Dr. Hugh Ross

[Jac3510]

And I'm sure you know that God can use evil to produce good. That doesn't make the evil good.

For all of you people who are arguing that death is either good or at least not evil, would you care give me your definition of evil?

[RickD]

And I'm sure you know that God can use evil to produce good. That doesn't make the evil good.

For all of you people who are arguing that death is either good or at least not evil, would you care give me your definition of evil?

I guess you could be referring to the definition of evil that means "harmful". I guess we are debating over which interpretation of a word to use. Evil, Day....

[BavarianWheels]

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Evil:

Anything contrary to a command of God.
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[Byblos]

Yes, what? Are they dead or alive? If they're dead then both the doctrine of hell as well as the physical resurrection make no sense. And if they're alive then physical death is not evil as even people in hell will have benefited from it having been made alive again. So which is it?

Do you believe that dead people can't be conscious?

Lol, you know I do but not because they're dead but because they're alive in spirit even though they're physically dead. If this is your understanding too Jac then there's hope for you after all .

[RickD]

Jac, I am now agreeing with you that Physical death is evil. I looked up evil, and the #2 meaning is a "harmful, injurious". So, I guess I can possibly see physical death as harmful, or injurious to the physical body. Just like we agree that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in 6 days.

[DannyM]

Twisted up is about the last thing I think you are. You've clearly stated over and over again that you don't think death is evil. People have a habit of rationalizing their sin. In the same way, your theological position requires you rationalize away death. Twisted up? Hah. You just simplistically declare it not evil and that all of humanity is just wrong about it and that's that. No, I think you are as about as twisted up in your view as hyper-Calvinists are about having to defend the notion that God gets glory by choosing to create people for the express purpose of sending them to Hell.
Morality is a funny thing. It's something that is in your face. You accept it or you don't. Those who don't have no qualms about ignoring it. That's just human nature.

Jac, to clarify: I can rationalise away death by pointing to the afterlife. I'm not saying death is good. To be honest, death by desease such as cancer is pure evil. But death- the natural act of dying after living a life is not evil in my opinion. God gave me life. Why should I protest that he limits this life and requests of me that I spend eternity with Him? He might not have created me. I should be thankful for (hopefully) 70/80 years as opposed to no creation and nothing. I do agree with you about the evil perceived by a mother whose daughter is dying from cancer.

And again, if you choose to ignore historical evidence, then that is your problem. Something you would have to defend if you cared enough about defending your position rather than just repeating what you already believe. You can assert until you are blue in the face. In the end, all you have are your assertions. I have given you historical, linguistic, moral, and contextual evidence against your position at every turn, and you shrug your shoulders and ask me why you actually have to defend anything?
This is the reason I can't stand systematic theology. We get these theological propositions in our head that we must defend at all costs, and anything that doesn't line up with that proposition gets ignored.

Jac, if I'm shown to be wrong I'll concede that I am wrong. The reason I have not jumped in too often is because you have been defending yourself while debating 2 or 3 people at a time. I know you're good, but I thought it would be a little too much to jump in with the crowd on my side. If you understand the sentiment ...

Don't misunderstand me, Danny. I am under absolutely no illusion I'll ever change your mind. No one has ever changed your mind. That's true of all human beings. We change our minds when we choose to. The only reason I'm having these conversations is that I'm sick and tired of seeing this site mock YECs with the vitriol that they do. Your arguments aren't going to go unchallenged anymore. People--including you--can see for themselves what the real arguments are on both sides, and they can decide for themselves who is ignoring what.

Actually, YOU have changed my mind before. Very early in my membership, regarding Numbers, I think. Anyway, all I really see from you nowadays, Jac is you defending YEC. I understand the urge to counter any mockery, but I remember you telling me you specifically like to avoid these debates. I've enjoyed reading much of your take on YEC as you're (usually) very persuasive, and certainly, for me, easy and good to read. Do you think I just want to sit here, being unchallenged, creating my own little illusion of a rosy garden in OEC world? Nah, not at all. I can understand I may have a predisposition blinding me to certain "facts" that you might be presenting, but would certainly not swerve a vital piece of information if I thought I saw it.

[Kurieuo]

Re: 1, physical death is something many of us dread. Then again, some welcome physical death. Yet, in the context of this world only death can be seen as our enemy since we can't stop it. In the context of God's plan it is not at all our enemy but a stepping stone into either something far greater, or expulsion from by God if you reject Christ. To those who would perish, death would only been seen as evil, to those who have life it is seen as something to look forward to, to God death is just an outworking of His intended plan.

So if a person dies and goes to heaven, death isn't evil. But if a person dies and goes to hell, death is evil. Is that what you are saying?

I thought my words were obvious, but... "To those who would perish, death would only be seen as evil."

