Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?

[rare96ws6]

Actually there have been many wars in which Christains killed in God's name, so some Christians are killers.
Also, every time CPR or any life saving measure is performed on a person, we are taking life and death into
our own hands, not leaving it up to God.
It seems the reasons why Christians do not kill their children are a purly emotional one and not a logical ones
at all. Knowing there is a chance your child could go to hell for eternity is a horrible, but very liklely outcome,
since most people will end up in hell and not heaven according to the Bible. This question is very perplexing to
me.

[cslewislover]

Actually there have been many wars in which Christains killed in God's name, so some Christians are killers.
Also, every time CPR or any life saving measure is performed on a person, we are taking life and death into
our own hands, not leaving it up to God.
It seems the reasons why Christians do not kill their children are a purly emotional one and not a logical ones
at all. Knowing there is a chance your child could go to hell for eternity is a horrible, but very liklely outcome,
since most people will end up in hell and not heaven according to the Bible. This question is very perplexing to
me.

God commanded us not to kill. That is, not to murder. We are not to premeditatedly kill our children or anyone else. If we did that to our children in order to "save" them, we'd not only be breaking God's direct command, we would also be thinking within ourselves that we know the person we were killing would be saved and be not leaving that up to God and the person involved. I myself am not convinced of the "age of accountability," and it has been addressed on another thread. I'd have to find it to post here . . .

[rare96ws6]

In an earier post to this thread I mentioned that God was actually showing mercy by killing the having the Israelites kill the children of their enemies. The children were not murdered, just killed. If a Christan kills his/her child, it is not murder, but a mercy killing just like thwe Bible shows us.
Here are some verses about children going to Heaven.

Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it. (Deuteronomy 1:39)

And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:2-3)

If there is no age of accountability then God either creates people and sends them to Hell without a chance at Heaven or he gives them a chance to come to him that does not include accepting Jesus as their savor while alive on this eath. If the later is true, then it would seem that God never had to send Jesus since there are other wasy to get into Heaven.

[cslewislover]

In an earier post to this thread I mentioned that God was actually showing mercy by killing the having the Israelites kill the children of their enemies. The children were not murdered, just killed. If a Christan kills his/her child, it is not murder, but a mercy killing just like thwe Bible shows us.

You know what, you're really scaring me . . . I'd have to go over that part of what you wrote, but as far as I know, God had the Israelites kill their enemies so that their enemies wouldn't rise up and kill them later. That's at least part of it. NO, we are not to kill our children. That's MURDER. Christians are not to kill.

Here are some verses about children going to Heaven.

Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it. (Deuteronomy 1:39)

And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:2-3)

If there is no age of accountability then God either creates people and sends them to Hell without a chance at Heaven or he gives them a chance to come to him that does not include accepting Jesus as their savor while alive on this eath. If the later is true, then it would seem that God never had to send Jesus since there are other wasy to get into Heaven.

There are other verses that go against an age of accountability, or certain ages that it might be in effect. I'll try and find that thread soon (or ref.s to various interpretations) . . . today. What I think of this personally follows the theology that God foreknows who are saved, and he then draws them with His Holy Spirit. In this church age with this going on, I don't see why children, just because they're children, would automatically be saved if they die young. God foreknows who will come to Him, and I don't think time in the way we know it plays a role. If you are one of God's, it's as if you always have been; this makes sense to me (and it falls in line with predestination). I don't think someone who God can foreknow as choosing Him would end up changing his or her mind. Some might say that children are completely innocent and would choose to be with God, up until a certain point, and that's why they would be saved automatically (like in your Deut verse). But I have a hard time with this, and I don't think that Deut verse is the end of the story regarding this subject. What I'm saying is my own opinion and maybe others will pipe in and disagree with me; that's fine, and maybe there are older threads that discuss this more that I'm not yet aware of myself. But the point is, I don't think it's that simple and we can't just go around killing children, thinking we're doing them a big favor.

What you say in the end is incorrect, in my view. There are all kinds of people who never end up hearing of Jesus directly, and I do not believe all of them go to hell. God calls those who are His, in various ways (including outright visions, which there are testimonies of today that come out of restricted nations). But Jesus also commanded us to go and tell the good news to all nations.

