What is Faith?

[DannyM]

I've been perusing the boards lately and have come across one or two posters attempting to place an emphasis between science and faith. But I want to suggest that science itself must hold (at the very least) an element of faith; I want to hold that if we try out some experiment within an empirical framework then we have to hold that any result of an evidence-based venture will have to be held on faith until the next round of evidence based research based upon the very same event.

What we perceive is ultimately held on faith until we have the opportunity to next observe the very thing which we are holding on faith. What god-given right do we possess to diregard faith for an absolutist approach to life?

God bless

[DannyM]

Okay. I may have been a little vague. Right, faith can be defined in more ways that one. Faith can be defined as believing in something which cannot be proven. But faith can also be - and perhaps *must* be - applied to knowledge; faith must be applied to what we perceive. What we see and what we know are things which are arrived at by an unconscious process - like, an "image-making" process. We thus must depend upon an element of faith in the unawareness, the unconsciousness, of our image-making processes.

If I fall dizzy and the floor beneath me appears to turn rapidly and my legs feel as though they might be swept out from under me, then it is the image I have of a stable, stationary floor which helps me overcome the dizzy feelings and I must ultimately rely on the faith in what I know and the unconscious process which makes me arrive at that knowledge.

So even the scientific process, or what ultimately lies beneath and unconscious to that process, requires faith. Faith must uphold the unconscious processes that help us arrive at knowledge.

Is anyone with me as I spin around on this doughnut? Am I talking nonsense?

God bless

[B. W.]

Hi DannyM

Faith is the English translation from the Greek word Pistis. Believe is the same word but in verb from — pisteuo. Another Greek word is dokeo which basically means — to think and reason (in order to believe).

Somehow the dokeo meaning has become mixed in the definition of Faith and its action verb form believe and we kind of lost the meaning intended from the words translated faith / believe.

The Hebrew word that means faith / believe is aman which has a wide array of meanings of ranging from - trust, being persuaded, trustworthiness, trustworthy, trust, faithful, Knowing that the rug will not be pulled out from under you. The implication of aman is the kind of trust that produces a change in ones character and nature: It is a word of action. For example: Abram believed God… and what did he do with that belief?? How did it affect his life entire course?

Faith moves beyond mere reasoning and thinking into an action that changes ones course of life. Believe as used in the New Testament should be spelled Faithing so one understands how the word is used in the context in which it is used.

So the question should be raise:

Do you trust (have Faith, Believe-Faith-ing) that Jesus Christ is more than able to keep you saved because you can add nothing from yourself to keep yourself saved?

After this — how does your belief affect and impact your life? It is that affect and impact defines the action of faith-ing in Christ. So reader — are you a believer (faith-er) in Christ?

Next please note as an aside how much of the New Testament speaks of being transformed and renewed. The gospel has an intended effect upon those Faith-ers in Christ. Examine our selves whether we be in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).

Before someone chimes in and says faith and belief is not human works based and all you do is need to believe to be saved, FYI - I am not saying otherwise either. I find the question posed above is something we need to consider: Do you trust (have Faith, Believe-Faithing) that Jesus Christ is more than able to keep you saved (delivered, rescued) because you can add nothing from yourself to keep yourself saved?

Such is the Grace of God as the NIV states in Titus 2: 11, 12, 15 — Grace teaches (instructs us) to say NO to the ways of sin that we live soberly — righteously in our present time.

Do you trust (have Faith, Believe-Faithing) that Jesus Christ is more than able to keep you saved (delivered, rescued)?

Like Abram — will you get up and leave the old country and begin the journey to the promise land?

Genesis 15:6, 7
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[Alan McDougall]

Faith to a Christian is the absolute belief that God exists!!

[DannyM]

Hi B.W.,

Bless you for your thoughtful response.

Faith is the English translation from the Greek word Pistis. Believe is the same word but in verb from — pisteuo. Another Greek word is dokeo which basically means — to think and reason (in order to believe).

Somehow the dokeo meaning has become mixed in the definition of Faith and its action verb form believe and we kind of lost the meaning intended from the words translated faith / believe. -

I was always under the impression that “dokeo” is Greek for “to seem” or “appear”. Hence the docetist heresy in holding that Jesus only “appeared” to be human. But I guess we're not a million miles apart.

