sabbath keeping

[Fitzlight]

Non one can keep the commandments so we can not be saved by trying to keep them. That is not the point. Jesus kept the commandments perfectly for us so that while we try to keep them and fail we have forgiveness through Him who was able to keep them. We do not strive to keep the commandments so as to be saved because if we did then none could be saved. No we strive to keep God's Holy Commandments because we Love God and desire to obey Him in all things and because we know that His laws are just and good and we know that if we could keep them all things would good and perfect. Striving to keep God's Holy Commandments is what our works are. Now works does not and can not save you but it is your works that determines your reward. Rmember we are told that our works would be tried by fire and that if our works are completely burnt up that we ourselves would be saved but as though by fire. We are also told that faith without works is dead. We are saved by grace not by works, but without works then there is no faith and without faith then there is no grace. So by refusing to even try to keep God's Holy Laws you make null and void faith and thereby you make null and void grace. So those of you that wish and have no desire to try to obey God and His Holy commandments are free to do so as it is you that has to give an answer to Jesus as to why you considered His laws worthless and why you considered His Holy Mark to be something evil so that it needs to be rejected and replaced with a commandment of men and I and all others who desire to obey God in all things will be there to bare witness against you though we would rather praise you. We have made our choice and it is you who must make your own choice. I pray that you will be wise and study God's Holy Word seeking His knowledge. His truth and His understanding concerning these things.

[B. W.]

Were any of you aware of the eighth day Sabbath?

Lev 23:39, “Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest.”

NASB, ESV and other text translates Sabbath with Rest but it is a word used for Sabbath (shabbâthôn) which is a Sabbath. NKJV has it translated more accurately as 'sabbath-rest'

It is important why a Sabbath rest was declared for the eighth day in light of Jesus, the resurrection, as well as the wedding feast of the lamb soon to come after the final resurrection.

In the light of this, the eighth day Sabbath commemorates Christ the first fruit (harvest) of the resurrection and a Christians waiting for the day of the wedding feast (This the Bible teaches this very plainly). It is very important to understand about why the eighth day Sabbath is important to keep if you think all the law must be kept literally - Read the whole chapter. The Sabbath day rest and feast days all pointed to certain things Christ would do and literally fulfill.

It is very important to understand that the eighth day Sabbath is to be kept as well. Read the whole chapter. Next for our seventh day Sabbatarians - Do you live in booths for a certain period of days once a year? Or was the law given as a foreshadow of things to come pointing out aspects of Christ's work in fulfilling the law? Did Jesus fulfill the all the law or not? Is He now our rest - our sabbath?

Read Below:

Heb 10:1, “For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.”

Col 2:16, 17, “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”

Those that honor the seventh day Sabbath break the eight day Sabbath to honor the seventh day Sabbath and then fail to live in booths! Who is really guilty of breaking the law of the Sabbaths here?

Lev 23:41, 42, “You shall keep it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations. You shall celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All who are native Israelites shall dwell in booths…”

Are we justified by law or by Grace?

Heb 9:8-11, "...the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation."

Heb 9:15, “And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

Heb 9:28, “so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”

Praise be to God we are saved by grace and not by works of the Law as it is written in Ephesians 2:7, 8, 9, 10 - Amen

Notice that the Eighth day Sabbath points to Christ and that old law was but a mere foreshadow of things to come thru Christ. Whose guilty of breaking the law here? Are we save by grace or by works of the law? (Eph 2:8, 9, 10)

The true Sabbath rest continues on in perpetuity in Christ himself whom we find rest (Matthew 11:28, 29, 30) because he fulfilled the all the Law.

Get it???

See Col 2:16, 17 and Heb 10:1 again…
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Bible quote are all from the NKJV

[BavarianWheels]

What question did he ask me?

There are a few, if you missed them, may I suggest you read again.
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[B. W.]

...We do not strive to keep the commandments so as to be saved because if we did then none could be saved. No we strive to keep God's Holy Commandments because we Love God and desire to obey Him in all things and because we know that His laws are just and good and we know that if we could keep them all things would good and perfect. Striving to keep God's Holy Commandments is what our works are. Now works does not and can not save you but it is your works that determines your reward

...So by refusing to even try to keep God's Holy Laws you make null and void faith and thereby you make null and void grace. So those of you that wish and have no desire to try to obey God and His Holy commandments are free to do so as it is you that has to give an answer to Jesus as to why you considered His laws worthless and why you considered His Holy Mark to be something evil so that it needs to be rejected and replaced with a commandment of men and I and all others who desire to obey

Fitzlight, Are you aware of the Eighth day Sabbath?

