Atheisms moral deficiency and apologetics

[DannyM]

Let me know how that approach works out for you Danny.

What do you mean, Bart?

[touchingcloth]

I suggest you read your history. Atheism from the very beiginning came hand in hand with brutality. Fight it all you like, TC, I'm dealing with history, not romanticism.

I've heard this exact statement made about Christianity. I've heard it made about many things, many times over - pretty much replace the word "atheism" with the philosophy of your choice and it's a fair bet that someone has associated it with brutality, or unhappiness, etc. You don't have to credit the claim just because someone has made it.

[DannyM]

I suggest you read your history. Atheism from the very beiginning came hand in hand with brutality. Fight it all you like, TC, I'm dealing with history, not romanticism.

I've heard this exact statement made about Christianity. I've heard it made about many things, many times over - pretty much replace the word "atheism" with the philosophy of your choice and it's a fair bet that someone has associated it with brutality, or unhappiness, etc. You don't have to credit the claim just because someone has made it.

What on earth are you talking about? I really do strongly suggest you go and read about the French revolution. If you've heard the exact claim made about Christianity then any adequate reading of Christian history will show you how false such a claim is. Any adequate reading reading of atheism will also show you that my claim is bonefied. You're all hot air and noise, TC.

[touchingcloth]

What on earth are you talking about? I really do strongly suggest you go and read about the French revolution. If you've heard the exact claim made about Christianity then any adequate reading of Christian history will show you how false such a claim is.

I didn't mean I've heard the claim about the French Revolution made about Christianity, but the claim "Atheism from the very beiginning came hand in hand with brutality" made about many things other than atheism.

You're all hot air and noise, TC.

Thanks.

[DannyM]

What on earth are you talking about? I really do strongly suggest you go and read about the French revolution. If you've heard the exact claim made about Christianity then any adequate reading of Christian history will show you how false such a claim is.

I didn't mean I've heard the claim about the French Revolution made about Christianity, but the claim "Atheism from the very beiginning came hand in hand with brutality" made about many things other than atheism.

You're all hot air and noise, TC.

Thanks.

Not sure what happened to your quote, TC, but You're weocome. I'm not too sure what to say to you about what you have heard before about brutality coming hand in hand with ----, other than to say that you hearing something similar does nothing to negate the validity of my statement.

[DannyM]

What on earth are you talking about? I really do strongly suggest you go and read about the French revolution. If you've heard the exact claim made about Christianity then any adequate reading of Christian history will show you how false such a claim is.

I didn't mean I've heard the claim about the French Revolution made about Christianity, but the claim "Atheism from the very beiginning came hand in hand with brutality" made about many things other than atheism.

You're all hot air and noise, TC.

Thanks.

How did you do that? Did you just edit your post?

[touchingcloth]

Not sure what happened to your quote, TC, but You're weocome. I'm not too sure what to say to you about what you have heard before about brutality coming hand in hand with ----, other than to say that you hearing something similar does nothing to negate the validity of my statement.

In itself it does nothing to negate the validity - but hopefully you can see why I have a problem with your statement just as I suspect you'd have a problem (as do I) with people stating Christianity or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Judaism, or Islam or Sikhism or All Theism, or Philosophy X comes hand in hand with brutality.

(And yep, edited my post...had a [/quote] in the wrong place...)

[Canuckster1127]

Let me know how that approach works out for you Danny.

What do you mean, Bart?

DannyM, I mean that I've operated from that position in the past and found it ultimately unworkable to the degree that you're applying it.

Attempting to equate brutality with a particular worldview, as an exclusive one-to-one correlation in the manner I see you attempting to do so is an overstatement in my view. The French Revolution certainly did have elements of atheism at work in it. However, it's a gross oversimplification to point to it and then represent it in the manner you do.

The French Revolution was as much about the overthrow of a corrupt and oppressive system and the anti-religious sentiments that you refer to were very much tied to the coalition that had been forged in that society and time between the monarchy and the established institutional church of that time.

Causes of the French Revolution included the unwillingness of the French Monarchy to reform feudalism despite the fact that the surrounding nations were already beginning to do so. In some ways it also was a response to the American Revolution which France as a nation had supported and yet refused to see the legitimate grievances of its own people. There is also a great deal of common ground, not exclusively so, but to a large extent with the expression of many of the enlightenment philosophers that were instrumental in the American Revolution. In the context of French society however, there wasn't an ocean separating the oppressed from the oppressors. Further in the American Revolution you had a form of religion and morality (Christian to be sure) that did not universally or substantially tie itself to the oppressor government. In fact, although the Church of England was prevelant at the time of the American Revolution, it was one of many churches and you had roots in the puritans and pilgrims which were already in place that helped to lead to that rebellion. You had a huge debt run up by the French monarchy that in turn was upping the tax burden on the people and no sense of ownership and involvement of the system.

Making a general statement that the French Revolution is an example of atheistic philosophy at work, may have some validity, but it's grossly overstated and effectively loses the point by failing to recognize these other factors (and I've mentioned just a few) and also failing to recognize that governments under more theist understandings have had some pretty bloody and overwhelming incidents in history and if you're going to be consistent in your interpretting those instances then you have to equally conclude that Theism historically has not been a panacea to eliminate all oppression, all violence and all brutality and injustice.

Again, I see the common denominator in all of this as the nature of man, and perhaps you can make a case in terms of degrees, but attempting to make it to the degree I see many trying to do, isn't particularly consistent, in my opinion.

