Concern Citizen

[ManuelF]

“The purpose of the universe is to provide a temporary habitation for human beings to choose to love or reject God”
I read this line on your website and was really disturbed, if I'm not misinterpreting this means that the whole universe, THE WHOLE UNIVERSE!! Is just a waiting room?

[Byblos]

“The purpose of the universe is to provide a temporary habitation for human beings to choose to love or reject God”
I read this line on your website and was really disturbed, if I'm not misinterpreting this means that the whole universe, THE WHOLE UNIVERSE!! Is just a waiting room?

As opposed to what?

[ManuelF]

As opposed to what?[/quote]

As opposed to falling in love, raising a family, beating Assassins Creed 2, eating a whole pizza, living life, not just waiting to get into heaven, isn't it suppose to be the journey that matters not the destination? If the only thing we are here for is waiting to get into heaven, I would find it very difficult to get up in the morning and try to make something of myself.

[Jac3510]

When you are going to spend eternity at the destination, I'd say the destination is a lot more important than the journey. Put differently, the journey, compared the destination, is a heartbeat. To use your example, which is more important? Playing Assassins Creed 2, or sitting down in the couch to play it?

[ManuelF]

When you are going to spend eternity at the destination, I'd say the destination is a lot more important than the journey. Put differently, the journey, compared the destination, is a heartbeat. To use your example, which is more important? Playing Assassins Creed 2, or sitting down in the couch to play it?

It's all of it that's the point, even just standing and breathing is something better than just waiting, and if the destination is forever then why bother with the journey? Why would a GOD judge its most loved creation for eternity with what happens in a heartbeat?

[Jac3510]

Why would a GOD judge its most loved creation for eternity with what happens in a heartbeat?

Because we need to make the choice about whether or not to accept God or not. That was part of the original line you quoted, remember?

[Byblos]

As opposed to falling in love, raising a family, beating Assassins Creed 2, eating a whole pizza, living life, not just waiting to get into heaven, isn't it suppose to be the journey that matters not the destination? If the only thing we are here for is waiting to get into heaven, I would find it very difficult to get up in the morning and try to make something of myself.

And somehow you need to cancel the existence of God for you to do those things? Here's a shocker for you, most theists do those things as well. I would even venture to say we rather enjoy life a lot more because we have hope.

[ManuelF]

Why would a GOD judge its most loved creation for eternity with what happens in a heartbeat?

Because we need to make the choice about whether or not to accept God or not. That was part of the original line you quoted, remember?

But that's the problem, according to what you say we are only here for one thing, to choose or reject GOD, that's it! And that sucks because then everything else if for nothing, why cure cancer, why go to the moon, why invent cars, why find alternative fuel sources? Why do anything else in your life but choose GOD?

[ManuelF]

As opposed to falling in love, raising a family, beating Assassins Creed 2, eating a whole pizza, living life, not just waiting to get into heaven, isn't it suppose to be the journey that matters not the destination? If the only thing we are here for is waiting to get into heaven, I would find it very difficult to get up in the morning and try to make something of myself.

And somehow you need to cancel the existence of God for you to do those things? Here's a shocker for you, most theists do those things as well. I would even venture to say we rather enjoy life a lot more because we have hope.

I'm not cancelling the existence of GOD I just don't find it necessary, from what I've been reading you people make it sound like if you don's believe in GOD there's no way you're gonna be happy and have a full life, you say literally that GOD is the only reason to be alive and that is really scary for me

[Jac3510]

But that's the problem, according to what you say we are only here for one thing, to choose or reject GOD, that's it! And that sucks because then everything else if for nothing, why cure cancer, why go to the moon, why invent cars, why find alternative fuel sources? Why do anything else in your life but choose GOD?

What makes you think doing any of those things and choosing God are unrelated? Further, are you under the impression that everyone in "heaven" (or Hell, for that matter), will get the same treatment?

Once you have chosen God, you then have this verse to consider:

• For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. ~ 2 Cor. 5:10

Let me return the question to you:

If when you die, there is absolutely nothing, then what is the point of doing anything good or bad? Why be a Gandhi or not be a Stalin? What does it matter if you help or hurt people, if you are remembered as good or bad? Very shortly, all humans will cease to exist anyway, and in a few billion years, all life in all parts of the universe will cease. Nothing matters at all. So what's the point? Why fall in love, get married, have kids, and help little old ladies cross the street? You can certainly do that, but you are just killing time until there is no more time to kill. You mas as well be a womanizer and be as greedy as possible, who cares who you hurt. Why not? In the end, it all comes to the same anyway.