Lev 23:39, “Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest.”

NASB, ESV and other text translates Sabbath with Rest but it is a word used for Sabbath (shabbâthôn) which is a Sabbath. NKJV has it translated more accurately as 'sabbath-rest'

It is important why a Sabbath rest was declared for the eighth day in light of Jesus, the resurrection, as well as the wedding feast of the lamb soon to come after the final resurrection.

Those that honor the Seventh day Sabbath break the Eighth day Sabbath in order to honor the Seventh day Sabbath and then fail to live in booths as well! Is this a commandment given for perpetuity?

Who is really guilty of breaking the law of the Sabbaths here and considering them worthless?

To keep the Law as a proof text that we Love God as you so stated Fitzlight; for that reason, do we need to revert back to animal sacrifices as well to prove we love God?

How can you — yourself pick and choose what law to keep and not? Are you not also guilty of violating the law yourself which would disprove that you love God as you claim. By the Law — no flesh will be justified in the sight of God. For by the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Jesus freed us from the curse of the law.

Do not be so condemnatory toward those who choose the worship on the Eighth day Sabbath as they, according to scripture, break NO LAW in doing so. They look forward to Christ our First Fruit of the Resurrection and the Great day of the feast soon to come. Something to consider if you really love Christ as well.

If you like to honor the Seventh Day — FINE — go for it but realize the lack of love in your heart for those that look forward to Christ as we understand that the Law's purpose was to lead us to Christ as our true Sabbath Rest for perpetuity. Christ is the fulfillment of the law.

Besides this, no one mortal living on earth knows when the first Sabbath day was and thus what day it falls on. If the Passover falls on different solar calendar day every year — so does the true Sabbath. Ancient Israel calendar system was based on Lunar cycles — not Solar. The Lunar cycle came first. Only during the physical reign of Christ when Heaven and Earth unite will we know what day the Sabbath really falls on as prophesized in the OT.

You may claim it is a Saturday but what of the Eighth day Sabbath you fail to keep as well? The Sabbaths were foreshadows of the true Sabbath day rest found in Christ and why we are under a dispensation of Grace so that we can learn to love the Lord and each other.

Titus 2:11, 12, 13, 14, 15
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[jlay]

We are saved by grace not by works, but without works then there is no faith and without faith then there is no grace. So by refusing to even try to keep God's Holy Laws you make null and void faith and thereby you make null and void grace.

"Faith without works is dead." That is scripture. Where does it say without works there is no faith? This verse indicates that faith is there. Yet, it is not manifesting itself in the life of one who has faith.

How many times have you failed to act in love since being a Christian? If you are like me, probably a lot. When I fail to repsond in love, my faith is dead. When I respond in love, my faith is alive. Why do you feel compelled to apply this verse to the Sabbath? With what measure do you judge? Remember it will be also measured unto you.

So by refusing to even try to keep God's Holy Laws you make null and void faith and thereby you make null and void grace.

Legalism. You are saying that our actions, are able to undo what Christ did. Jesus and Paul both confimred that law is fulfilled in this, "Love the lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength. And love thy neighbor as thyself." I assume then, since you are qualified to judge Sabbath keeping, that you are always acting in faith in all you think, say, and do?

Fitz. I asked you a simple question.
"please provide NT SCRIPTURE on how a new covenant gentile believer is to "keep" the Sabbath."


FWIW, I take a day of rest. In fact my employer closes the business one day a week.

I would pray, that you would receive wisdom, and abandon such cultic, legalistic doctrines, that claim Christ's glory can be wiped out by people failing to keep the OT law.