[DannyM]

Not sure what happened to your quote, TC, but You're weocome. I'm not too sure what to say to you about what you have heard before about brutality coming hand in hand with ----, other than to say that you hearing something similar does nothing to negate the validity of my statement.

In itself it does nothing to negate the validity - but hopefully you can see why I have a problem with your statement just as I suspect you'd have a problem (as do I) with people stating Christianity or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Judaism, or Islam or Sikhism or All Theism, or Philosophy X comes hand in hand with brutality.

(And yep, edited my post...had a

in the wrong place...)[/quote]

I'd understand you having a problem if I was trotting out some oft-repeated statement, as you are alluding. But I am giving you an honest reading of the brutality behind the French revolution. If somebody stated what I've stated, but about Christianity, I'd refute it in a heart beat. I'm not having a pop at you, TC, as an atheist; I'm saying that atheism's past is littered with carnage and brutality.

(How did you DO that, though?)

[zoegirl]

It's so hard to bring historical events into play because there *are* so many variables.

So here's a thought....we can look at many regimes in the past and say "it was an abuse of power" and in many cases, we can look toward the religion of that region and see that the people and that culture did not espouse that abuse.

But let's look at a hypothetical atheist regime in an atheist population....there is no validity to the idea of "abuse of power" because how would you establish that the display of power was, in fact, an abuse? What could you point to to say "you shouldn't be doing that?!" You might be looking at them in dismay because of their cruelty, but if they didn't share your view, how could you say their way isn't right? or wrong?


As Bart said, atheist worldview does lead to nihilism.

Danny are you asking about how to edit a post?

[touchingcloth]

Making a general statement that the French Revolution is an example of atheistic philosophy at work, may have some validity, but it's grossly overstated and effectively loses the point by failing to recognize these other factors (and I've mentioned just a few) and also failing to recognize that governments under more theist understandings have had some pretty bloody and overwhelming incidents in history and if you're going to be consistent in your interpretting those instances then you have to equally conclude that Theism historically has not been a panacea to eliminate all oppression, all violence and all brutality and injustice.

Again, I see the common denominator in all of this as the nature of man, and perhaps you can make a case in terms of degrees, but attempting to make it to the degree I see many trying to do, isn't particularly consistent, in my opinion.

Thanks Canuckster - that's a much more eloquent way of putting what I've been struggling to say

[DannyM]

Let me know how that approach works out for you Danny.

What do you mean, Bart?

DannyM, I mean that I've operated from that position in the past and found it ultimately unworkable to the degree that you're applying it.

Attempting to equate brutality with a particular worldview, as an exclusive one-to-one correlation in the manner I see you attempting to do so is an overstatement in my view. The French Revolution certainly did have elements of atheism at work in it. However, it's a gross oversimplification to point to it and then represent it in the manner you do.

The French Revolution was as much about the overthrow of a corrupt and oppressive system and the anti-religious sentiments that you refer to were very much tied to the coalition that had been forged in that society and time between the monarchy and the established institutional church of that time.

Causes of the French Revolution included the unwillingness of the French Monarchy to reform feudalism despite the fact that the surrounding nations were already beginning to do so. In some ways it also was a response to the American Revolution which France as a nation had supported and yet refused to see the legitimate grievances of its own people. There is also a great deal of common ground, not exclusively so, but to a large extent with the expression of many of the enlightenment philosophers that were instrumental in the American Revolution. In the context of French society however, there wasn't an ocean separating the oppressed from the oppressors. Further in the American Revolution you had a form of religion and morality (Christian to be sure) that did not universally or substantially tie itself to the oppressor government. In fact, although the Church of England was prevelant at the time of the American Revolution, it was one of many churches and you had roots in the puritans and pilgrims which were already in place that helped to lead to that rebellion. You had a huge debt run up by the French monarchy that in turn was upping the tax burden on the people and no sense of ownership and involvement of the system.

Making a general statement that the French Revolution is an example of atheistic philosophy at work, may have some validity, but it's grossly overstated and effectively loses the point by failing to recognize these other factors (and I've mentioned just a few) and also failing to recognize that governments under more theist understandings have had some pretty bloody and overwhelming incidents in history and if you're going to be consistent in your interpretting those instances then you have to equally conclude that Theism historically has not been a panacea to eliminate all oppression, all violence and all brutality and injustice.

Again, I see the common denominator in all of this as the nature of man, and perhaps you can make a case in terms of degrees, but attempting to make it to the degree I see many trying to do, isn't particularly consistent, in my opinion.

Bart,

I know you are cautious to apportion blame so absolutely, but this doesn't necessarily mean I am being swivel-eyed and fanatic with regards my opinion. I have enough good literature on the FR and I will, when I'm off my shift and home in the morning - your evening tonight, I think - I will be supporting my assertions in full. I agree with your point about man being inherently capable of evil, but my point is purely that atheism was founded as a protest and has no moral compass to fall back upon- unless it borrows from the established sources of morality. But, I have to pip pip away now, so God bless.

Dan

[touchingcloth]

(How did you DO that, though?)

How did I edit my quote, or is there something strange appearing? All looks normal from my PC!

[DannyM]

Danny are you asking about how to edit a post?

Yes please Zoe...

[DannyM]

(How did you DO that, though?)

How did I edit my quote, or is there something strange appearing? All looks normal from my PC!

No, I'm asking how you edit your own post. But I think Zoe is about to tell me. it freaked me out when your all-over-the-place post suddenly changed to being perfect. Apoart from the content