Re: 2, God can conquer evil with good, however such evil must have been apart of God's plan. If God uses something evil, that does not make that something good.

Correct. So you would agree that just because Paul longed to be with Christ--since he was not when he wrote, thanks entirely to the Fall--and that just because Christ's death brought our salvation, that does not mean that either Paul's or Christ's death are good. They could, in fact, be evil that God is using for His purposes.

But where there is a greater good in God allowing us to have freedom to choose (and as such commit evil acts), if God did not intend physical death to happen then it seems God had no power to stop "physical death" (evil) from happening.

With humanity, it was apart of God's plan to allow us the freedom to choose good or evil actions in order to have a fuller loving relation with us. Yet, in death, limits are placed on the amount of evil a person and people can do. Is this not the reason given in Scripture as to why lifespans were decreased from 1000 years to much less after the flood? To limit the evil in the hearts of humanity. There is even here some good to death in God's created natural order.

So, again, you recognize that God can use an evil thing and actually bring good out of it. That doesn't make death good, though, or even neutral. It just shows how great God is.

But again... I don't see how this gets you off the hook with "physical death" infringing upon God's intended plan and as such God's omnipotence. I haven't read the rest of your response below yet, but I'm not sure you're getting this part...

1. If God is omnipotent then nothing can impose itself upon God's plan unless God intends it.
2. Physical death (presumably you believe brought about by Satan) imposed itelf upon God's creation without God intended it.
3. Therefore, God is not omnipotent.

On the other hard, I find it hard to fathom a reason other than death being apart of God's intended plan, as to how physical death was able to impose itself upon God's creation.

Because Adam sinned. That was the view of the early Jews. It was the view of the CFs. It's been the view of the church for centuries. I don't see why that is hard to accept. Do you see a logical inconsistency that we all missed for 1800 years?

I can understand this if there was an obvious correlation, but none exists. How can sin cause herbivore animals to suddenly change into carnivore animals? How can sin cause the world to begin winding down? No, physical death is separate from Adam and Eve's sin. No correlation exists which naturally follows. It's like saying because I'm drinking a cup of coffee, the sky is going to turn red. No correlation. On the other hand, Adam sinning by lets say killing Eve, well then physical death makes sense. Direct correlation here. Physical death was able to impose itself upon God's creation because Adam freely chose to kill Eve. You need to explain how Adam and Eve's sin caused all the dramatic changes which brought physical death into the world, if you wish to tie it to their sin.

The context of "physical death" being an enemy of Christ is that the crucifixion was intended by Satan to defeat Christ and put Him to shame as a false prophet. This is very different from physical death in a general sense being called Christ's enemy.

No . . . the text clearly says the "LAST ENEMY" to be defeated. Death has not yet been defeated. It will be at the new creation. If this were merely Christ's death that was the enemy, then death would have already been defeated . . . you could not call it the last enemy.

I still think you are missing some crucial issues Paul covers in 1 Cor 15.

For example,

• 20 But now Christ ahas been raised from the dead, the bfirst fruits of those who care asleep.
  21 For since aby a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
  22 For aas in Adam all die, so also in 1Christ all will be made alive.
  23 But each in his own order: Christ athe first fruits, after that bthose who are Christ's at cHis coming,

We died in Adam a spiritual death which affects our relationship with God. God promised Adam that if he ate from the tree, in the very day he ate fruit he would die. Thus, it is a traditional and standard theological understanding that he died a spiritual death. So "as in Adam all die [spiritually], so also in Christ all will be made alive." Our relationship with God is reinstated once we receive Christ, albeit to be more fully reinstated in the hereafter. Another component to Adam and Eve's sin was that they would now eventually suffer physical death. However, as Christ was resurrected, we are now also promised resurrection into life with Him. On the other hand, "If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." (1 Cor 15:32)

Jesus conquered death, it has no hold over us. I'm not sure what you make of the following:

• 42 aSo also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown 1ba perishable body, it is raised 2can imperishable body;
  43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in aglory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
  44 it is sown a anatural body, it is raised a bspiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
  45 So also it is written, “The first aman, Adam, became a living soul.” The blast Adam became a clife-giving spirit.
  46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

It was all intended by God that the natural come first. God cannot create evil, as this makes God evil. Thus, if physical death is entirely evil as you say, and was created by God, then God is evil. Looking at it from Gman's and my own perspective, we can still comprehend 1 Cor 15 with the understanding that physical death is our enemy, was our enemy... but that is certainly no longer the case for those in Christ.