[Fitzlight]

Re: sabbath keeping
by August » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:35 pm

So, Fitzlight, do you believe one who does not keep a Saturday Sabbath, or all the commandments, for that matter, is going to hell?Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

http://omnipotentgrace.wordpress.com
http://christianskepticism.blogspot.com
August
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Posts: 1661
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:22 pm
Location: Texas
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Yes I do believe that all who do not desire and who do not strive to keep God's Holy Commandments will not be saved. Here are some scripture to make this very clear.
Matthew 19:17, 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 14:15, 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments
John 14:21, 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 15:10, 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
1John 2:3-4, 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John 3:22, 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1John 3:24, 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1John 5:2-3, 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous
2John 1:6-9, 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Rev.12:17, 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev.14:12, 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev.22:14, 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

Now it is self evident that if we are liars we will not be saved. If we do not know God/Jesus we will not be saved. If God/Jesus' Holy spirit does not abide in us we will not be saved.
Now if you desire to say that these scriptures are wrong then you make God out to be a liar.
Now one last scripture.
Hebrews 6:4-6, 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
If a person after having repented and been saved should continues in or return to breaking God'/Jesus' Holy Commandments then they are no longer saved.
So again the answer to your question is yes. If anyone continues willfully to break God/Jesus' Holy Commandments they will not be saved.

[August]

Re: sabbath keeping
by August » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:35 pm

So, Fitzlight, do you believe one who does not keep a Saturday Sabbath, or all the commandments, for that matter, is going to hell?Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

http://omnipotentgrace.wordpress.com
http://christianskepticism.blogspot.com
August
Board Admin

Posts: 1661
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:22 pm
Location: Texas
Website

Yes I do believe that all who do not desire and who do not strive to keep God's Holy Commandments will not be saved. Here are some scripture to make this very clear.
Matthew 19:17, 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 14:15, 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments
John 14:21, 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 15:10, 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
1John 2:3-4, 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John 3:22, 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1John 3:24, 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1John 5:2-3, 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous
2John 1:6-9, 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Rev.12:17, 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev.14:12, 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev.22:14, 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

Now it is self evident that if we are liars we will not be saved. If we do not know God/Jesus we will not be saved. If God/Jesus' Holy spirit does not abide in us we will not be saved.
Now if you desire to say that these scriptures are wrong then you make God out to be a liar.
Now one last scripture.
Hebrews 6:4-6, 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
If a person after having repented and been saved should continues in or return to breaking God'/Jesus' Holy Commandments then they are no longer saved.
So again the answer to your question is yes. If anyone continues willfully to break God/Jesus' Holy Commandments they will not be saved.

Are you without sin? Do you never break any of the commandments?

[Kurieuo]

Re: sabbath keeping
by August » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:35 pm

So, Fitzlight, do you believe one who does not keep a Saturday Sabbath, or all the commandments, for that matter, is going to hell?Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

http://omnipotentgrace.wordpress.com
http://christianskepticism.blogspot.com
August
Board Admin

Posts: 1661
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:22 pm
Location: Texas
Website

Yes I do believe that all who do not desire and who do not strive to keep God's Holy Commandments will not be saved. Here are some scripture to make this very clear.
Matthew 19:17, 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 14:15, 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments
John 14:21, 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 15:10, 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
1John 2:3-4, 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John 3:22, 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1John 3:24, 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1John 5:2-3, 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous
2John 1:6-9, 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Rev.12:17, 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev.14:12, 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev.22:14, 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

Now it is self evident that if we are liars we will not be saved. If we do not know God/Jesus we will not be saved. If God/Jesus' Holy spirit does not abide in us we will not be saved.
Now if you desire to say that these scriptures are wrong then you make God out to be a liar.
Now one last scripture.
Hebrews 6:4-6, 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
If a person after having repented and been saved should continues in or return to breaking God'/Jesus' Holy Commandments then they are no longer saved.
So again the answer to your question is yes. If anyone continues willfully to break God/Jesus' Holy Commandments they will not be saved.

Your answer aligns with Paul in the first two chapters of Romans, but only tells half the story.

• Romans 2:12-13:
  12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Here is the second half of the story Paul so kindly sheds light on.

• Romans 3:21-24:
  21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Now if you wish to take your chances with the old covenant and keeping the Law, then that is your perogative. However, I have failed that, so stand condemned. The only hope for me being with God is to put my faith in Christ and His work under the new covenant of grace. Good luck with keeping all the commandments.

[Fitzlight]

We are saved by grace not by works, but without works then there is no faith and without faith then there is no grace. So by refusing to even try to keep God's Holy Laws you make null and void faith and thereby you make null and void grace.

"Faith without works is dead." That is scripture. Where does it say without works there is no faith? This verse indicates that faith is there. Yet, it is not manifesting itself in the life of one who has faith.