The Hebrew word that means faith / believe is aman which has a wide array of meanings of ranging from - trust, being persuaded, trustworthiness, trustworthy, trust, faithful, Knowing that the rug will not be pulled out from under you. The implication of aman is the kind of trust that produces a change in ones character and nature: It is a word of action. For example: Abram believed God… and what did he do with that belief?? How did it affect his life entire course?

Faith moves beyond mere reasoning and thinking into an action that changes ones course of life. Believe as used in the New Testament should be spelled Faithing so one understands how the word is used in the context in which it is used. -

I couldn't agree much more with you!

So the question should be raise: Do you trust (have Faith, Believe-Faith-ing) that Jesus Christ is more than able to keep you saved because you can add nothing from yourself to keep yourself saved?

After this — how does your belief affect and impact your life? It is that affect and impact defines the action of faith-ing in Christ. So reader — are you a believer (faith-er) in Christ?

Next please note as an aside how much of the New Testament speaks of being transformed and renewed. The gospel has an intended effect upon those Faith-ers in Christ. Examine our selves whether we be in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).

Before someone chimes in and says faith and belief is not human works based and all you do is need to believe to be saved, FYI - I am not saying otherwise either. I find the question posed above is something we need to consider: Do you trust (have Faith, Believe-Faithing) that Jesus Christ is more than able to keep you saved (delivered, rescued) because you can add nothing from yourself to keep yourself saved? -

Okay. But, although faith is in effect all that is required, this does not exonerate you from good works. Paul, in his stress on faith, was largely countering the Jews who were stringently keeping with the old laws. James was adamant about works as well as faith. But the truth lies somewhere in between and faith, while paramount, should not mean we relax with our feet up and a fat cigar.

Such is the Grace of God as the NIV states in Titus 2: 11, 12, 15 — Grace teaches (instructs us) to say NO to the ways of sin that we live soberly — righteously in our present time.

Do you trust (have Faith, Believe-Faithing) that Jesus Christ is more than able to keep you saved (delivered, rescued)?

Like Abram — will you get up and leave the old country and begin the journey to the promise land?

Genesis 15:6, 7
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I love your reply to me and I thank you, B.W. My main point was that, aside from the Christian's traditional rule of faith, science too requires a form of faith; the ”laws” we live by and adhere to daily require a form of faith. I should have worded my post appropriately and posted on the “science” thread — doh!! — but I don't regret it. Let's keep up the chatter about faith and works, yes?

God bless

[B. W.]

....I love your reply to me and I thank you, B.W. My main point was that, aside from the Christian's traditional rule of faith, science too requires a form of faith; the ”laws” we live by and adhere to daily require a form of faith. I should have worded my post appropriately and posted on the “science” thread — doh!! — but I don't regret it. Let's keep up the chatter about faith and works, yes?

God bless

Re-reading this post again and this thought occurred to me:

Next time an atheists confronts a Christian about faith — ask them if Loyalty, fidelity, commitment, to depend on, follow after, trustworthiness… do these exist? Do they exhibit any of these?

Loyalty, fidelity, commitment, to depend on, follows after, trustworthiness — all help define the words Faith and Believing as used in the bible.

If these exist and exhibited in the world of science such as loyalty, fidelity, commitment, depend on, follows after, trustworthiness, etc then Faith indeed exists and is not at all belief in a cosmic Santa clause as atheists tout.
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[jlay]

Faith to a Christian is the absolute belief that God exists!!

Really? i don't see it that way at all. There are plenty of people who have absolute belief that God exist and they are not Christian. If I say, "I have faith in my wife," am I merely saying, I have absolute belief that she exists? Nope. I am saying that I "know" her in a way that I can place my trust in her. Knowing she exists, although important is not what this faith describes. That is why the bible says, "only fool says there is no God."

[Canuckster1127]

Faith to a Christian would certainly involve and include the belief that God exists, but as you say jlay, there's more to it than that.

