Needing help trying to refute atheist dmt arguement...

[derrick09]

Hello everyone, I"m needing some help refuting a arguement that involves this chemical found in the center of our brain called dmt. Many people call it the spirit molecule.It is been said that it is released during rem sleep (dreaming) and released in large quantities at the moment of death. The atheists I am discussing this with say that this shows that religious experiences from back in biblical times and more current times are due to that physical chemical release. Also, this could explain alot (if not all) near death experiences. I was wondering if any of you all know about this and have any good responses to it. Thank you for your time and God bless.

[B. W.]

Hello everyone, I"m needing some help refuting a arguement that involves this chemical found in the center of our brain called dmt. Many people call it the spirit molecule.It is been said that it is released during rem sleep (dreaming) and released in large quantities at the moment of death. The atheists I am discussing this with say that this shows that religious experiences from back in biblical times and more current times are due to that physical chemical release. Also, this could explain alot (if not all) near death experiences. I was wondering if any of you all know about this and have any good responses to it. Thank you for your time and God bless.

Dimethyltryptamine or known as N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is also an illegel drug as well like LSD.

that is about as much as know about about DMT.

Concerning NDE's the secular link posted below may help. The goes to the NDE Atheist AJ Aryers had...

...Atheist AJ Aryers had an After Death Experience which he describes approaching a red light that seemed to radiate the governance of the universe.

http://near-death.com/experiences/atheists01.html

As for DMT - I'll look into this a bit more; however, there are reported cases in which people have been clinically dead for periods ranging from 20 minutes to hours and come back. One happened over this very Christmas time with a woman giving brith and both her and her child pronounced dead and came back - made national news. She had no brian waves and was dead for a period of time. Husband prayed and she and the baby came back seeCNN link

Point is this - if the extreme trace amounts of DMT that occur naturally in human brain cause NDE then when brain function stops so should the NDE's - they do not. Also NDE survivors recall events as they occur viewed above thier bodies, in other rooms in great detail. If you like you can check out my website which is still under construction that let you know who I am as well as what I know about NDE's.

God Bless!
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[cslewislover]

I hadn't heard that story. I haven't looked a ton, but that CNN link didn't have anything about prayer or God in it, so I looked a little more. Here's another article, but it doesn't say the dad prayed (I'm not saying he didn't, I'm sure he did!), and his answer here is kind of odd. But still . . . http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?secti ... le-7193429

I don't know about that drug and the molecules of it in our brain, either, but I would simply say that God could be using the molecules Himself. He can use anything He wants, the one who created everything, and He may have even created that chemical for that very purpose. There are reasons to believe God and Jesus are true, namely the fulfilled prophecies from the OT by the events in the NT. The way you look at these issues is in how you believe (and view life), and there is enough evidence to believe that God is real and his interactions with us are real. Otherwise, there are just so many things that are weirdly specialized like that, that would seem to have no chance or reason for evolving.

[B. W.]

I hadn't heard that story. I haven't looked a ton, but that CNN link didn't have anything about prayer or God in it, so I looked a little more. Here's another article, but it doesn't say the dad prayed (I'm not saying he didn't, I'm sure he did!), and his answer here is kind of odd. But still . . . http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?secti ... le-7193429

I don't know about that drug and the molecules of it in our brain, either, but I would simply say that God could be using the molecules Himself. He can use anything He wants, the one who created everything, and He may have even created that chemical for that very purpose. There are reasons to believe God and Jesus are true, namely the fulfilled prophecies from the OT by the events in the NT. The way you look at these issues is in how you believe (and view life), and there is enough evidence to believe that God is real and his interactions with us are real. Otherwise, there are just so many things that are weirdly specialized like that, that would seem to have no chance or reason for evolving.

FYI

He stated he prayed on our local news report - channel 9 news - Denver...
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[cslewislover]

Thanks! It's funny what he said, that he would take intervention wherever he could get it, after being asked about God. This is what I saw in that article, and another as well. I wonder why he said that? Or if they placed it out of context.

[B. W.]

Thanks! It's funny what he said, that he would take intervention wherever he could get it, after being asked about God. This is what I saw in that article, and another as well. I wonder why he said that? Or if they placed it out of context.

Hard to say but knowing the secular media it would not surprise me if they took it out of context!
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[cslewislover]

I was trying to find if any apologetics sites I knew of talked of this, but no luck so far. However, here's a site that discusses brain chemistry and faith: http://www.doxa.ws/meta_crock/God_pod.html

[August]

Hello everyone, I"m needing some help refuting a arguement that involves this chemical found in the center of our brain called dmt. Many people call it the spirit molecule.It is been said that it is released during rem sleep (dreaming) and released in large quantities at the moment of death. The atheists I am discussing this with say that this shows that religious experiences from back in biblical times and more current times are due to that physical chemical release. Also, this could explain alot (if not all) near death experiences. I was wondering if any of you all know about this and have any good responses to it. Thank you for your time and God bless.

Do they have their chemicals mixed up? Do they not mean NDMA?