How many times have you failed to act in love since being a Christian? If you are like me, probably a lot. When I fail to repsond in love, my faith is dead. When I respond in love, my faith is alive. Why do you feel compelled to apply this verse to the Sabbath? With what measure do you judge? Remember it will be also measured unto you.

So by refusing to even try to keep God's Holy Laws you make null and void faith and thereby you make null and void grace.

Legalism. You are saying that our actions, are able to undo what Christ did. Jesus and Paul both confimred that law is fulfilled in this, "Love the lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength. And love thy neighbor as thyself." I assume then, since you are qualified to judge Sabbath keeping, that you are always acting in faith in all you think, say, and do?

Fitz. I asked you a simple question.
"please provide NT SCRIPTURE on how a new covenant gentile believer is to "keep" the Sabbath."
Here we go with the twisting of scripture another thing christians are very good at.
I ask you if your are dead and you then still present? Do you still exist? Of course not and if faith is dead it no longer exist either. Now why would you need to twist scripture? Is it because that is the only way you can make it appear that what you believe is true, because if you do not twist scripture then what you believe can be proven to be a lie?
Now as to your other question. Why do you not read what I posted and not what you want others to think I posted.
I said that we are to strive to obey God/Jesus' Holy Laws and I also said that we will fail in doing so, but that is why Jesus kept them for us perfectly so that when we fail we have forgiveness through Him that did keep them.
Now I wish to ask you some questions, well you answer them?
First If, as you claim, that God/Jesus' Holy Laws were done away with then why do you use them to convict others of sin?
Two. Since, as you say, Jesus suffered and died on the cross so as to remove His Holy Laws, that you claim, were contrary to us then why do you make null and void what He did by using them to convict others of sin?
Three. If, as you claim, that His Holy Laws were done away with by being nailed to His cross then does it not stand to reason that all men since that time are without sin as the Apostle says? 1John 3:4, 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now if sin is the transgression of the Law then
Romans 4:15, 15 for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 5:23, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Now as do all christians try to claim that even though there is no law there is still sin. I ask you how can that be when even God Himself says that where there is not law/commandments there is no sin? How you higher than God/Jesus so as to have the power to over rule Him. By what scripture do you claim that there is sin without the law? By what scripture do you claim that all the laws save one are to be inforced? You make bold claims but without substance.
BY WHAT LAWS DO YOU ACCUSE OTHERS OF SIN?
Matthew 12:11-13, 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
Mark 2:23-26, 23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the showbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
Mark 3:1-5, 1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
Mark 6:2, 2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Luke 4:15, 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day and stood up for to read.
Luke 4:31, 31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days
Luke 6:6, 6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

I can post many more scripture where Jesus shows us by example what we can and cannot do on the Sabbath, but I feel that these are enough.
First we can help others on the sabbath as long as we are not causing them to violate the sabbath by doing so. We can feed ourselves on the sabbath. We can go to the temple/church on the sabbath to worship.
Now I imagine that your next question or statement most likely is going to be, "Well I do all these things on sunday so I am keeping the sabbath." I say to you that you are not keeping the sabbath if you do not acknowlege that God's Holy Sabbath is the seventhday and not the firstday. Shall I post scripture that shows us that God/Jesus is more concerned with what we believe and do spiritually than what we do physically, because what we do spiritually is what we most likely will do physically and we are commanded by Him to keep His Holy Commandments. Not what does His Holy Commandments say concerning the sabbath? I am not speaking of what the law of Moses says I am speaking of God/Jesus' Holy Commandments. Here are His Holy Commandments.
Exodus 20:1-17, 1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Now I ask you, Why do you use the OT Laws to convict others of sin? Why do men pass laws that come from OT laws and then force men to obey them? With scritpture please show me where God/Jesus tells us which of His commandments we are to keep and which ones we are not. Show me how any of God/Jesus' Holy Laws are contrary to us.
Now I can show you how the laws of Moses were contrary to us and how the Levitical laws were contrary to us, but you are claiming that God/Jesus' Holy Commandments were also contrary to us and I would like for you to explain how they are. Again I also ask you if His Holy Commandments are contrary to us then why do you use them to convict others of sin.
You can not have it both ways as you make God/Jesus a God of confussion. Obey but do not obey, follow but do not follow. Either His Holy Laws have been done away or they have not and if they have been do away then why do men disobey Him by trying to inforce laws which He suffered for and died so as to remove them. Are we not told that they were nailed to His cross? So why do you feel you have the right to use them to convict of sin? I ask you since, as you claim, they have been done away that all men born since that time are without sin as we are told clearly that sin is the breaking of God/Jesus' Holy Laws. So it stands as the Apostle said that where there are no laws there can be no sin, but as for you, you are trying to claim that there is no law and yet even though there are no laws there is still sin. So I ask you how can there be sin without laws? You wish to claim that God/Jesus brought back all His Holy Laws except for the sabbathday law then show me scripture where He did that.
Now will you answer my questions?




