Morals without god/the bible

[Manfer84]

Who can tell? You would certainly find many Christians thinking to themselves, What's the point then? Whether that would lead to lawlessness one can only guess. Then you might have agnostics and atheists who had lived good lives "just in case" God existed turning to lawlessness with the confirmation of God's nonexistence. Who knows... What do you think?

Speaking as an atheist (sort of, since I don't think that much if God exist or not, I just don't care either way) I wouldn't turn lawless, and why would any normal atheist turn lawless? Since they don't seem to think that being a person that abides by the law depends on God. ( I think this last sentence sounds weird, but hope you get the meaning)

[DannyM]

Who can tell? You would certainly find many Christians thinking to themselves, What's the point then? Whether that would lead to lawlessness one can only guess. Then you might have agnostics and atheists who had lived good lives "just in case" God existed turning to lawlessness with the confirmation of God's nonexistence. Who knows... What do you think?

Speaking as an atheist (sort of, since I don't think that much if God exist or not, I just don't care either way) I wouldn't turn lawless, and why would any normal atheist turn lawless? Since they don't seem to think that being a person that abides by the law depends on God. ( I think this last sentence sounds weird, but hope you get the meaning)

You sound agnostic to me, Manfer. Who knows what effect a 'revelation' of God's nonexistence would do to some people? The world might carry on as it is or it might lead to catastrophe- as I say, who knows?

I get your meaning, but I was referring to those who might refrain from lawlessness "just in case" God exists- who knows how they might in turn react? I think this line of thought is all a bit nonsensical as it is full on speculation based on a complete improbability. So I don't really have much to say other than Who knows?

[Manfer84]

You are totally right, it's full of speculations and every man would probably answer differently, I just wanted to get a couple of opinions that's all.

And with the agnostic thing, I thought it for a while but every day I think more and more that there's just nothing out there, apart from any evidence there might be It's just a felling I get, so who knows if I'm right or not.

[DannyM]

You are totally right, it's full of speculations and every man would probably answer differently, I just wanted to get a couple of opinions that's all.

And with the agnostic thing, I thought it for a while but every day I think more and more that there's just nothing out there, apart from any evidence there might be It's just a felling I get, so who knows if I'm right or not.

Have you read the New Testament? If not I would recommend you read it if you're interested and open to it.

[Manfer84]

You are totally right, it's full of speculations and every man would probably answer differently, I just wanted to get a couple of opinions that's all.

And with the agnostic thing, I thought it for a while but every day I think more and more that there's just nothing out there, apart from any evidence there might be It's just a felling I get, so who knows if I'm right or not.

Have you read the New Testament? If not I would recommend you read it if you're interested and open to it.

I've read the bible a lot, in my country they teach Christianity at almost every school, and I was raised in a Christian home, my parents believe but not like crazy believers, just normal hahaha .
I've done my communion and confirmation (I don't know if that is the correct name of the sacrament but is the closest translation from Spanish).

It's just that, don't get me wrong, but religion doesn't fly with me, I don't mean this in any derogatory way, I respect a lot the people that have faith, but for me religion is for the things that science can't explain. So that's why believing in God and all that doesn't play at all in my life and way of living it.

[B. W.]

...Speaking as an atheist (sort of, since I don't think that much if God exist or not, I just don't care either way) I wouldn't turn lawless, and why would any normal atheist turn lawless? Since they don't seem to think that being a person that abides by the law depends on God. ( I think this last sentence sounds weird, but hope you get the meaning)

So you are not lawless Manfer84?

Have you ever lied? Told an untruth? Envied? Ever done anything bad?

How can you claim you are not lawless?

For that matter, why would God want to live next door to you when you would corrupt heaven with such works proven by how you lived your life here on earth?

You need Christ as does everyone else — that choice is yours. Make the right one.
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[Manfer84]

Well if your are calling me lawless because I lied to my friend about liking his girlfriend, when she was a total bi….., and envy my neighbor for having a Mercedes when I have a Volkswagen, hell I'm the most lawless guy ever!
By the way you make it sound everybody is lawless, so I think you are misreading the idea I put out, no offense intended.

Why would I corrupt heaven with my way of life? Can you corrupt heaven? Does heaven even exist? (very debatable)
Do you even know how I live? I think that within the parameters of my society and a really decent guy.

And about everyone needing Jesus, well I think that is very debatable.

