The mystery of sin and God the Benevolent

[Byblos]

If there is free will in Heaven and no evil, then there is no reason to have any choice which we consider evil. If giving us free will was so important to God, then beings in Heaven must have free will. Therfore, God could have made this world just like Heaven, where he did not allow such a thing as sin or evil, but allows free will. In this universe, evil is a choice. It did not have to be if God created Heaven this way.
Oddly enough, it could be arguied that there is no such thing at all as free will. I read some data recently from some studies that showed that the decisions to act occured before we are conscious of them. Very weird!

Why would you say there's no free will in heaven? How did Satan rebel?

What I'm asking you though is if you believe God is love, then how can you define what love is without defining what the total lack of love is as well?

[jlay]

A lot needs to be defined.

Free will, choice, evil.

God most assuredly knew A&E's choice, as Jesus was crucified from the foundations of the Earth. God is not playing this thing by ear.

Let us also keep in mind....

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband." (Rev. 21:1-2)

The new heaven and earth are prepared for God and his bride. They are incorruptible, as God Himself has redeemed this bride through Christ. We will not be as A&E in the Garden.
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son." Romans 8:29
"we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye . . . and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
"Who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Phil. 3:21)
"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

How does that translate to free will? Don't know, and don't care. I would gladly surrender my free will, to live in His presence without temptation and without sin, and without choice.
Something happens at salvation? John 5:24 Even though we are in this corrupted body, we inherit eternal LIFE. An inheritance is nothing you earn. We are being given a LIFE by God. What kind of life? The verses above answer this question.

[rare96ws6]

If there is free will in Heaven and no evil, then there is no reason to have any choice which we consider evil. If giving us free will was so important to God, then beings in Heaven must have free will. Therfore, God could have made this world just like Heaven, where he did not allow such a thing as sin or evil, but allows free will. In this universe, evil is a choice. It did not have to be if God created Heaven this way.
Oddly enough, it could be arguied that there is no such thing at all as free will. I read some data recently from some studies that showed that the decisions to act occured before we are conscious of them. Very weird!

Why would you say there's no free will in heaven? How did Satan rebel?

What I'm asking you though is if you believe God is love, then how can you define what love is without defining what the total lack of love is as well?

I did not say there was no free will in Heaven. God hates sin, so therfore he can not be around it, right? There can not be evil in Heaven and yet there is free will. Therefore, God could have made this universe that we live in full of free will, but yet lacking evil.
You asked about Satan in Haven. Maybe you can answer that one for us. If there was evil and sin done in Heaven by Satan, that contradicts the idea that God can't stand to look at sin. He allowed Satan do evil in Heaven if he cast him out for it.

[rare96ws6]

A lot needs to be defined.

Free will, choice, evil.

God most assuredly knew A&E's choice, as Jesus was crucified from the foundations of the Earth. God is not playing this thing by ear.

Let us also keep in mind....

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband." (Rev. 21:1-2)

The new heaven and earth are prepared for God and his bride. They are incorruptible, as God Himself has redeemed this bride through Christ. We will not be as A&E in the Garden.
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son." Romans 8:29
"we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye . . . and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
"Who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Phil. 3:21)
"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

How does that translate to free will? Don't know, and don't care. I would gladly surrender my free will, to live in His presence without temptation and without sin, and without choice.
Something happens at salvation? John 5:24 Even though we are in this corrupted body, we inherit eternal LIFE. An inheritance is nothing you earn. We are being given a LIFE by God. What kind of life? The verses above answer this question.

I wish we had been given this choice of free will or to be with God, before the "test" of this earthy life.

[Byblos]

I did not say there was no free will in Heaven. God hates sin, so therfore he can not be around it, right? There can not be evil in Heaven and yet there is free will. Therefore, God could have made this universe that we live in full of free will, but yet lacking evil.

God could have done anything he liked, including not creating a physical world at all, just create us as angels and be done with it. And yes, we could still have free will the same way Satan did but it still doesn't mean God created evil (he allowed it, yes, but didn't create it). Evil is not a thing to be created, it is a privation, a lack of something, in this case the lack of pure love, i.e. the essence of what God is.

You asked about Satan in Haven. Maybe you can answer that one for us. If there was evil and sin done in Heaven by Satan, that contradicts the idea that God can't stand to look at sin. He allowed Satan do evil in Heaven if he cast him out for it.

The moment Satan decided to use his free will to rebel, he was cast out so there was no evil in heaven. If you're asking if God foreknew of Satan's rebellion, even before Satan's creation, the answer is yes. If you're asking if God allowed Satan's rebellion, the answer is yes. If you're asking if God created evil (created Satan for the express purpose of introducing evil) the answer is no. That is my take on it.