FWIW, I take a day of rest. In fact my employer closes the business one day a week.

I would pray, that you would receive wisdom, and abandon such cultic, legalistic doctrines, that claim Christ's glory can be wiped out by people failing to keep the OT law.

[Fitzlight]

Were any of you aware of the eighth day Sabbath?

Lev 23:39, “Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest.”

NASB, ESV and other text translates Sabbath with Rest but it is a word used for Sabbath (shabbâthôn) which is a Sabbath. NKJV has it translated more accurately as 'sabbath-rest'

It is important why a Sabbath rest was declared for the eighth day in light of Jesus, the resurrection, as well as the wedding feast of the lamb soon to come after the final resurrection.

In the light of this, the eighth day Sabbath commemorates Christ the first fruit (harvest) of the resurrection and a Christians waiting for the day of the wedding feast (This the Bible teaches this very plainly). It is very important to understand about why the eighth day Sabbath is important to keep if you think all the law must be kept literally - Read the whole chapter. The Sabbath day rest and feast days all pointed to certain things Christ would do and literally fulfill.

It is very important to understand that the eighth day Sabbath is to be kept as well. Read the whole chapter. Next for our seventh day Sabbatarians - Do you live in booths for a certain period of days once a year? Or was the law given as a foreshadow of things to come pointing out aspects of Christ's work in fulfilling the law? Did Jesus fulfill the all the law or not? Is He now our rest - our sabbath?

Read Below:

Heb 10:1, “For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.”

Col 2:16, 17, “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”

Those that honor the seventh day Sabbath break the eight day Sabbath to honor the seventh day Sabbath and then fail to live in booths! Who is really guilty of breaking the law of the Sabbaths here?

Lev 23:41, 42, “You shall keep it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations. You shall celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All who are native Israelites shall dwell in booths…”

Are we justified by law or by Grace?

Heb 9:8-11, "...the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation."

Heb 9:15, “And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

Heb 9:28, “so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”

Praise be to God we are saved by grace and not by works of the Law as it is written in Ephesians 2:7, 8, 9, 10 - Amen

Notice that the Eighth day Sabbath points to Christ and that old law was but a mere foreshadow of things to come thru Christ. Whose guilty of breaking the law here? Are we save by grace or by works of the law? (Eph 2:8, 9, 10)

The true Sabbath rest continues on in perpetuity in Christ himself whom we find rest (Matthew 11:28, 29, 30) because he fulfilled the all the Law.

Get it???

See Col 2:16, 17 and Heb 10:1 again…
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Bible quote are all from the NKJV

Please show me where God at anytime makes mention of an eighth day in scripture. Now if you will look at what is mentioned in Col. 2:16, 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: It is clear that the Apostle is speaking of the Levitical and the Mosaic laws not the commandments. Show me where in God/Jesus Holy Commandments He mentions, drink, holy days, new moons or sabbaths as more than one. Only in the Levitical and Mosaic laws do you find these things mentioned, but you see you are unable to seperate these things because if you do then all that you believe falls apart. So you have to keep telling people that this and all other scriptures is refering to all the laws, the commandments of God/Jesus, the Levitical laws and the laws of Moses. Which of course they are not. The only laws that were contrary to us was the Levitical laws and the laws of Moses. The Holy Commandments of God/Jesus were not and never will be contrary to us unless you wish you to make David, a righteous man before God a liar. Have you not read what all he had to say concerning God/Jesus' Holy Laws? Where at anytime does he say that they are contrary to us?
There is no eighth day. God only counted seven and He made the seventhday holy and He set it up as His Holy Mark that shows that we are His people and He is our God who makes us Holy and all who reject His Holy Mark are not of Him.