James 2:19 - You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

[Runner]

I believe that "faith" comes down to "living (or acting) as though you believe something is true." I have "faith" that my car is going to start when I turn the key (based on a very large body of evidence, so it's a very reliable faith). If I didn't have this faith, I'd just start walking home when I get off work. I've been a Christian for about 40 years, and I wouldn't claim an "absolute belief" that God exists or that Jesus is divine. Based on my own studies, observations, experiences and intuition, I believe that Christian theology is the best explanation for the universe in which we live. So I have an "inner conviction" that Christianity is true and choose to live my life as though it is true, while acknowledging that I could be mistaken or that the reality could prove to be quite different. This to me is faith -- living my life as though I believe Christianity is true, even though I can't "know" that it is. I believe that this is James' point in his discussion of faith and works: How you lead your life defines your faith, regardless of what you say you believe.

I used to post regularly in the now-defunct forum of the International Association for Near-Death Studies, where there was a running debate between near-death experiencers who claimed that they "knew" their beliefs were true on the basis of direct experience, while the rest of us merely hoped (or "had faith") that ours were true. In the same way, I can understand someone who has had an intense born-again experience, or who simply feels very close to God, claiming an "absolute belief" in the truth of Christianity. However, I believe that this really just boils down to a "strong inner conviction," or a "strong faith" versus a "weak faith," which is why I've never felt comfortable in churches where one has to at least pretend to have "absolute beliefs" to fit in. To me, how you live your life really defines what your faith is, whether it's the Christian faith, the rigid materialistic-atheistic faith, or whatever. So I believe that I'm in basic agreement with the original poster, DannyM.

[jlay]

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Heb. 11:1

[Runner]

With all due respect to the author of Hebrews, that really doesn't make sense. If we were "sure" of what we "hope for," we wouldn't be "hoping for" it. And in what sense can anyone be said to be "certain" of what one "does not see"? "Faith is living like we're sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" would make more sense. This seems to be a touchy subject with many Christians, as though pretending to be certain of things that one can't possibly be certain about were essential to being a "real" Christian.

[B. W.]

With all due respect to the author of Hebrews, that really doesn't make sense. If we were "sure" of what we "hope for," we wouldn't be "hoping for" it. And in what sense can anyone be said to be "certain" of what one "does not see"? "Faith is living like we're sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" would make more sense. This seems to be a touchy subject with many Christians, as though pretending to be certain of things that one can't possibly be certain about were essential to being a "real" Christian.

The Greek word translated Hope in Hebrews 11:1 does not mean Hope as we modern English speakers use it. We define Hope to mean a definite maybe.

The original Greek word had a far firmer meaning of having a desire built from firm expectation. It was not wishey washy but instead implies a solid knowing one will attain something thus anchors the soul to endure and overcome to achieve. That is biblical Hope — certaincy.

Let's look at this verse and go through word definitions, word order in both Greek and English translations and see what we shall see…

Hebrews 11:1 — “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” NASB

Here is the verse with the corresponding Strong's concordance numbers following after each word

Heb 11:1, “Now 1161 faith 4102 is 2076 the assurance 5287 of things hoped 1679 for, the conviction 1650 of things 4229 not seen 991.”

Here is how it reads in Greek in the original word order along with a brief meaning of these words noted below as best I could do all in accordance to tenses below that:

Heb 11:1 εστιν 2076 δε 1161 πιστις 4102 ελπιζομενων 1679 υποστασις 5287 πραγματων 4229 ελεγχος 1650 ου 3756 βλεπομενων 991

2076- Now - yes

1161- To be

4102- Faith

1679 - Expects with desire of (Translated in English as Hope) certaincy

5287-that which has actual substance, actual firmness, actual courage, actual resolution, actual confidence, actual firm trust, actual assurance

4229- of deeds, matter, things (performed)

1650- a verification, proof, evidence by which a thing is proved

3756-of not things

991-seen, tangible

Below is Hebrews 11:1 in accord to original Greek word order along with definitions according to tenses as best I can translate for now on the fly:

Hebrews 11:1 now — yes, to be Faith - firmly expects with desire of actual substance, confidence, actual assurance of things, for deeds, matters (performing) a verification of evidence (by which a thing is proven) of things not seen

Here are the words translated following the English NASB Translation:

Heb 11:1, Now yes, Faith, to be, the substance (assurance) of things (deeds, matters — performing the) expectation (with desire) for verifying evidence, conviction (by which a thing is proven) of things not seen.