Ok. I believe this is the age of accountability thread I was thinking of: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ntability+

[rare96ws6]

In an earier post to this thread I mentioned that God was actually showing mercy by killing the having the Israelites kill the children of their enemies. The children were not murdered, just killed. If a Christan kills his/her child, it is not murder, but a mercy killing just like thwe Bible shows us.

You know what, you're really scaring me . . . I'd have to go over that part of what you wrote, but as far as I know, God had the Israelites kill their enemies so that their enemies wouldn't rise up and kill them later. That's at least part of it. NO, we are not to kill our children. That's MURDER. Christians are not to kill.

Here are some verses about children going to Heaven.

Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it. (Deuteronomy 1:39)

And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:2-3)

If there is no age of accountability then God either creates people and sends them to Hell without a chance at Heaven or he gives them a chance to come to him that does not include accepting Jesus as their savor while alive on this eath. If the later is true, then it would seem that God never had to send Jesus since there are other wasy to get into Heaven.

There are other verses that go against an age of accountability, or certain ages that it might be in effect. I'll try and find that thread soon (or ref.s to various interpretations) . . . today. What I think of this personally follows the theology that God foreknows who are saved, and he then draws them with His Holy Spirit. In this church age with this going on, I don't see why children, just because they're children, would automatically be saved if they die young. God foreknows who will come to Him, and I don't think time in the way we know it plays a role. If you are one of God's, it's as if you always have been; this makes sense to me (and it falls in line with predestination). I don't think someone who God can foreknow as choosing Him would end up changing his or her mind. Some might say that children are completely innocent and would choose to be with God, up until a certain point, and that's why they would be saved automatically (like in your Deut verse). But I have a hard time with this, and I don't think that Deut verse is the end of the story regarding this subject. What I'm saying is my own opinion and maybe others will pipe in and disagree with me; that's fine, and maybe there are older threads that discuss this more that I'm not yet aware of myself. But the point is, I don't think it's that simple and we can't just go around killing children, thinking we're doing them a big favor.

What you say in the end is incorrect, in my view. There are all kinds of people who never end up hearing of Jesus directly, and I do not believe all of them go to hell. God calls those who are His, in various ways (including outright visions, which there are testimonies of today that come out of restricted nations). But Jesus also commanded us to go and tell the good news to all nations.

Ok. I believe this is the age of accountability thread I was thinking of: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ntability+

Believe me, I do not think it is right to kill our children, but I must admit that this may be just the emotional side to who we are telling us it is wrong. If a parent could see the future and know my child would reject God when he/she was old enough, what would that parent do? Obviously we can not see into the future, but this is a valid concern. Yes, murder is wrong, but so are the many other sins that many of us commit each and every day. We as humans see murder as worse than other sins, but in God's eyes a lie is just as bad.
You have to wonder why some verses seems to point to stating that children will go to heaven while others do not. Surely the Bible is not contradicting itself. Also, you mentioned the end of my last comment is incorrect, but I did not state they go to hell. I pondered the possibility that either God sends people to hell that never hear about Jesus on this earth, or he gives them a chance somewhere else. If he does give them a chance somewhere else, then Jesus never had to die. If there is any way to get into heaven other than by accepting Jesus as your personal savior while on this earth, then there was no need of the crusifixion.

[B. W.]

Believe me, I do not think it is right to kill our children, but I must admit that this may be just the emotional side to who we are telling us it is wrong. If a parent could see the future and know my child would reject God when he/she was old enough, what would that parent do? Obviously we can not see into the future, but this is a valid concern. Yes, murder is wrong, but so are the many other sins that many of us commit each and every day. We as humans see murder as worse than other sins, but in God's eyes a lie is just as bad.

You have to wonder why some verses seems to point to stating that children will go to heaven while others do not. Surely the Bible is not contradicting itself. Also, you mentioned the end of my last comment is incorrect, but I did not state they go to hell. I pondered the possibility that either God sends people to hell that never hear about Jesus on this earth, or he gives them a chance somewhere else. If he does give them a chance somewhere else, then Jesus never had to die. If there is any way to get into heaven other than by accepting Jesus as your personal savior while on this earth, then there was no need of the crusifixion.