[Fitzlight]

Re: sabbath keeping
by August » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:35 pm

So, Fitzlight, do you believe one who does not keep a Saturday Sabbath, or all the commandments, for that matter, is going to hell?Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

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August
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Yes I do believe that all who do not desire and who do not strive to keep God's Holy Commandments will not be saved. Here are some scripture to make this very clear.
Matthew 19:17, 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 14:15, 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments
John 14:21, 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 15:10, 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
1John 2:3-4, 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John 3:22, 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1John 3:24, 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1John 5:2-3, 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous
2John 1:6-9, 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Rev.12:17, 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev.14:12, 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev.22:14, 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

Now it is self evident that if we are liars we will not be saved. If we do not know God/Jesus we will not be saved. If God/Jesus' Holy spirit does not abide in us we will not be saved.
Now if you desire to say that these scriptures are wrong then you make God out to be a liar.
Now one last scripture.
Hebrews 6:4-6, 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
If a person after having repented and been saved should continues in or return to breaking God'/Jesus' Holy Commandments then they are no longer saved.
So again the answer to your question is yes. If anyone continues willfully to break God/Jesus' Holy Commandments they will not be saved.

Your answer aligns with Paul in the first two chapters of Romans, but only tells half the story.

• Romans 2:12-13:
  12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Here is the second half of the story Paul so kindly sheds light on.

• Romans 3:21-24:
  21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Now if you wish to take your chances with the old covenant and keeping the Law, then that is your perogative. However, I have failed that, so stand condemned. The only hope for me being with God is to put my faith in Christ and His work under the new covenant of grace. Good luck with keeping all the commandments.

I have never stated at anytime that we are to strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Laws so as to be saved and please do not try to make out that I have. I have stated that we are saved by grace not of works, but we are to strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Commandments as that is our works. Christians claim that they can do good works without trying to keep God/Jesus' Holy Laws, but you can not and I say to you that if the keeping of just one of His Holy Commandment removes you grace and places you under the law so then does the keeping of any of them. So if you think within yourself that God said you shall not steal and it keeps you from stealing you have obeyed His Holy Law and therefore you have removed yourself from grace and placed yourself under the law. If you think within yourself God says you shall not kill and it keeps you from killing then you have obeyed Go/Jesus' Holy Laws and have removed yourself from grace and placed yourself under the law. If you think within yourself God says remember the sabbathday to keep it holy and it keeps you from violating the sabbath then you have removed yourself from grace and placed yourself under the law.
So by your belief if anyone obeys God in anything they have removed themselves from Grace and placed themselves under the law.
So please tell me why if you are not legalistic do you use the law to convict anyone of of sin? Plus I ask you do you believe that you do not sin simple because you say you believe in Jesus and accept His death for your death and or resurrected with Him? Do you believe that God's Holy Laws were simple taken away for the saved yet remain for the unsaved? Now finally do you believe that all who obey God are under the law and unsaved?
Obeying God is the keeping of His Holy Laws.

[Kurieuo]

Your answer aligns with Paul in the first two chapters of Romans, but only tells half the story.

• Romans 2:12-13:
  12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Here is the second half of the story Paul so kindly sheds light on.

• Romans 3:21-24:
  21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Now if you wish to take your chances with the old covenant and keeping the Law, then that is your perogative. However, I have failed that, so stand condemned. The only hope for me being with God is to put my faith in Christ and His work under the new covenant of grace. Good luck with keeping all the commandments.

I have never stated at anytime that we are to strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Laws so as to be saved and please do not try to make out that I have. I have stated that we are saved by grace not of works, but we are to strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Commandments as that is our works.

No, the "grace" you preach has God giving a gift He then takes back once you fail to keep the Sabbath (or law). I can quote your previous response if you are purposely being elusive on this. You are clearly teaching a doctrine of works since you believe we continue to be bound by the Law after receiving Christ.

Furthermore, when we are obligated to continue keeping the law, we can not keep the law out of love for God. Christ freed us from the law allowing love to more freely abound between us and God. Our forgiveness is a free gift which covers our sin, and we enter a new convenant of love and grace the moment we accept that gift. To return to the law for soteriological benefit after being freed from it through Christ is like a dog choosing to go back to its vomit.

[jlay]

First If, as you claim, that God/Jesus' Holy Laws were done away with then why do you use them to convict others of sin?