[jlay]

Speaking as an atheist (sort of, since I don't think that much if God exist or not, I just don't care either way) I wouldn't turn lawless, and why would any normal atheist turn lawless? Since they don't seem to think that being a person that abides by the law depends on God. ( I think this last sentence sounds weird, but hope you get the meaning)

Interesting. This is a serious question.
What brings you to this site?
If you "don't care" then why post and dialog here? There are millions of websites with things I just don't care about. Do you know how I demonstrate my 'not caring?' I don't go to those websites. I hope you do care, and that your presence here is an indication of what your heart is really speaking to you.

Why would I corrupt heaven with my way of life? Can you corrupt heaven? Does heaven even exist?

Let's assume for this discussion that heaven exist. Let us also assume that the Bible explains heaven, and the God who lives there. Not saying you have to believe it. let's just assume it to help you understand 'why?'

If it exist, what is the state of heaven?
Have you ever been into a medical lab? Very sanitary. In fact, employees coming in and out have to be sanitized upon entrance. Why? Because there are invisible particles on our bodies that can contaminate the whole affair. Now, you don't worry much about these same contaminates in your own home. When you come home, you don't sanitize yourself. Why? You have different standards in your home than the standards of the lab. You may think you are a clean person. You might have zero concern for the lab and its conditions. But what does that matter, when you desire to get into the lab. Whose standards matter when you are seeking entrance into the lab? The owners of the lab, of course. What is acceptable and clean in your own world, is deadly and contaminated in another.

Why are there standards? Because the owner of heaven has standards. You many not understand his standards or even care. You might not see your lying, coveting and such as any big deal. But the owner of heaven sees them as something much more serious. His standards are infinately higher than your own.

If you came to my house to take my daughter on a date, there is a chance our standards of morality are not going to be the same. Does it matter that you don't agree with me? It is my standard that determines whether I will welcome you into my house, or forbid you from seeing my daughter. If each of us being equals, can have dramatic differences in our moral standard, then how much more the creator and God of the universe?
If the Bible accurately portrays the character and nature of God, then how do His standards compare? Let me give just one scripture for reference. Proverbs 6:17 says that God "detest lying lips." In fact they are considered an "abomination," to Him. That means they are viewed as wicked, wretched evil.

Why? Because of who God is. He is Holy. He is pure. He is truth. It is HIs character.
Can you stare at the sun for one minute with your eyes unguarded? What will happen?
Why is the sun being so unfair to you. It isn't. It is the nature of the sun. It is a raging fire of energy. It is what it is. If you stare into it, you will be blinded. God is a raging fire of Holiness and truth. I know you are not foolish enough to stare into the sun in such a way. Yet, somehow you think that God can just dumb down who he is, as if the sun had a light switch on the side that you could just flick to the 'off' position.

Now, you may choose to not care, or believe in God, or trust what the bible says in regards to such. But you can no longer say you don't understand why you would corrupt heaven. According to the bible, I have explained why. Hope that helps.

Let me make a HUGE point. Religion is NOT the answer. Religion doesn NOT FLY with God either. This is not about religion. Religion does not get you to heaven. Going through a program is not what makes you Christian. If you have read the bible, you will understand that the sacraments do not save you. Religion is the opiate of the masses. Religion has done more harm to God's word and truth, than any other thing in history. The NT does not appeal to religion to make you fit for heaven. There is a way to be made fit for heaven. And it is the biggest no brainer in the history of the universe. The bible calls it 'Grace.' Hope you 'care' and stick around.

[Byblos]

Me like this ^ very much. Great post J.

[Manfer84]

Thanks for that post, it was very thorough and interesting, and if I'm allow to say it felt very passionate.

I stumble upon this site while I was just browsing though the net and found it and it turned out to be quite interesting. Not because I was looking to be converted or born again or whatever it is the term you use, just because it arouse my curiosity, to see how other people think.
When I started reading the comments some questions came into my mind and I thought this was the right place to ask them. I don't think there's anything wrong about that. Again questions out of curiosity not looking to be converted.

As you have said, I also think that if heaven exist it does as kind of private “club”, you either get in and follow the “owners” rules or you don't get in. That simple. So I wouldn't corrupt heaven because as you put it I wouldn't even be able to get there.
So that's why I don't get how you can “corrupt heaven” because if someone was in the capacity of doing such a feat they wouldn't be able to get in in the first place. Just a thought

And for the record I care to stick around this site because it seems that you can find a lot of really intelligent people to whom you can have some real conversations about topics that in other places people just don't want to talk about.
So I'm probably gonna keep posting every time I have some questions, for the sake of curiosity, and if someone cares to answer that's cool

As a side note: what did you study Jlay? What is your carrier? Or mayor is it?? I'm not sure what the right term is. Again this question is just to satisfy mi curiosity don't feel obliged to answer

Thanks!