[rare96ws6]

I have a tough time with evil. I agree with you that what we call evil is the lack of love(God). You say that evil is not something to be created, so in other words, it is like cold; the absence of heat. I agree, though allolwing it to happen
when he could have done something about it still disturbes me. He could have made a universe without it. An all powerful
God could have allowed free will with the absence of evil, but he did not.
If God knew satan would rebel, but you don't think God used satan to introduce evil, then why do you think he even created Satan, or a universe in which there is evil? It is a frustrating question to me and there does not seem to be an easy anwer. Athiets have a simple answers to this question, but they are not answers I subscribe to.

[Byblos]

I have a tough time with evil. I agree with you that what we call evil is the lack of love(God). You say that evil is not something to be created, so in other words, it is like cold; the absence of heat. I agree, though allolwing it to happen
when he could have done something about it still disturbes me. He could have made a universe without it. An all powerful
God could have allowed free will with the absence of evil, but he did not.
If God knew satan would rebel, but you don't think God used satan to introduce evil, then why do you think he even created Satan, or a universe in which there is evil? It is a frustrating question to me and there does not seem to be an easy anwer. Athiets have a simple answers to this question, but they are not answers I subscribe to.

I didn't say God didn't USE Satan, of course he did. And you're absolutely right, these are not easy topics. Theologians and philosophers from the dawn of civilization have been wrestling with such questions; there's nothing simple about them or their answers.

[jlay]

I wish we had been given this choice of free will or to be with God, before the "test" of this earthy life.

That is impossible. How can you choose if you never were? How could you be redeemed to be with God for ever, if you had never been.

Again when looking at these issues we have to consider the bigger picture.
God in his soverignty and omniscience certainly was fully aware of the realites of evil, and the ruination it would cause for mankind.
God's plan has always been redemption. If Christ is eternal (and I beleive He is, and the bible teaches such) then He has always been redeemer. Always.

Again we need to define evil. Is evil the absence of good? I would say no. It is acting counter to what is good, or the will of God. And yes, God can use those evil things. 'And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.' Romans 8:28

In more than one place the bible teaches us to hate evil. 'The fear of the LORD is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.' Proverbs 8:13
Is it possible that evil has always been a possibility. Yes. Since God who is good has always been, could not evil be an uncreated possibility?

This world is not the end of the plan. Redemption is the plan. That is why the verses I provided earlier are so important. What are we being redeemed from? Evil. Our own evil. What are we being redeemed for? With the purpose to be perfect united with God IN Christ Jesus. We can not be free from the possibility of evil unless we are redeemed from it. That was and is always the plan.

[rare96ws6]

Nothing is impossible for God. He could have given us the free will to chose this life in which to
decide to serve him or not or given us a choice to be with him in Heaven. There must be an
important reason why he did not give us this choice.

[jlay]

Sure. Everything God is and does is in keeping with His nature and chacracter.
It is a very simple thing to say, 'nothing is impossible with God.'
And that particular scripture reference (Matt 19:26) doesn't contextually apply to what we are talking about. You see 'things' are just that. Things. They are. A choice can only be made by a living human thing. A non thing is "NOTHING." It is not. It is a logical absurdity. You did not preexist. There is no logical merit to asking why a nothing can chose.
God has a plan, a purpose and a reason. And He does reveal that in scripture. Certainly not everything, but certain things. And they all comply with who He is.

[chance]

I think perhaps you, as well as many others, have created God in our image.

God is all powerful compared to us, but is not 'all powerful' in the way we think he is.

As an aside - would you have a child if you knew it would not be 'perfect' by your standards or would you choose not to have said child? If not for Adam and Eve, if you will, neither you nor I would even exist and would have no hope of Heaven. We exist, despite all the pain of this world, and can feel/love/etc because we were graced with existence.

If I had a time machine I might go back in my life and make better choices for me - but then the kids who came into existence because of me and my actions might not exist. Sure they have bad days where they cry, days which hurt them, but they have many more filled with joy, and more importantly they exist to have such feelings.

I brought kids into this imperfect world knowing they would have some days they would suffer, some days where they ask 'why do I even exist?' - and yet they have many more days where they hold their own kids, smile, laugh, and enjoy the fruits of this world.

We were given life - what we do with it is up to us. And I can tell you as a father I KNEW my kids would make mistakes, would have pain. But I, like their mothers, brought them here anyway to an imperfect world.

I am glad God did not abort us and let us have this life - even though at times it is painful.