No chemical release can account for experience in the clinically dead....it is wishful thinking unless they can read someone who is dead's mind, and show that a chemical actually brought on specific thoughts or experiences in an EEG flatlined patient.

[buddhawarrior]

derrick09 wrote:Hello everyone, I"m needing some help refuting a arguement that involves this chemical found in the center of our brain called dmt. Many people call it the spirit molecule.It is been said that it is released during rem sleep (dreaming) and released in large quantities at the moment of death. The atheists I am discussing this with say that this shows that religious experiences from back in biblical times and more current times are due to that physical chemical release. Also, this could explain alot (if not all) near death experiences. I was wondering if any of you all know about this and have any good responses to it. Thank you for your time and God bless.

Sorry to be so incredibly late to this discussion. the answer I'm sure has already been given. But here's my two cents.

I just stumbled onto this site with a google search, so don't know the background of this group, be it christian or atheist, or Buddhist or whatever. I use to be christian, but now am a believer in no religion, and all religion, the true concept of one God of ALL creation.

I have personally experienced DMT on several occasions. and all have been life transforming. It is the closest experience to dying and coming back. I have also had a near-death experience, drowned in a river once. so I do have some points of comparison.

As far as science saying that DMT is from the pineal gland, and that it is released both in death and dream state, that is just a scientific hypothesis, it has not been proven, nor does the researcher Rick Strassman stand behind that comment. It was taken from his book and bastardized.

Another factor for arguing it is that as humans, we have no way of knowing what the actual cause of our biochemical action is. An example is picking up an apple. Yes, biochemical transmitters and neurons fired to tell the muscles to function, but there was a will behind it. And Yes, even if it is true that the Pineal releases DMT which causes religious experiences, something triggered that release. It is unknown what.

If we know anything about this world from the school of science, it is that we don't know much about anything. In modern cosmology, they just discovered "Dark matter, and Dark Energy." And this Dark stuff makes up 99% of the known universe. And why do they call it dark? because it looks just like black outter space. So what they are really saying is that, what we once thought of as empty space, actually is something, and that something has a tremendous force on the universe and that we currently do not have any model, or instrument, or methodology to understand 99% of the universe.

Science does not disprove God, Science does not prove God. I do not need science or God to know that the sun feels good. It just does.

[buddhawarrior]

Hello everyone, I"m needing some help refuting a arguement that involves this chemical found in the center of our brain called dmt. Many people call it the spirit molecule.It is been said that it is released during rem sleep (dreaming) and released in large quantities at the moment of death. The atheists I am discussing this with say that this shows that religious experiences from back in biblical times and more current times are due to that physical chemical release. Also, this could explain alot (if not all) near death experiences. I was wondering if any of you all know about this and have any good responses to it. Thank you for your time and God bless.

Do they have their chemicals mixed up? Do they not mean NDMA?

No chemical release can account for experience in the clinically dead....it is wishful thinking unless they can read someone who is dead's mind, and show that a chemical actually brought on specific thoughts or experiences in an EEG flatlined patient.

I think they are quoting Dr Rick Strassman in the DMT: the Spirit Molecule book. But he only said it as a hypothsis, and it's not proven or tested, tho there are strong evidence that suggests that the pineal gland in the center of the brain releases a large dose of DMT during death and also some quantity of it during REM sleep. Although I'd have to actually see the reports and results of these measurements. I don't think they KNOW is from the pineal.

[B. W.]

Sorry to be so incredibly late to this discussion. the answer I'm sure has already been given. But here's my two cents.

I just stumbled onto this site with a google search, so don't know the background of this group, be it christian or atheist, or Buddhist or whatever. I use to be christian, but now am a believer in no religion, and all religion, the true concept of one God of ALL creation.

I have personally experienced DMT on several occasions. and all have been life transforming. It is the closest experience to dying and coming back. I have also had a near-death experience, drowned in a river once. so I do have some points of comparison...

Hi buddhawarrior,

You stated you had a NDE. Can I ask at what age did yours occur and how long were you out?

Mine happened 1980

Have a nice day
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[Stu]

Mine happened 1980

Have a nice day
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Hi, could you relate your story? Perhaps another thread? Always interested to hear of peoples experiences. If it's something you'd rather not do, not worries

[B. W.]

Mine happened 1980

Have a nice day
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Hi, could you relate your story? Perhaps another thread? Always interested to hear of peoples experiences. If it's something you'd rather not do, not worries

Yes I will but first would like to hear from buddhawarrior first and then I can post on another thread.

Blessings!

[buddhawarrior]

Hi BW, nice Initials.