[jlay]

I'm a minister who is a car salesman, who has a degree in Journalism. I've worked for Mercedes-Benz for twelve years.

But my real passion is children's ministry, and have been blessed to serve in several different capacities as a bible teacher and worship leader for kids for almost nine years.

As you have said, I also think that if heaven exist it does as kind of private “club”, you either get in and follow the “owners” rules or you don't get in. That simple. So I wouldn't corrupt heaven because as you put it I wouldn't even be able to get there.
So that's why I don't get how you can “corrupt heaven” because if someone was in the capacity of doing such a feat they wouldn't be able to get in in the first place.

Using the lab analogy again. If you can be decontaminated, you can get in. God, in His rich mercy has made a way to irradicate the disease of sin. However, many people do not know they are sick. Why? Well if you compare yourself to me, or say Hitler, then you are going to come to the conclusion that, "I'm no worse than anyone else, and I'm better than some." So, if that is our basis for evaluating ourselves, then we are going to have a hard time seeing our need of a cure.
Imagine if you walked into a doctor for the 1st time, and he said, "Hey what I've got in this needle will cure you." Keep in mind, he hasn't even asked you a question or ran a test. You'd be like, 'get away from me you quack.' The problem is you don't know you are sick. Why would you let someone stick a needle into you, when you think you are perfectly well. Now, what if the doctor drew blood, examined you, and ran tests. Then he comes in, and says, "you have a serious condition. Our test have confirmed it, and here are the signs. This condition is fatal." No question the doctor would have your undivided attention, as fear began to well up inside you. Is the doctor being mean? No, he is being a good doctor to tell you the truth. The doctor then says, " the good news is we have a cure. It's in this needle. But we can't force you to take it. Do you want the cure?"

At this point the doctor has made his case. You have taken in and processed the info, and now you have a choice to make. Are you going to place your faith in the hands of the physician, or not?

The reason B.W. brings up lawlessness is very key. I'm no different than you. I don't want to see my lies as wicked abominations before God. But if they are, and God's measure of goodness is such, then I do have a problem. The Law of God is the needle that prepares the way for the cure of the Gospel. The cure, inside the needle, will never be embraced until you see why you are in desperate need of it. The Law reveals just how sinful we really are. Our conscience confirms this. You mentioned lying to someone earlier. If you are like me, this isnt' the only lie or deceit in your life. You know lying is wrong. Don't you? Truth is, I have forgotten most of the lies I have told. What do you call people who tell lies?
Liars. If we are honest with ourselves we will admit that we are liars. We've already talked about how God views lying. Imagine the most heinous crime you've ever heard of. This might give you some perspective of how God sees lying. Why? Because of how good He is. Now wouldn't it be amazing if this holy God cared enough about you to make a way to decontaminate you, and irradicate all your lies?

Let me ask you this? If God is real, and the Bible is true, would you want to know it?
If you were sick, would you want the cure?

[Manfer84]

I thought you were a minister because of the way you write. And I think is pretty cool you teach the kids in your community.

Don't take this the wrong way but if the God you are describing turns out to be real, I wouldn't know what to do because he doesn't sound like someone I would like.

But I guess that if everything you say turns out to be true then of course I would turn into the person you describe as being good, I would have to because if not I would be screwed. (sorry if that word is inappropriate for this forum, is it?)

[zoegirl]

That God is the one who loves enough to dies for you to have a relationship with him. Why would you think He isn't someone you would like?

[Manfer84]

That God is the one who loves enough to dies for you to have a relationship with him. Why would you think He isn't someone you would like?

I'm not saying he doesn't have some points in his favor, but the sort of stuff that Jlay talks about, the once you lie you are a liar and that's it for you, that sort of things I don't like.
Let me put like this, when I was a kid a teacher gave me the only description of God I could reconcile myself with, I don't care about it know since I don't believe in him, but I still like it.
He said that God didn't care whether you were catholic, Christian, Muslim or whatever, if you believe in him or not, if you did a couple of bad thing in your life, he only cares that at the end of the line you were a good person and treated your fellow man with respect and honesty. That's it, simple, like a superbeing would behave not focusing in the little mistakes one man could have made during his life, but on the overall of it.
What do you think about that idea?? doesn't seem bad to me. I really liked it when I was a kid.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Gracias, Manfer! ...gracias por escribir el nombre de Dios con G en inglés. Se parece que usted es sabio. Suerte con su busqueda.

FL