AIG-Big Bang Video

[RickD]

I was searching the Answers in Genesis website, and came across this video: http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/v ... a-big-bang I cannot express how I feel after watching this. Jason Lisle COMPLETELY misrepresents the OEC theory about the Big Bang. Is this man a Christian? It makes me mad enough that his preaching is full of lies and half-truths. But what really gets me steamed, is that he is teaching this to a bunch of kids. He is just completely dishonest in that video. The fact that the video looks old(Jason Lisle looks like a kid himself) is not an excuse for its message. I haven't even looked at the part 2 of this yet. Please watch this video, and let me know what you think. I am trying to study the subject of age of the earth/universe with an open mind and am trying to be honest with myself with all points of view. This just completely shows that AIG has an agenda and isn't being honest. Thanks for letting me get this off my chest.

[derrick09]

I whole heartedly agree Rick. What is also very scary is the major risk these kids have of later becomming atheists after they finally get a good dose of secular science education on the views of the big bang. Since many of them will never hear about old earth creationism they will automatically assume that all creationists are young earth creationists and thus assume that all creationists lie and or are dishonest with their data, and thus won't have anything to do with Christianity again. When I was making the switch from YEC to OEC I was tempted to just give up and join the atheist side but after I put my emotions aside and began trying to study things from a objective point of view, I was thankfully able to salvage my faith. It makes me wonder just like you are Rick if some of these guys are closet atheists trying to further draw people away from Christianity. Either way it really makes you think. Let me know what you think. Thanks for your post Rick.

[Gman]

I was searching the Answers in Genesis website, and came across this video: http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/v ... a-big-bang I cannot express how I feel after watching this. Jason Lisle COMPLETELY misrepresents the OEC theory about the Big Bang. Is this man a Christian? It makes me mad enough that his preaching is full of lies and half-truths. But what really gets me steamed, is that he is teaching this to a bunch of kids. He is just completely dishonest in that video. The fact that the video looks old(Jason Lisle looks like a kid himself) is not an excuse for its message. I haven't even looked at the part 2 of this yet. Please watch this video, and let me know what you think. I am trying to study the subject of age of the earth/universe with an open mind and am trying to be honest with myself with all points of view. This just completely shows that AIG has an agenda and isn't being honest. Thanks for letting me get this off my chest.

Pretty sad stuff... Also sad to see the brainwashing of the kids there. Jason Lisle calls the Big Bang a naturalist's view? That's funny, because the origin of the Big Bang theory began with a Christian.

Again, it all boils down to the interpretation of Scripture. Many YEC are extremely fearful that the Big Bang is a distortion of scripture. Fighting a fight that doesn't even exist. Well anyone with a tiny bit of Hebrew understanding can see that it doesn't. So why all the fuss? Pride. It's all about how one will stand against all odds and stand for God, because no one else will (supposedly). Many years ago I fell into a cult, and I believe AIG has the exact same message of a cult. And that is driven by fear..

Nonetheless, I believe that the atheists will actually love this video by AIG. Absolutely love it..

[Byblos]

I listened to the entire lecture and I must confess, I came away with the impression the guy knew what he was talking about. Here's a guy who's a PHD in astrophysics, who is infinitely smarter than me and I would venture to guess smarter than the majority of us, and who can reconcile his scientific observations with a young earth. We'd be fools not at least consider a reflective pause. So please let's not forget we are talking about brothers and sisters in Christ. We may vehemently disagree with their interpretation (of both science and scripture) but let's not resort to name-calling or labeling, something we tend to accuse YECers of doing, we shouldn't turn around and do the same thing. Two wrongs seldom make a right.

One of the world's leading astronomical observatories is in the Vatican (and another recently established in Arizona I believe), yet the Catholic Church has always distanced itself from making dogmatic statements on the universe's or earth's time span, one way or the other. There's a reason for that, the least of which is to avoid repeating the Galileo debacle. I am just as likely to see Catholic OECers as YECers and would never dare question their theology based on their stance vis a vis this subject. Please let us all keep that in mind when discussing OEC/YEC issues.