• 50 Now I say this, brethren, that aflesh and blood cannot binherit the kingdom of God; nor does 1the perishable inherit 2cthe imperishable.
  51 Behold, I tell you a amystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be bchanged,
  52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for athe trumpet will sound, and bthe dead will be raised 1imperishable, and cwe will be changed.
  53 For this 1perishable must put on 2athe imperishable, and this bmortal must put on immortality.
  54 But when this 1perishable will have put on 2the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “aDeath is swallowed up in victory.
  55 “aO death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
  56 The sting of adeath is sin, and bthe power of sin is the law;
  57 but athanks be to God, who gives us the bvictory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'll say to you, with all due respect, the same thing I said to Gman: if you really and honestly think that death is not evil, then I would be very interested in the reaction of a grieving family when you tell them at their loved one's funeral that an evil had not befallen them.

Of course the family will miss them. Interestingly at funerals the focus is often on their lived life and passing into a new life. The life of the loved one is valued, remembered and celebrated. I'd hate to think that someone at a funeral just shakes their head and all they say to the family is that they're sorry such an evil befell their loved one. "What a shame. Now they're dead!" Let's forget their life and how precious life is.

Death helps us understand life is precious. Many lessons are taught to us in death. Many lessons God wanted us to know. By installing physical death in creation God is able to shape our character and teach us a great deal! In our mortality, the the mortality of our world, we are forced to look outward to something - Someone - above us. Satan would have much preferred Adam and Eve would live forever just as he cunningly said, "You will not surely die!" Means we can become self-absorbed in ourselves without depending on God. The person who believes death to be entirely evil misses out on so much enrichment and meaning!

[Gman]

I'll say to you, with all due respect, the same thing I said to Gman: if you really and honestly think that death is not evil, then I would be very interested in the reaction of a grieving family when you tell them at their loved one's funeral that an evil had not befallen them.

Is it evil for someone to drown? Is it evil for someone to get into a motorcycle accident? We make cars, motorcycles, etc.. which are essentially missiles that can kill, and then we blame God for it and call it evil? Sometimes it's just the circumstances too not that it is evil..

Funny . . . you tell me I am taking it out of context, and then you never mention the context at all. Again, assertions arguments do not make.

The context is the resurrection of mankind with specific reference to the resurrection of Christ. In THAT context, death is called the enemy of Christ which WILL BE defeated on the last day, at the general resurrection. If death is the enemy of Christ, then it is evil.

Don't forget spiritual death too... Context? Again, where in these verses does it say that death is evil? Death IS an enemy, just like running into a brick wall. It stops you in your tracks. But the brick wall is not evil.. It's just a barrier.

Get it now?

Fine, but every metaphor has a concrete meaning that underlies it. Where do you think they got the idea of the tree of life. Were they not thinking of Genesis 2-3? Are they, then, not looking at its qualitative aspects? Or do you actually believe that if we don't eat from that tree in the new creation that we will die there, too?

Meaning it's a metaphor in a sense that it wasn't physical... Are things in heaven always physical?

I didn't know you were an ethical teleologist. So the end justifies the means? Death is good because it limits overpopulation? Do you support the forced abortion policies in China? Or if the world does become overpopulated, do you support the execution of people, say by lottery?

Yes... NATURAL death is good in a sense that it limits the population. But not forced death.. So? So what about God limiting man's time on earth to 120 years? Genesis 6:3. Does that make God a murderer too?

How does this follow at all? I can't die, and therefore, I can't produce kids. What?

There is only so much space on this earth... Right? If God intended that man wouldn't die, then how do you explain Gen 1:28? Man (at some point) would have to stop reproducing... Correct? If true, then less people would be in the spiritual heaven and on earth. God would have to stop his creative processes which are both spiritual and physical...

Get it now?

I have thought about it. A lot. What makes you think I haven't?

No offense, but it doesn't appear you have truly thought these things through Jac..

[Dazed and Confused]

I wouldn't consider it being judgmental just factual. I think someone telling me I need to repent before God or I have no salvation because I don't agree with their six day cause as being harsh and judgmental, among other points. So then would you say that someone making these type of claims based solely on my creation stance an honorable person? I meant what I said with all meekness and trembling before the Lord. He knows all that I have gone through concerning this issue and of course He knows my heart.

If you say so. I suppose you have fully removed the log from your own eye?

I don't like playing in sandboxes, the sand gets all up in my shoes and it's hard to get out. And sometimes you can accidentally kick sand in your brothers eye.

I'd also like to know where any YEC leader has ever said you have to believe in the YEC framework to be saved. Now you are just saying things that are flat untrue.

Some YEC proponents strongly imply this when they call someone with an OEC view a heretic or that their serving another god. Our we reading the same thread here or did I make a wrong turn somewhere? Ken Ham stated at my church that "those who didn't adhere to the six day creation model should repent before God for making Him a liar" and I should know because I was there. Harsh and judgmental wouldn't you think? It's like the man has no honor, but he sure left with a fat wallet. I believe my church still has Ken Ham's visit available for podcast if your interested. Let me know.