You say you don't see any reason to have God. Here's your reason. Without Him, nothing you do has any meaning whatsoever. If you are going to be an atheist, then at least be an honest atheist and admit everything is a waste of time (or be dishonest; it doesn't matter, now does it, since no one and nothing is going to hold you accountable . . . when you die, no one--especially not you--will care how honest or dishonest you were anyway).

[Byblos]

I'm not cancelling the existence of GOD I just don't find it necessary, from what I've been reading you people make it sound like if you don's believe in GOD there's no way you're gonna be happy and have a full life, you say literally that GOD is the only reason to be alive and that is really scary for me

Well, if God is in fact our creator, then He would be the reason we are alive, wouldn't he? What reason do you have to be alive? Who or what is your primary cause?

[ManuelF]

What makes you think doing any of those things and choosing God are unrelated? Further, are you under the impression that everyone in "heaven" (or Hell, for that matter), will get the same treatment?

Once you have chosen God, you then have this verse to consider:

• For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. ~ 2 Cor. 5:10

Let me return the question to you:

If when you die, there is absolutely nothing, then what is the point of doing anything good or bad? Why be a Gandhi or not be a Stalin? What does it matter if you help or hurt people, if you are remembered as good or bad? Very shortly, all humans will cease to exist anyway, and in a few billion years, all life in all parts of the universe will cease. Nothing matters at all. So what's the point? Why fall in love, get married, have kids, and help little old ladies cross the street? You can certainly do that, but you are just killing time until there is no more time to kill. You mas as well be a womanizer and be as greedy as possible, who cares who you hurt. Why not? In the end, it all comes to the same anyway.

You say you don't see any reason to have God. Here's your reason. Without Him, nothing you do has any meaning whatsoever. If you are going to be an atheist, then at least be an honest atheist and admit everything is a waste of time (or be dishonest; it doesn't matter, now does it, since no one and nothing is going to hold you accountable . . . when you die, no one--especially not you--will care how honest or dishonest you were anyway).[/quote]

That is a better answered that I thought I was gonna get, I thank you for it.
But I think that the whole thing revolves around the fact that it sounds as if you think that living doesn't have any merit. Why fall in love, just to fall in love, smile just for the fun of it, why do you need a purpose, be good just because, why the need for a reward when just living and experiencing life it's the reward. That's the thing that bothers me about the whole GOD thing.
And about the whole hurting people thing, it matters to each one, it's not like GOD stops bad thing from happening so at the end of the day bad things will happen whether or not GOD is around, but I bet you are going to say that if GOD wasn't around things would be worse right?

[ManuelF]

I'm not cancelling the existence of GOD I just don't find it necessary, from what I've been reading you people make it sound like if you don's believe in GOD there's no way you're gonna be happy and have a full life, you say literally that GOD is the only reason to be alive and that is really scary for me

Well, if God is in fact our creator, then He would be the reason we are alive, wouldn't he? What reason do you have to be alive? Who or what is your primary cause?

This may sound a little poetic but the reason for me to be alive is just to live, to experience life, to make mistakes and go to the beach, raise a family and have a puppy, I don't need an eternal life after dead because then what would have been the point of my real life? Why appreciate every minute of every day when at the end of the line I'm going to have forever to do anything, for me that fact that after death comes life forever just steals the meaning of the life we have now.

Sorry if sometimes I don't make alot of sense but english is not my language

[Jac3510]

That is a better answered that I thought I was gonna get, I thank you for it.

You're welcome. We do our best here.

But I think that the whole thing revolves around the fact that it sounds as if you think that living doesn't have any merit. Why fall in love, just to fall in love, smile just for the fun of it, why do you need a purpose, be good just because, why the need for a reward when just living and experiencing life it's the reward. That's the thing that bothers me about the whole GOD thing.

Living in and of itself doesn't have any merit. How much time have you spent in grief over the trillions upon trillions of cells that have died in the ages past? What makes human life so special?

You tell me why we should fall in love or smile if there is no purpose. Can you show me a difference in spending your life happy or sad if in the end, it all comes to naught? You may say it bothers you about God, but you must admit that if God exists and eternity is real, then what we do here DOES matter and it DOES have purpose.