[BavarianWheels]

I listened to the entire lecture and I must confess, I came away with the impression the guy knew what he was talking about. Here's a guy who's a PHD in astrophysics, who is infinitely smarter than me and I would venture to guess smarter than the majority of us, and who can reconcile his scientific observations with a young earth. We'd be fools not at least consider a reflective pause. So please let's not forget we are talking about brothers and sisters in Christ. We may vehemently disagree with their interpretation (of both science and scripture) but let's not resort to name-calling or labeling, something we tend to accuse YECers of doing, we shouldn't turn around and do the same thing. Two wrongs seldom make a right.

One of the world's leading astronomical observatories is in the Vatican (and another recently established in Arizona I believe), yet the Catholic Church has always distanced itself from making dogmatic statements on the universe's or earth's time span, one way or the other. There's a reason for that, the least of which is to avoid repeating the Galileo debacle. I am just as likely to see Catholic OECers as YECers and would never dare question their theology based on their stance vis a vis this subject. Please let us all keep that in mind when discussing OEC/YEC issues.

One thing is making a stand in your beliefs. It is yet a whole other thing to shove these beliefs down the throats of others.
Making a stand is honorable.
.
.

[Byblos]

One thing is making a stand in your beliefs. It is yet a whole other thing to shove these beliefs down the throats of others.
Making a stand is honorable.

I wholeheartedly agree. As long as the stand is honorable enough not be shoved back down someone else's throat.

[RickD]

I listened to the entire lecture and I must confess, I came away with the impression the guy knew what he was talking about. Here's a guy who's a PHD in astrophysics, who is infinitely smarter than me and I would venture to guess smarter than the majority of us, and who can reconcile his scientific observations with a young earth. We'd be fools not at least consider a reflective pause. So please let's not forget we are talking about brothers and sisters in Christ. We may vehemently disagree with their interpretation (of both science and scripture) but let's not resort to name-calling or labeling, something we tend to accuse YECers of doing, we shouldn't turn around and do the same thing. Two wrongs seldom make a right.

.

Byblos, I must respectfully say, you completely missed the point of my original post. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with his YEC views. I'm saying he completely misrepresented the big bang theory. Some prominent OEC bible believing Christians believe in the big bang, and don't believe in the evolution that Jason Lisle proposes in that video. Just look at the graph 4-5 minutes into the video to see what I'm talking about. If he completely misrepresents a Christian OEC view, I can only imagine how he represents a naturalistic evolutionist point of view. If we as Christians(whether OEC or YEC) can't be honest In how we represent ourselves and others, how can we hope to be a witness for Christ? That is my point. I really don't care how intelligent he is. He is not being honest. He and AIG claim to be a witness for Christ. To be misleading and lying about the big bang proponents while doing it in a classroom full of kids is reprehensible. Should we not as Christians point this out and be outraged? I'm searching for the truth about creation and science, and to hear this kind of garbage from anyone in his position, whether YEC or OEC, is inexcusable. That is my point. I'm not putting down his YEC beliefs, only his witness for Christ.

[Byblos]

Byblos, I must respectfully say, you completely missed the point of my original post. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with his YEC views. I'm saying he completely misrepresented the big bang theory. Some prominent OEC bible believing Christians believe in the big bang, and don't believe in the evolution that Jason Lisle proposes in that video. Just look at the graph 4-5 minutes into the video to see what I'm talking about. If he completely misrepresents a Christian OEC view, I can only imagine how he represents a naturalistic evolutionist point of view. If we as Christians(whether OEC or YEC) can't be honest In how we represent ourselves and others, how can we hope to be a witness for Christ? That is my point. I really don't care how intelligent he is. He is not being honest. He and AIG claim to be a witness for Christ. To be misleading and lying about the big bang proponents while doing it in a classroom full of kids is reprehensible. Should we not as Christians point this out and be outraged? I'm searching for the truth about creation and science, and to hear this kind of garbage from anyone in his position, whether YEC or OEC, is inexcusable. That is my point. I'm not putting down his YEC beliefs, only his witness for Christ.

Your last statement is exactly what I was talking about. How can you possibly put down his witness for Christ, without, at a minimum, offering some rebuttal for the points he raised? I mean, try to put down his science first, before putting down his theology.

Look, I'm not defending his position, obviously. I am OEC. But having participated in countless debates on the subject, it was always our (OEC) position that YECers unfairly accuse us of not believing God or even of downright heresy if we don't read yom as a literal 24 hour days, and we got sick of it. What I am finding now is that we are falling in the same exact trap of counter accusations we abhorred yesterday. Why? Why have we adopted such tactics while expecting others to refrain from using them? That is my point.