How it reads in the NASB

Heb 11:1, “Now 1161 faith 4102 is 2076 the assurance 5287 of things hoped 1679 for, the conviction 1650 of things 4229 not seen 991.” NASB

Last Note

The original Greek word order follows the context of the rest of Hebrews 11 as examples of how faith works. How each person was firmly expecting with desire something God said — promised which is the actual substance, actual assurance of things, producing confidence in the hearers.

The people listed in Hebrews 11 then performed deeds, matters, as a verification of evidence by which a thing is proven (encompassing themselves, God's promises, things received hence all these things are implied by 4229) from what was not seen (tangible) [meaning what God said for them to do]

We miss this in our English translation how one verse sets the stage for what follows. So re-read chapter 11 in light of the first verse...

One last thing — this chapter is telling us Faith without works is dead. Faith is a Noun and along with its verb from translated as Believe are both words of action, not passivity!

Much of our modern definition for faith revolves around passivity — no action. No change needed, no change of life required, no repentance… Is it any wonder how much of the Modern Church world remains so stagnate, ineffectual?

In the light of this, does Hebrews 11 teach faith as active or passive?
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[Runner]

Super explanation, B.W.! Your statements at the beginning and end seem to me to capture the essence of what I was trying to say in regard to one's faith being defined by how one lives one's life:

"The original Greek word had a far firmer meaning of having a desire built from firm expectation. It was not wishy washy but instead implies a solid knowing one will attain something thus anchors the soul to endure and overcome to achieve." and "Much of our modern definition for faith revolves around passivity — no action. No change needed, no change of life required, no repentance… Is it any wonder how much of the Modern Church world remains so stagnate, ineffectual? "

[B. W.]

[quote="Runner"]
From Hebrews 11 — Faith is in God's word as verse 3 leads into. From there the writer goes on down the genealogical line. Noah was divinely warned. Abraham believed God — what he said and moved out of Ur and by his believing (faith-ing) God was accounted to him righteousness.

We have the word spoke by Jesus to us in John 3:15, 16. This is the actual substance to base ones' firm solid expectation: is what Jesus said. From this comes action in some form of action.

Basically, in analogy, like Abram — we are told to get up and move out of Ur which is like sin for us. Receive our new name as Abram did — Abraham — and have our faith in God refined, tested, purified as we head toward the new promise land.

Faith firmly expects from what God promises as true and that God is more than able to perform. Storms, hardship, bad times and good times come and go but one's faith is in what God says, promises, founded in the Bible. When we lay hold of what Jesus says in John 3:15, 16 our journey to the promise land begins (Hebrews 12:1).

This journey takes faith of the type that lays hold of the solid Rock of Christ — read Hebrews 13:20, 21 for more.

So, Runner our Faith is to be in Christ and his first promise that grants us entry into His Kingdom (that is our solid foundation) and from there, the Lord expands our faith in Him along the way…
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[Runner]

B.W., I don't disagree with anything you say, but I get back to what the original poster said: “But faith can also be - and perhaps *must* be - applied to knowledge; faith must be applied to what we perceive.” I don't believe that very many people (or at least very many adults) become Christians on the basis of a completely blind faith that God exists, Christ is divine and the Bible is the word of God. As I suggested in my original post, I believe that most people apply their knowledge, experiences and intuition to conclude that Christianity is the best explanation for the universe in which we find ourselves. (This may be a conscious or subconscious process, but it is basically what people do in arriving at their religious beliefs.) They then make an informed “leap of faith” into Christianity. In so doing, they choose to accept on faith the existence of God, the divinity of Christ and the Bible as the word of God. If their faith is strong (or grows to be strong), then as you say they have a “firm solid expectation” in all of these things. But a “firm solid expectation” is different from “certainty” or “absolute” belief. I may be quite a devout Christian, but if I'm honest I don't think I can say that my “firm solid expectation” in the truth of Christianity rises to the same level of faith as my “near certainty” that my wife will be waiting for me at home tonight. My two points were that: (1) I believe that faith is inevitably tied to one's knowledge, experiences and intuition; it's impossible to have faith in “things unseen” that are contrary to one's knowledge, experience and intuition (or to maintain one's sanity if one tries to do so). (2) I believe that how one lives one's life defines what one's faith actually is. I can say that I have “faith in Christ” -- but if there is zero evidence of this in my life, my supposed faith has no reality. I am simply lying to others and perhaps to myself.