouds, the stars, to repeat old poems, to look at pictures and statues, to hear music, the voices of the ones I love. I enjoy eating and smoking. I like good cold water. I like to talk with my wife, my girls, my grandchildren. I like to sleep and to dream. Yes, you can say that life, to me, is worth living."

But it's all so fleeting. Can eating, drinking, and being merry really be enough? Is it even possible without something more to hope for? I just don't understand how it could be enough... What I would like to know is for you, on a personal level, what allows you to be happy with 'just' that?

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:35 pm

atheist wrote:
Man oh man your pride knows no bounds. I'd love to see a puny human "demand" of an omnipotent being to give him "excuses".
Oh, no... I didn't mean pride, sorry, that was not the intention. What I meant is that if I am His creature He already should know me and therefore I don't have to present any excuses. On his side, though, as He never showed himself or gave me any clear hint of his existence and his demands, He'll have the opportunity of fully answer my questions. He wouldn't condemn a culprit without reading the charges first, I guess

The defense in your case will find it extremely difficult to prove your case when the prosecutor, judge and executioner are not only the same being, but an ominiscient one as well.

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:06 pm

Hey atheist, you know what, we as Christians hold strong beliefs, you on the other hand, don't.

Sure. Strong doesn't mean right

What you say about the Pope is absurd:

Quote:
Why should we believe the pope?

BECAUSE THE POPE WAS AN EXTREMELY STRONG, DEVOTED, RELGIOUS LEADER! Why would the man lie?

I can actually think of many reasons. But you know, when I drop the information about his death I didn't intend to discuss his merits

If you are wanting to become a Christian, then do so

Take away this cup from me!

and stop the arguments. Your arguments are so illogical. You do not understand.

You may not like them, that doesn't mean that my arguments are illogical. Anyway, it is very possible that I don't understand, of course.

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:07 pm

The defense in your case will find it extremely difficult to prove your case when the prosecutor, judge and executioner are not only the same being, but an ominiscient one as well.

Yeah! Tough case... Maybe I rely too much on justice...

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:14 pm

atheist wrote:
The defense in your case will find it extremely difficult to prove your case when the prosecutor, judge and executioner are not only the same being, but an ominiscient one as well.
Yeah! Tough case... Maybe I rely too much on justice...

Or you're wrong about what justice really is.

I know you must feel attacked from all sides, but if you get a chance to respond to my last post I'd really appreciate it.

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:19 pm

atheist wrote:
"Is life worth living? Well, I can only answer for myself. I like to be alive, to breathe the air, to look at the landscape, the clouds, the stars, to repeat old poems, to look at pictures and statues, to hear music, the voices of the ones I love. I enjoy eating and smoking. I like good cold water. I like to talk with my wife, my girls, my grandchildren. I like to sleep and to dream. Yes, you can say that life, to me, is worth living."

But it's all so fleeting. Can eating, drinking, and being merry really be enough? Is it even possible without something more to hope for? I just don't understand how it could be enough... What I would like to know is for you, on a personal level, what allows you to be happy with 'just' that?

I don't know. I guess I could find many spots in the Bible that relates to a simple life and the blessing of the poors of heart. But there can be something else, if you don't mind another quote. From Carl Sagan this one:

"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy."

Anyway, you can consider life fleeting, even ridiculously short, and long for an eternal afterlife. But that longing doesn't make that afterlife true, it's just no more than wishful thinking, isn't it?

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:25 pm

I agree - I don't think He will either. But the charges will be that you denied Him, even while knowing deeply in the fabric of your being that He exists. Even after He instructed you in the way of truth through people like Brian and I.

I don't know what you mean by "the fabric of my being" (though it might make a nice metaphor) but I seriously doubt about that "knowledge".

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:56 pm

Moreover, I don't need or want an afterlife

Hi atheist,

This statement intrigues me ... are you so content with your life and what you have seen and done on this earth that you don't even need an inkling of a hope for an afterlife? Why wouldn't you want it? I'm not saying there is or isn't an afterlife ... but I find it interesting that it doesn't matter to you. I find myself desperately hoping that there is ... I don't want to be forever gone ... yet I'm not sure why. I think it must be freeing not to care, but I'd like to hear from you why, since you were once a "Christian" and I assume held Christian beliefs in an afterlife and resurrection, etc.

You know, when I was a Christian, this idea of punishment or reward was pushed on me. It never quite fitted in me, because... who are we to expect an afterlife? Just a bunch of creatures evolved from less sophisticated creatures and isolated in a tiny world lost among billions of stars. Why should we deserve such a privilege? Why would we need or want another life? Just to erase our fears? To extend our miseries? One chance is enough, I think. Anyway, "another life", would be really "life"? Or just an estatic form of a dream. I think of life as a process. It starts, it develops, it ends. Eternal life doesn't sound like life at all to me, I feel I don't need it, and surely I don't want it.

seedling · Post by **seedling** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:40 pm

"You know, when I was a Christian, this idea of punishment or reward was pushed on me."

It was never "pushed" on me, but I knew it was there, hanging in the background.

"who are we to expect an afterlife? Just a bunch of creatures evolved from less sophisticated creatures and isolated in a tiny world lost among billions of stars. Why should we deserve such a privilege?"

I agree ... at one point I realized ... I have no right to ask for anything above what I am given right here and now. These are the cards that have been dealt me ... I have to play them to the best of my ability. End of story.

On one hand, I envy you. I hope you are happy ... you do sound a little bitter. Or maybe I'm reading you wrong. I do think people get all caught up in the "life" after this one, though, and ignore what they should be paying attention to in the here and now.