Rom. 7:7 "What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
Rom. 3:20 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."
Rom. 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
The Law condemns. It exposes the sinfulness of the soul. That is what Jesus did with the rich young ruler. The Law can only lead us to the cross. It can not save us. It shows us how lawless we really are.

Since, as you say, Jesus suffered and died on the cross so as to remove His Holy Laws, that you claim, were contrary to us then why do you make null and void what He did by using them to convict others of sin?

I would say that Jesus (in his own words) FULFILLED the law and the prophets. And as Paul said, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 cor 5:21)

If, as you claim, that His Holy Laws were done away with by being nailed to His cross then does it not stand to reason that all men since that time are without sin as the Apostle says?

The Bible makes it clear that Christ was, "the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." (Rev. 13:8) And, "so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone" (Heb. 2:9) And that Jesus was, " who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. " (1 Tim. 2:6)
And, "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

Does this mean that all will inherit eternal life? No.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life."
The sin problem has been dealt with. Even thought sin till exist. No question about that. It is not a matter of whether sin exists, but has it been dealt with. The unbeliever's sin has been dealt with. But if they do not 'trust' in the work of Christ, then they will be condemned. The Law helps to enlighten the sinner as to what to beleive. That Jesus is the Christ, the lamb of God, who paid your sin debt.

I can't say this any more simply than this. Anyone who preaches that salvation is obtained by one's own efforts and striving to keep the OT, is preaching a false gospel.

Quoting random verses and trying to apply them to Sabbath keeping is reckless and lacks any evidence of rightly dividing the word of truth.

I say to you that you are not keeping the sabbath if you do not acknowlege that God's Holy Sabbath is the seventhday and not the firstday.

Further, the Sabbath is not established by the Roman calendar. Saturday is derived from Saturn's day. A pagan diety. Many people today consider Sunday as the last day of the week, not the first. You couldn't even reconcile the Jewish calendar to the modern calendar if you wanted to.



Romans 14:5-6 "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord."

If you want to take one day and honor the lord, then you are welcome. But when you try to force your view on others, you become a legalist, and burden yourself with the whole law as a means to righteousness.
Romans 14:13 "Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."

Jesus gave several commandments in the NT. Most notable, 'love one another.' " If we take the encounter with the rich young ruler as a literal command. Then I would hope that you have sold all his possessions and given the proceeds to the poor. I can say with relative certainty that you have not.

It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever:

There is certainly something to be said for Sabbath keeping and the nation of Israel. Jews are saved the same way anyone is saved, by faith. However, God called the Jews to manifest His Kingdom on earth, through the OT laws, and through their Nation.

Yes I do believe that all who do not desire and who do not strive to keep God's Holy Commandments will not be saved.

I have never stated at anytime that we are to strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Laws so as to be saved and please do not try to make out that I have.

[B. W.]

Please show me where God at anytime makes mention of an eighth day in scripture. …. There is no eighth day. God only counted seven and He made the seventhday holy and He set it up as His Holy Mark that shows that we are His people and He is our God who makes us Holy and all who reject His Holy Mark are not of Him.

Okay -- The Bible declares Boldly shows where and how ….

Lev 23:39, 40, 41, 42, 43, “Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest. 41 You shall keep it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations. You shall celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 You shall dwell in booths for seven days…”

Thank you for proving my point I made about you — you do pick and choose what laws adhere and what ones do not. Your answer is a complete contradiction with itself.

What you accuse your fellow Christians of doing, you do so even more. Look in the mirror and take the beam out of your eye. You demonstrate that have no love in your heart and thus break the Law.

The true Sabbath rest continues on in perpetuity in Christ himself whom we find rest (Matthew 11:28, 29, 30) because he fulfilled the all the Law.

Col 2:16, 17, “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”

Heb 10:1, “For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.”

Questions: Does the Bible teach that God only loves those that keep the seventh day Sabbath or those that Believe in Christ?

Next, Did Jesus break the Sabbath law for gathering grain on the Sabbath? Why such a harvest of Grain?
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[Canuckster1127]

Fitzlight,

You appear to be equating Jesus' commandments with the legal systems of the OT. Do you sincerely not see any difference? Jesus himself was accused by the Scribes and Pharisees of breaking "commandments" related to the Sabbath, washing before meals and then association with unclean people.

You seriously believe salvation comes from "striving to keep the commands?"

How sad.

bart