Job 34:23 - "For God has no need to consider a man further, that he should go before God in judgment..." ESV
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[cslewislover]

Believe me, I do not think it is right to kill our children, but I must admit that this may be just the emotional side to who we are telling us it is wrong. If a parent could see the future and know my child would reject God when he/she was old enough, what would that parent do? Obviously we can not see into the future, but this is a valid concern. Yes, murder is wrong, but so are the many other sins that many of us commit each and every day. We as humans see murder as worse than other sins, but in God's eyes a lie is just as bad.
You have to wonder why some verses seems to point to stating that children will go to heaven while others do not. Surely the Bible is not contradicting itself. Also, you mentioned the end of my last comment is incorrect, but I did not state they go to hell. I pondered the possibility that either God sends people to hell that never hear about Jesus on this earth, or he gives them a chance somewhere else. If he does give them a chance somewhere else, then Jesus never had to die. If there is any way to get into heaven other than by accepting Jesus as your personal savior while on this earth, then there was no need of the crusifixion.

Why would a lie be just as bad as murder? In the one, a lie, both people can deal with it somehow afterwards. When you kill a person, they no longer can deal with things, the most important being their choice to be with God or not. They are both sins, lies and murder, but the effects of them can be far different. In the one, you're being deceitful, in the other, you're playing God by taking an individual's most important choice away (if they hadn't decided yet).

You didn't read all that I said, it seems. People do need to accept Christ. I wrote about Christ appearing to people who do not have access to God's writings like we do. Christ will make himself known to those who are His, while they are living here. His death was necessary to cover our sins, yes. His work was enough to save the whole world, for whoever in the world will accept Him.

[BavarianWheels]

Why would a lie be just as bad as murder?

I think rare... means in the sense of sin is sin no matter it's apparent human scale.
The breaking of one command is to break them all.
.
.

[cslewislover]

Why would a lie be just as bad as murder?

I think rare... means in the sense of sin is sin no matter it's apparent human scale.
The breaking of one command is to break them all.
.
.

Yes, I understand. I was just thinking more along the lines of the effects of it on others, not really the fact that our breaking of God's commands separates us from Him, no matter what they are.

[rare96ws6]

Why would a lie be just as bad as murder?

I think rare... means in the sense of sin is sin no matter it's apparent human scale.
The breaking of one command is to break them all.
.
.

Yes, I understand. I was just thinking more along the lines of the effects of it on others, not really the fact that our breaking of God's commands separates us from Him, no matter what they are.

Yes, I was refering to sin all being the same to us, not God. As far as lying goes, it can have worse consequences than killing a person. It can lead to killing millions. For instance, look at the lies told by the pope during the crusades, that if you fight in the Holy land, you will attain Heaven. Lots of people died because of a lie.
One thing you made me think of as far as the sin of killing goes is this. What is more important, eternity in the right place, or one sin? If one sin, the killing of a child, assures a child an eternity in Heaven, isn't it better than taking a chance? This is by no means anything I would reccomend, but it makes me wonder why it is not done.

[B. W.]

Yes, I was refering to sin all being the same to us, not God. As far as lying goes, it can have worse consequences than killing a person. It can lead to killing millions. For instance, look at the lies told by the pope during the crusades, that if you fight in the Holy land, you will attain Heaven. Lots of people died because of a lie.

One thing you made me think of as far as the sin of killing goes is this. What is more important, eternity in the right place, or one sin? If one sin, the killing of a child, assures a child an eternity in Heaven, isn't it better than taking a chance? This is by no means anything I would reccomend, but it makes me wonder why it is not done.

All sin is the same to God, but not to us. As far as lying it can lead to killing multiplied millions. For instance, look at the lies told by the likes of Che, Castro, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao, abortion enthusiast, allwhm are of various socialist progressive ideas during the past 120 years who believe that if we all just follow them we will attain Heaven's utopia on earth. More died due to the tenant's of faith Evolutionary or Progressive Socialism than all the wars of religion combined.

Lots of people die because of a lie, even the unborn, even for the noblest sounding of reasons…
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[cslewislover]

Yes, I was refering to sin all being the same to us, not God. As far as lying goes, it can have worse consequences than killing a person. It can lead to killing millions. For instance, look at the lies told by the pope during the crusades, that if you fight in the Holy land, you will attain Heaven. Lots of people died because of a lie.
One thing you made me think of as far as the sin of killing goes is this. What is more important, eternity in the right place, or one sin? If one sin, the killing of a child, assures a child an eternity in Heaven, isn't it better than taking a chance? This is by no means anything I would reccomend, but it makes me wonder why it is not done.