Anyway, it seems to me that you are just artificially assigning value to something that has no value in and of itself. In other words, you are being intellectually dishonest. You tell me you don't see a reason to believe in God. I am giving you one. If you think life has value, you have to attribute that to be God to be logical. If you are going to be consistent in your reasoning, you have to admit that life--ALL LIFE--is meaningless if God doesn't exist. ALL OF IT, including that of those you love most. It's all a giant waste of time, assuming, of course, that time had any value so that it could actually be "wasted."

Shy of that admission, it isn't true that you don't see a reason to believe in God. You are just being disingenuous, no matter how polite and nice you may be about it . . .

And about the whole hurting people thing, it matters to each one, it's not like GOD stops bad thing from happening so at the end of the day bad things will happen whether or not GOD is around, but I bet you are going to say that if GOD wasn't around things would be worse right?

Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't. I don't know. I'm not God. But that's the key, isn't it. In order to answer that question, you would have to know everything. Do you? I don't. Therefore, I cannot say. Are you in possession of some knowledge that I am not that allows you to say what God should or should not have done in any given situation? Are you in possession of ALL the facts--both actual and possible? Do you KNOW that God did wrong in allowing certain evils in this world? Are you in possession of all the facts so that you can logically conclude that there are absolutely no compelling reasons for God to allow the world to exist in the way it does?

You see, I am not claiming omniscience. Your position requires you to, which is, I think, another reason I find it dishonest.

And yet, at the same time, I can't help but notice that you didn't answer my question. What reason could you possibly have for not hurting people? If God doesn't exist, you surely must recognize that it doesn't matter. You, and those you hurt, both directly and indirectly, will die, and no one will remember anything. So why not live it up now while you can?

And why be good at all? When you are gone, that feeling of satisfaction will mean absolutely nothing. All of your good deeds will be of no more or less value than Stalin's Gulag or the Inquisitor's racks. So why strive for that which is meaningless?

I have a reason, and it is based is something other than myself. It is a non-selfish reason. Can you give me a reason--a RATIONAL argument--as to why you should be "good" that isn't the merely self-centered idea of "Because I want to"?

[ManuelF]

I don't know how the whole quote thing works so I'm gonna do it my way:

You said: Living in and of itself doesn't have any merit.
I say: I think it's just wrong to think like that, how about being happy for yourself? It's selfish so what! Just be happy and try not to make people unhappy by doing it.

You said: What makes human life so special?.
I say: Nothing! Life is not that special, we make it special because of the things we do. It doesn't matter to the universe whether you live or die.

You said: You tell me why we should fall in love or smile if there is no purpose. Can you show me a difference in spending your life happy or sad if in the end, it all comes to naught? You may say it bothers you about God, but you must admit that if God exists and eternity is real, then what we do here DOES matter and it DOES have purpose.
I say: Just fall in love because it makes you happy and sometimes sad. The difference between spending your life happy or sad only matters to us, nothing more, if you don't care about the difference it's your problem. Again you keep saying that GOD makes everything matter, I don't see how.

Why is life meaningless if GOD doesn't exist? we give meaning to life not GOD.

You said: What reason could you possibly have for not hurting people? The simplest reason, It doesn't make me happy, I don't gain anything from hurting people.

You said: And why be good at all? When you are gone, that feeling of satisfaction will mean absolutely nothing. All of your good deeds will be of no more or less value than Stalin's Gulag or the Inquisitor's racks. So why strive for that which is meaningless?
I say: Who cares when I'm gone; it will mean something now that I'm alive! It will mean something to me, What do I care what it means when I'm not

You said: I have a reason, and it is based is something other than myself. It is a non-selfish reason. Can you give me a reason--a RATIONAL argument--as to why you should be "good" that isn't the merely self-centered idea of "Because I want to"?.
I say: Why be good? I could tell you a lot of thing that I know you would not consider since I've been reading all the other posts that relate to the same subject and I've read a lot of your answers. But by the sound of things you are telling me that you are good because you don't want to go to hell and your GOD says it, that's doesn't fly with me. I know this seems like I'm running from the argument but I've seen where that argument leads and I don't wanna go there because enough people have done it. You think only good is possible if GOD exist, I think it exist whether or not GOD does. And I don't think anything I or you say is gonna change that.