Yes, My experience happened maybe 10 years ago when I was 24. I was swimming in a river in Utah and the current was very strong. I choked on some water midway cross the stream and could not recover the strength to get to the other side. My muscles cramped and seized up and I could no longer keep my head above water. my pride kept me from calling for help at first, but when I really needed it was I had floated too far down stream. at a certain point I realized my fate and made a mental decision that I would give up and give in. I was not afraid of dying. And when I closed my eyes and let myself sink, I could see the bright brown water cover over me and felt the current carry me. I felt my body dissolve, almost molecule by molecule, and as that happened, corresponding memories would flash before my eyes. I realized that I was dying, and I could see a clear bright light/dark. It was neither light nor dark, it was both, and it pulsated. It was an energy field of peace. None of the words I am using right now to describe the experience comes close. The object i'll just say, though clearly not an object, was beyond anything that my human senses could understand. It was beyond time, space, dimensionality, it was everything. It contained everything, was the origin of everything, and created everything. Though it had no will, feeling, nor personality. It was just there, a radiant peace, and I was going towards it. I can not stress how competely useless it is to try and describe this thing. I had no way of knowing anything about it because it was beyond language, or any sensory input. I heard it without ears, I saw it without eyes, I felt it without a body, I was surrounded by it, but I was IT, and IT was me, I knew it without mind or brain, But it was not a thing, it wasn't anything, it was beyond thingness. There were no qualities at all, yet it had every quality and more.

But while floating towards it, imagery of all types flashed by, like if I was on a roller coaster and there were things in the air and i'm zooming by them. they were faces, memories, ideas, history, science, theology, women, monsters, aliens, I could not keep track. all of them were distracting and made it hard to focus on the light, But I knew i must somehow.

I should also say, that at this point, I was no longer in contact with my body. I had completely dissolved and the last connection I felt was thru my very core, somewhere deep in my chest, although it also felt like the middle of my head. I should say that the concept of body towards the end of my dissolving seized to make any sense. I had no body, and the last few strands that held me to this world just was gone. So how I was able to have any sensory input or conscious memory is beyond me. And as i experienced these phenomenons, I knew it was not my brain, nor my senses that comprehended, but something else. I did not know what. Separating from self felt like a droplet of water separating from the faucet, it was slow at first, then BAM, the tension breaks and I was gone. I could also distinctly remember what it felt like to be born from my mother. the same sensation. And as my body dissolved I distinctly remember the memory of my cells splitting in reverse. It felt like I was going backwards in time in hyper rewind, my cells merged with one another in the same way they had split in the first place, and in rapid succession, I was down to the last two cells, and they too, merged and I was only one cell, then poof, nothing at all.

at some point I realized that I was now going away from it, and I thought, oh, rebirth, and felt disappointed, that I did not get to merge with it completely. As I began, I suppose I'll call it descent, I felt my body start to reform. Molecule by molecule, it was peaceful and slow, I almost savored it's return and the sensation of buzzing. But at some point, my hand brushed against something, I grabbed it, it was a root underwater. I followed the root and pulled myself to shore. I don't think I was unconscious for more than a minute because of the distance I floated down stream, but it felt like a hundred years. I immediately coughed up a lungful of water, and could not move from the intense cramping of my muscles. I lay there for a while, then crawled back upstream along the bank till friends saw me.

I can't stress enough that trying to put words to the experience is totally useless. because it's not at all what the experience was like. I'm trying to find examples in my known world to try and use similies and metaphors to describe something that is not like that at all. I'm sure if you had experienced it yourself, you would feel the same way. I would hate for anyone to pick at the examples I use to try and make a point one way or another. Because it's not at all like I'm describing it. I'm really at a loss for words. The best way is to draw a picture of it, but I do not have enough tools in the universe to draw such a thing, plus it existed in such a rainbow hued geometric folding and unfolding multi dimension, that any attempt at recreating it would fall far short. One thing I saw in life that most reminded me of the thing was the inside tile work of a Muslim mosque. The intricate interlaced tile work surrounding you on all sides, so much so that if you blurred your eyes, you would not see the walls, but only be swallowed up by the interlaced tiles. And the patterns were not only on the walls, but extended out in all directions simultaneously, like being a molecule on the inside of a crystalline structure. Every where you look was rainbow hued interconnectedness, I knew intrinsically that the material wa the material of all things, it was the building block of all things. I remember thinking that it looked liked the double helix of the DNA but in all directions thru all dimensions.

Again, I'm sure at this point, you the reader, if you had not seen it yourself, is saying to yourself, this guy is so far off his rocker. And that's why I never tell anyone about it, because it's useless, pointless, you'll all see it one day. No one is spared it's presence, no matter what your faith, no matter what your life path, when you die, you'll see it, as clearly as you see the sun rise and set. Of course I can't be sure of that either, because I can only say that i saw it, and the intrinsic feeling is that it was the source. But I have no idea what that means either.

I have been able to recreate the experience on several occasions with the help of Shamans and meditation. And I have read some descriptions of it that is fairly accurate. The Tibetan book of the dead is one of them. It was like the story of three blind men feeling up an elephant, each saying something different, feels like a snake, a banana leaf, a great big wall, all were describing the same thing, but no one is right, and yet they are alright. I will always be able to tell when someone is describing what I saw even though their words may be so different from mine. I will always know they saw it too.

[B. W.]

Thanks for posting and sharing buddhawarrior

In order that this thread stays on track, hope you don't mind, but I'll make a new thread and call it NDE Accounts and we can discuss further. The new thread will appear under the General Chit Chat subject heading. I will copy and post your experience there as that would be a good place befitting the Board Guidelines for that section.

I moved it too...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =2&t=36970