I just take this as further evidence of the divisiveness of OEC, and the further double standard you guys apply.

Yeah, again I don't think were on the same page here, because none of what you just said seems to be applicable to what has been discussed here on this thread.

You get angry when YECs make "divisive" statements, but engage in them just the same here.

What divisive statements are you referring too?

Like you said, God is your judge, not me, not anyone else.

That's not what I said or implied, though He is our Judge. What I said being, "I meant what I said with all meekness and trembling before the Lord. He knows all that I have gone through concerning this issue and of course He knows my heart."

You didn't answer my question before, but I'll rephrase as to make it more acceptable to your pallet. Would you consider someone telling you to "repent before God for making Him a liar" based solely on your creation stance an honorable person?

[Canuckster1127]

I fully understand the philosophical underpinnings of the hypostatic union.

Got it all figured out? Congratulations. You're a much smarter man than I'll ever be then. I still think it's quite a mystery.

[Gman]

Apparently, before the fall where there wasn't any death, we could jump off trees or cliffs and not break our necks, internal organs or legs either...

Must have been made out of rubber... Boy, I'd like to live in those times.. Kind of bounce around all day.

[Kurieuo]

Jac, I am now agreeing with you that Physical death is evil. I looked up evil, and the #2 meaning is a "harmful, injurious". So, I guess I can possibly see physical death as harmful, or injurious to the physical body. Just like we agree that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in 6 days.

Evil is actually more complicated than that, and I'm sure Jac would agree. As God is the source of all good, evil is really anything anti-God.

[RickD]

Jac, I am now agreeing with you that Physical death is evil. I looked up evil, and the #2 meaning is a "harmful, injurious". So, I guess I can possibly see physical death as harmful, or injurious to the physical body. Just like we agree that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in 6 days.

Evil is actually more complicated than that, and I'm sure Jac would agree. As God is the source of all good, evil is really anything anti-God.

Is day 24 hours or a long, finite period of time? Is evil anything anti-God or harmful, injurious?

[RickD]

I wouldn't consider it being judgmental just factual. I think someone telling me I need to repent before God or I have no salvation because I don't agree with their six day cause as being harsh and judgmental, among other points. So then would you say that someone making these type of claims based solely on my creation stance an honorable person? I meant what I said with all meekness and trembling before the Lord. He knows all that I have gone through concerning this issue and of course He knows my heart.

If you say so. I suppose you have fully removed the log from your own eye?

I don't like playing in sandboxes, the sand gets all up in my shoes and it's hard to get out. And sometimes you can accidentally kick sand in your brothers eye.

I'd also like to know where any YEC leader has ever said you have to believe in the YEC framework to be saved. Now you are just saying things that are flat untrue.

Some YEC proponents strongly imply this when they call someone with an OEC view a heretic or that their serving another god. Our we reading the same thread here or did I make a wrong turn somewhere? Ken Ham stated at my church that "those who didn't adhere to the six day creation model should repent before God for making Him a liar" and I should know because I was there. Harsh and judgmental wouldn't you think? It's like the man has no honor, but he sure left with a fat wallet. I believe my church still has Ken Ham's visit available for podcast if your interested. Let me know.

I just take this as further evidence of the divisiveness of OEC, and the further double standard you guys apply.

Yeah, again I don't think were on the same page here, because none of what you just said seems to be applicable to what has been discussed here on this thread.

You get angry when YECs make "divisive" statements, but engage in them just the same here.

What divisive statements are you referring too?

Like you said, God is your judge, not me, not anyone else.

That's not what I said or implied, though He is our Judge. What I said being, "I meant what I said with all meekness and trembling before the Lord. He knows all that I have gone through concerning this issue and of course He knows my heart."

You didn't answer my question before, but I'll rephrase as to make it more acceptable to your pallet. Would you consider someone telling you to "repent before God for making Him a liar" based solely on your creation stance an honorable person?

Dazed, If you have that podcast, I'm interested as long as it's unedited. I don't want to see something added or left out. I'd rather let Ham dig his own grave so to speak. Thanks

[Kurieuo]

Jac, I am now agreeing with you that Physical death is evil. I looked up evil, and the #2 meaning is a "harmful, injurious". So, I guess I can possibly see physical death as harmful, or injurious to the physical body. Just like we agree that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in 6 days.

Evil is actually more complicated than that, and I'm sure Jac would agree. As God is the source of all good, evil is really anything anti-God.

Is day 24 hours or a long, finite period of time?

Scripture uses yom to refer to morning to evening, a morning until the following morning, or unspecified period of time. I'll leave it up to you and each person what they find acceptable for Genesis 1.

Is evil anything anti-God or harmful, injurious?

If you are doing something against God than you're commiting evil. Saying evil is just something harmful or injurious seems a very secular way of putting it.