Jesus Manifesto

[Canuckster1127]

I thought this might be of interest to some.

http://ajesusmanifesto.wordpress.com/

Frank Viola is the same author I've been discussing who advocates organic church. Leonard Sweet is identified by some as associated with the emergent church. I think they're spot on, however with this manifesto they developed which isn't at all about church structure or many of the other issues that we often speak about and can tend to get wrapped around the axle when discussing.

blessings,

bart

[Jac3510]

Thanks for the link. Quick question--yes or no would be sufficient if that's all you want to offer (if anything at all):

Do those in the organic church movement tend to look favorably upon the emergent church movement?

I suspect that a simple yes or no may not be nuanced enough, as I'm sure there are parts you agree and disagree with, but I'm just looking for a general feel.

Thanks

[Zebulon]

Well I am a bit perplexed about this Manifesto. Thanks for the link Canuckster. While I enjoyed reading it, it ended up with this:

The two of us may disagree about many things—be they ecclesiology, eschatology, soteriology, not to mention economics, globalism and politics.
But in our two most recent books—From Eternity to Here and So Beautiful—we have sounded forth a united trumpet. These books are the Manifests to this Manifesto. They each present the vision that has captured our hearts and that we wish to impart to the Body of Christ— “This ONE THING I know” (Jn.9:25) that is the ONE THING that unites us all:

One thing is sure here about what they both agree: Purchase their Books...

Zebulon

[Canuckster1127]

Thanks for the link. Quick question--yes or no would be sufficient if that's all you want to offer (if anything at all):

Do those in the organic church movement tend to look favorably upon the emergent church movement?

I suspect that a simple yes or no may not be nuanced enough, as I'm sure there are parts you agree and disagree with, but I'm just looking for a general feel.

Thanks

Jac,

As you suspect, that's a hard question to answer. There's no formal tie in organic church that I've observed that ties it with the emergent movement. But then, organic church doesn't fall neatly into any of the neat categories that we tend to like to label. The organic church movement tends to align and be lumped in with house church movement and simple church movement, although there's not necessarily a strong tie there.

Names I see come up the most in the discussions and literature I read in this area tend to include, Gene Edwards, T. Austin Sparks, Frank Viola, George Barna, Tony and Felicity Dale and Watchman Nee. That doesn't mean there's complete alignment between all of these and some of the others that could be mentioned, but if that helps, those are the names that come to mind in terms of my exposure.

As I hope I've been clear before, the organic movement, as I see it and as I'm motivated to be a part of it is not simply about coming up with a different model. If that's all it were, I'd be less than enthusiastic about it. Where I am coming from in the midst of it is very much about a deep sense of spiritual dissatisfaction with the status quo that is accepted in most institutional forms of church; the passivity, the spectator mentality, the division between clergy and laity, etc. etc.

Maybe this will help to sum some of it up. While I'm human and I certainly after 20 years of different forms of ministry have wounds and scars from my association with institutional churches and I'd not be completely honest if I said that there wasn't a sense of satisifaction in leaving organized religion on the basis of those as well as just the abject disappointment of observing and living in professional religious circles, the truth for me at a very deep level is that I've left not out of a sense of rejecting my faith, but rather positively convinced that this is the best path to preserve my faith and seek to walk with like minded people who sincerely want to put Christ first and move away from all of the garbage that has accumulated in many institutional forms of church.

I sincerely want to walk first and foremost with Jesus Christ and return to the basics of that personal walk free from anything that would hinder that walk, and sadly in a way, one of the greatest hinderances I've observed and experienced over most of my life is the structure and practices of most churches that talk a strong game but in reality are more tied to dry ritual, meaningless repetition, internal politics, non-scriptural practices and who corporately are tied more to preserving their buildings, income, staff salaries, and who measure their success by their ability to maintain and expand in these realms while ignoring much that Christ taught and modeled.

I certainly am not perfect nor do I expect perfection and peaches and cream in the organic form, but more than the form I long for the emphasis upon a personal walk and relationship with Christ, where individually and corporately we're not tied to these other elements nor forced to seek to maintain them at the expense of the more important matters of focusing upon Jesus Christ as our head and building together as a body of Christ who have deeper relationships and body life than spending an hour a week looking at the back of the neck of the same person, while others perform on a stage.

So that's probably not a complete answer to your question. I certainly have no ties with the emergent church (so I could not definitively give a strong opinion anyway.)

Organic church is more a quality that a definitive model. Viola certainly has strong opinions and has ventured to provide some pretty strong models. He's qualified them however as based in part in his participation and observation on a practical level. I think he would claim that he believes them to be scripturally compatable, but I've seen him go to pretty great lengths to stress that he doesn't see every element as scripturally prescribed nor modelled exclusively on the first century church just for the sake of emulation without recognizing the cultural and societal dynamics of that day.

Hope that helps.

blessings,

bart

[Canuckster1127]

Well I am a bit perplexed about this Manifesto. Thanks for the link Canuckster. While I enjoyed reading it, it ended up with this:

The two of us may disagree about many things—be they ecclesiology, eschatology, soteriology, not to mention economics, globalism and politics.
But in our two most recent books—From Eternity to Here and So Beautiful—we have sounded forth a united trumpet. These books are the Manifests to this Manifesto. They each present the vision that has captured our hearts and that we wish to impart to the Body of Christ— “This ONE THING I know” (Jn.9:25) that is the ONE THING that unites us all:

One thing is sure here about what they both agree: Purchase their Books...

Zebulon

They do both have books to promote. I've read the one by Viola. It's an excellent book and I recommend it. It speaks more of the underlying heart beliefs of what many moving in the direction of organic church are seeking in terms of a personal walk with Christ. The scope of its impact however goes much broader than that and I think it's a timely message today for christians of all bents and stripes.

[Zebulon]

They do both have books to promote. I've read the one by Viola. It's an excellent book and I recommend it. It speaks more of the underlying heart beliefs of what many moving in the direction of organic church are seeking in terms of a personal walk with Christ. The scope of its impact however goes much broader than that and I think it's a timely message today for christians of all bents and stripes.

Hummmm. Interresting Bart. Interresting because The direction of organic church in terms of a personal walk with Christ reminds me of the book The Universe as a Nutshell from Stephen Hawking (astro-physisist) and Michael Talbot's The Universe as a Hologram. When I read these books I could'nt stop thinking about the teachings of Christ. Meaning their tendency towards a similar direction.

Zebulon