Ok, sure, as you and BW pointed out. But it still flatly goes against what God tells us not to do, murder. Why would you be so interested in heaven, or heaven for your children, if you are so blithely thinking of going against God's commands?? It makes no sense. Either you love God and want to obey him, or you don't. You would putting yourself in the place of God and that person by deciding their fate for them (supposedly . . . I'm not convinced it would be case myself).

[rare96ws6]

Yes, I was refering to sin all being the same to us, not God. As far as lying goes, it can have worse consequences than killing a person. It can lead to killing millions. For instance, look at the lies told by the pope during the crusades, that if you fight in the Holy land, you will attain Heaven. Lots of people died because of a lie.
One thing you made me think of as far as the sin of killing goes is this. What is more important, eternity in the right place, or one sin? If one sin, the killing of a child, assures a child an eternity in Heaven, isn't it better than taking a chance? This is by no means anything I would reccomend, but it makes me wonder why it is not done.

Ok, sure, as you and BW pointed out. But it still flatly goes against what God tells us not to do, murder. Why would you be so interested in heaven, or heaven for your children, if you are so blithely thinking of going against God's commands?? It makes no sense. Either you love God and want to obey him, or you don't. You would putting yourself in the place of God and that person by deciding their fate for them (supposedly . . . I'm not convinced it would be case myself).

Like I said, sin once to ensure heaven for your child. It sounds like a baragin to me, but yet Christians do not do this. Everyone sins, so one more sin in the sea of many we will commit in our lifetime seems like a fair trade for a child being put into Heaven.
I know that not all Christians agree that children go to Heaven, but if they do not, then God made people who never had a chance to accept him. This could also be seen in people who are mentally challenged. Without the capacity to know God, how can you accept him?

[cslewislover]

I feel there is no point in continuing this farther. Yes, we all sin, but as children of God, we will repent of it sooner or later. You are talking about premeditatedly murdering your own children, against God's command not to murder, and since you think it's for a very good cause, there seems no reason why you would ever repent. So, you think it is good to go against one of God's ten commandments and take a life, an innocent life at that. You clearly want to go against God's will because of some round about rationalizing, the creature willfully overstepping the Creator. This is what Satan did, it's the whole idea behind the Fall. Disobeying God by rationalizing His commands away, and becoming like God (so the thoughts of man go). We do not have the power to really save anyone, and to use that as a rationale for disobeying God in a very clear way is to me the opposite of righteous, to put it mildly.

[rare96ws6]

I feel there is no point in continuing this farther. Yes, we all sin, but as children of God, we will repent of it sooner or later. You are talking about premeditatedly murdering your own children, against God's command not to murder, and since you think it's for a very good cause, there seems no reason why you would ever repent. So, you think it is good to go against one of God's ten commandments and take a life, an innocent life at that. You clearly want to go against God's will because of some round about rationalizing, the creature willfully overstepping the Creator. This is what Satan did, it's the whole idea behind the Fall. Disobeying God by rationalizing His commands away, and becoming like God (so the thoughts of man go). We do not have the power to really save anyone, and to use that as a rationale for disobeying God in a very clear way is to me the opposite of righteous, to put it mildly.

No point in continuing? Why? I asked a simple question, although from the comments it seems it is a tough one to rationalize. You are not debating an atheist here who cares nothing for the Bible and understanding it. I would never do such a thing as murder a child or anyone for that matter. You misinterpret what I wrote if you think I want to go against what God's commandments are. I simply stated that sinning once seems the lesser of two evils compared to my child ending up in Hell for eternity. Wouldn't you agree?
If a Christian did such a thing, they could repent and ask for God's forgiveness as the Bible states we should do. It seems more cruel to allow a child to grow up and then end up in hell if they did not come to God, then to murder them before they reach the age of accoutability. This is really troubling to me, not some off the wall comment to poke fun at Christains. I grew up in a Christain home and now as an adult, trying to find the truth, I have such questions.