[RickD]

Byblos, You are still missing my point. Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I'm sorry. I'm not attempting to refute his science or theology. I'm saying he is not being an honest witness because of his misrepresentation of big bang believers. He is making statements about big bang believers that are not true. If he can't be honest about that, what kind of witness is he? I realize YECs and OECs both claim a different interpretation of the Bible. My point is about being an "honest" witness for Christ. If his beliefs are correct, he should have nothing to fear from other beliefs; whether evolution or OEC. Hugh Ross and Rich Deem(from what I've seen) don't misrepresent evolutionists and YECs when they try to debate or teach their point of view.

[Byblos]

Byblos, You are still missing my point. Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I'm sorry. I'm not attempting to refute his science or theology. I'm saying he is not being an honest witness because of his misrepresentation of big bang believers. He is making statements about big bang believers that are not true. If he can't be honest about that, what kind of witness is he? I realize YECs and OECs both claim a different interpretation of the Bible. My point is about being an "honest" witness for Christ. If his beliefs are correct, he should have nothing to fear from other beliefs; whether evolution or OEC. Hugh Ross and Rich Deem(from what I've seen) don't misrepresent evolutionists and YECs when they try to debate or teach their point of view.

Perhaps you're right that I'm missing your point, I don't know. How is he misrepresenting the big bang theory? (I'm really asking, not arguing).

[RickD]

Byblos, You are still missing my point. Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I'm sorry. I'm not attempting to refute his science or theology. I'm saying he is not being an honest witness because of his misrepresentation of big bang believers. He is making statements about big bang believers that are not true. If he can't be honest about that, what kind of witness is he? I realize YECs and OECs both claim a different interpretation of the Bible. My point is about being an "honest" witness for Christ. If his beliefs are correct, he should have nothing to fear from other beliefs; whether evolution or OEC. Hugh Ross and Rich Deem(from what I've seen) don't misrepresent evolutionists and YECs when they try to debate or teach their point of view.

Perhaps you're right that I'm missing your point, I don't know. How is he misrepresenting the big bang theory? (I'm really asking, not arguing).

Did you watch the video? He says the big bang theory is an evolutionary theory. He says the big bang theory eliminates God. He says You can't believe in the big bang theory and believe in the bible. He says his interpretation of the bible is the only possible correct interpretation. Basically saying the bible is correct only if it's his interpretation of the bible. He says the big bang model says"chemicals happen to form life, and life evolves into you." He says according to the big bang, "we can't know the cause of the universe." He says the big bang theory and the bible are irreconcilable.

[Byblos]

Perhaps you're right that I'm missing your point, I don't know. How is he misrepresenting the big bang theory? (I'm really asking, not arguing).

Did you watch the video? He says the big bang theory is an evolutionary theory. He says the big bang theory eliminates God. He says You can't believe in the big bang theory and believe in the bible. He says his interpretation of the bible is the only possible correct interpretation. Basically saying the bible is correct only if it's his interpretation of the bible. He says the big bang model says"chemicals happen to form life, and life evolves into you." He says according to the big bang, "we can't know the cause of the universe." He says the big bang theory and the bible are irreconcilable.

I heard all of that when I watched the video and attributed it to an opinion on the big bang as related to scripture as he interprets it. It's pretty much a typical hard line YEC stance. Of course I disagree with it, and certainly we can rebut his claims (one way comes to mind is Gman's post not so long ago showing how science aligns perfectly with the creation model over time, a remarkable post, I'll search for the link). But I'm not ready to call him a false witness to Christ because of his stance.

[RickD]

Byblos, again, I'm not calling him a false witness for Christ because of his stance. I am questioning his witness for Christ because of his dishonest representation of OEC big bang believers. If I or any true Christian has a system that we promote, I expect an honest look at other views. He is teaching those children that if someone believes in the big bang, that particular someone has to reject the Bible. That is very dishonest.

[Byblos]

Byblos, again, I'm not calling him a false witness for Christ because of his stance. I am questioning his witness for Christ because of his dishonest representation of OEC big bang believers. If I or any true Christian has a system that we promote, I expect an honest look at other views. He is teaching those children that if someone believes in the big bang, that particular someone has to reject the Bible. That is very dishonest.

I hear what you're saying and I agree.

I was merely throwing a word of caution so we don't fall in the same trap.