I don't get it...

[Gman]

Ever since I was a child I was always fascinated with the mystery of life... Always fascinated with the existence of God. I looked at my world and I thought, man, where did all this beauty come from? I looked at my body and I saw how wonderfully we are made.

I have no clue how anyone could go through this life and never question these basic things... Are they going to wait on their death bed and then have an epiphany that there is a possibility of a God?

Seems really crazy to me.. Just nutty.. Everyone chasing after UFO's, atheism, but let's not look at the existence of God. Let's not go there.. Why? There is no reason for this nonsense. And if they found out how much God loves them, they would flock to Him in a second. But no.. We wouldn't want to go there.

It's got to be pride... That is probably the only thing I can see.

[jlay]

1 John 2:15-17 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

I would disagree that, 'if they found out how much God loves them, they would flock to Him in a second.'
The only way one can find out that God loves them is to find out something about the character of God. And that reveals that our God is a consuming fire. (Heb. 12:29) The love (grace) of God makes no sense until one sees themselves in need of such grace. And so that means they must face themselves and the light of God which shines into the darkest parts of our soul. They must see the just wrath of God to reach the love of God. My grandfather died of cancer. During the early stages, before he was diagnosed, he refused to go to the doctor. Even though it was evident something was wrong, he refused to go to the doctor. Time went by, and he became extremely ill, and the truth was revealed. Why then did he avoid going to the doctor early on. An early diagnosis could have saved his life. The reality is that often we would rather live in ignorance than face the truth. And by the time we face the truth it is too late. People don't really have a problem with the love of God. It is the wrath, and judgment. I'm amazed at how many people who don't believe in God, hate Him so much.

Because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (Hebrews 11:6)

[cslewislover]

When I was a child, I knew there was a God or at least Something. I didn't know what it was for quite a while, though. Then, as a young adult, I gave up on God for a couple of reasons. One, seemingly intellectual reasons, and two, a lack of intervention in my life on His part (but He eventually DID intervene). I can relate to people readily who have these reasons for rejecting God, but only to a point. For those who never really felt there was a God, from their youth, and who strive to discredit the idea of God, or God Himself, I cannot relate to those people and I can't imagine what that would feel like inside. The bible says there are people destined for Hell, and though we can't judge and need to tell the Good News to everyone, I wonder about the last category of people I talk of. It seems like it would be a very small number of people, though - those who have never felt inside themselves that there is a God.

[jlay]

The bible says there are people destined for Hell,

Wouldn't that be all of humanity? If God had not planted a cross in the middle of our world, we'd all be destined for Hell whether we believed a god existed or not. The cross is the greatest intervention in the history of mankind. And it is for whoever will call upon the name of the Lord. Romans 10:13 ; Acts 2:21

It seems like it would be a very small number of people, though - those who have never felt inside themselves that there is a God.

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1: 18-20

[cslewislover]

The bible says there are people destined for Hell,

Wouldn't that be all of humanity? If God had not planted a cross in the middle of our world, we'd all be destined for Hell whether we believed a god existed or not. The cross is the greatest intervention in the history of mankind. And it is for whoever will call upon the name of the Lord. Romans 10:13 ; Acts 2:21

Of course, but there's more to it than that. "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory . . . " (Romans 9:21-23a). Related to this (Ephesians 1:4): "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." I do not take the "us" in these passages to mean all of humanity. I believe people have free will to choose their destination, but God foreknows their decision and calls those He foreknows. It's something that we cannot fully comprehend in our physical state of being here on earth.

[jlay]

Seems like many of my discussions (not just here at EFGFS) seem to be leading to this topic. I guess this is a Calvanism vs. Armenianism thing.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."

I might have a different view of these verses, as it would appear you are interpreting it from a Calvinistic perspective. One of my biggest challenges as of late is to try and read the text without letting any predispositions regarding these camps. Talk about hard to do. I would say I have been equally influenced by C and A. If I approach Romans 9 with this subjective thought,then could I read this into the verses? "I heard this once. Is your theology shaping your view of the scriptures, or are the scriptures shaping your theology." It's been a tough road.

So, are there people who are hopeless? People who can not believe? Not because they refuse to believe, but because God has ordained that they can not and will not believe?

[BavarianWheels]

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This is my stance:
All are pre-destined for glory, however all will not accept. Some will never have the chance -- I leave their souls in His hands to do as He will. I make no assumptions here other than to humanly presume that His Word is correct that no one may come unless through Christ.

I don't believe that God formed/forms any human SPECIFICALLY to suffer and/or die to teach a lesson.

I believe the KJV version of Romans 9:21-23 brings to light a vague reference to God's longsuffering with the vessels of wrath. This speaks to me that even though He knows their choice(s), He may wait and wait, but ultimately realizes their end and must use them to encourage or teach His sheep around this person to nudge their choice.
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[Gman]

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This is my stance:
All are pre-destined for glory, however all will not accept. Some will never have the chance -- I leave their souls in His hands to do as He will. I make no assumptions here other than to humanly presume that His Word is correct that no one may come unless through Christ.

I don't believe that God formed/forms any human SPECIFICALLY to suffer and/or die to teach a lesson.

I believe the KJV version of Romans 9:21-23 brings to light a vague reference to God's longsuffering with the vessels of wrath. This speaks to me that even though He knows their choice(s), He may wait and wait, but ultimately realizes their end and must use them to encourage or teach His sheep around this person to nudge their choice.
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I think about this too... There is so much confusion if this world. It's very hard to see how God will judge all of this. I just don't know, however, if I would take a chance on this view.

After all, we are talking about the future of our very souls..

[Gman]

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I don't believe that God formed/forms any human SPECIFICALLY to suffer and/or die to teach a lesson.

Not necessarily teach us a lesson but give us a choice..

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I find it amusing that neither of the atheists who post on these forums have deigned to post on this thread. Ever wonder why?

It's got to be pride... That is probably the only thing I can see.

That's one reason. Atheists see themselves as intellectually superior to Christians. Atheists are also confused when they come across intelligent Christians and don't know what to make of them.

I'm amazed at how many people who don't believe in God, hate Him so much.

That's a big reason. Atheists hate God, hate the idea of a supreme being and love to belittle those who believe in God. (They see themselves as intellectually superior, remember?)

I believe people have free will to choose their destination.

That's another reason. Atheists believe that teaching a child about God is akin to binding his intellect, to preventing a child from reaching his full potential.

Other reasons you may not have thought of:

-God is a lie. A responsable person does not perpetuate a lie.
-Belief in God is responsible for the mutual alienation of nations.
-Belief in God is responsible for the exploitation of whole groups of people by other groups.
-God is the expression of a neurotic frustration.
-The idea of a supreme being involves the negation of human reason.
-God is a superstition: hocus-pocus rituals, pseudomystical foolishness follows in His footsteps.

I could go on...

FL

[Gman]

That's a big reason. Atheists hate God, hate the idea of a supreme being and love to belittle those who believe in God. (They see themselves as intellectually superior, remember?)

Oh yeah.. I forgot that one.