sabbath keeping

[Canuckster1127]

You seriously don't see a connection between circumcision and the 10 commandments?

That's right. Simply put, circumcision is not part of the 10. Notice the 10 were placed INSIDE the ark, and the regulations written by Moses (obviously directed by God) were placed OUTSIDE the ark?

Simple question. Why?
The answer is because THESE were the shadow of things to come...they would be nailed to the Cross and left as the 'old' covenant that NEVER was about keeping the Law for salvation. Salvation has always been from Christ, through Faith as Paul acknowledges.
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All you've done here is ignore the multitude of scripture and early church father quotes that demonstrate your position to be completely missing the point.

Nothing more I can do Bav. You can be as frustrated with it as you like. I've listened to what you have to say and I've addressed it directly and all you've done is repeat yourself without directly addressing the scripture and early church understanding and practice that is dead set against your understanding.

We've done this dance before. Perhaps your frustration finds some of its source in your unwillingness to address these clear statements in favor of limiting your argument to those portions of Scripture that by themselves can be constructed to support your cause. If that's all there was, you'd have a case. As it stands, you have to ignore one of the primary messages of the New Testament.

Like it or not, the 10 commandments and circumcision are part and parcel of the Old Covenant, equated scripturally and addressed clearly by the New. You're certainly free if you wish to take your freedom and return to the old if you wish, but it doesn't make you any more saved, any better a person or any more loved by God than any other brother or sister in Christ who exercises and lives in the freedom of the New Covenant.

If you want to go beyond that and stand in judgement of others then the message of Paul in Galatians is still applicable.

Galatians 5:11-12 - “But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!”

Harsh words, to be sure, but they're not mine.

blessings,

bart

[Kurieuo]

I think many are confusing what Bav is saying with what they think he's saying. To clarify to the best of my ability, he never once mentioned adherence to the law, he only referred to God's Commandments. Moreover, he never once related adherence to the commandments with salvation. In fact, he repeatedly stated our inability to keep the commandments 100% but his central point is that it does not negate our obligation to keep them, including the Sabbath. My only contention, therefore, with what he is saying is the Saturday vs. any other day issue. Otherwise, I am in full agreement with him.

You are correct, Byblos. The issue is Sabbath vs. any other day. Thank you for noticing. Maybe you understand my frustration in relaying this point when all I keep getting in return is that I'm promoting legalism. I'll now reply to Kurieuo.
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I quoted Bav saying "God's Law" which to me refers to the entire Mosaic Law.

Bav, if you only intend the 10 commandments, then I must ask why the rest does not apply? Surely this is not just a matter of SDA taste and opinion?

In any case, Scripture is clear the words of the covenant given to Israel were the 10 commandments (Exodus 34:27-28, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 9:9, 1 Kings 8:9,21, Exodus 31:16-18), so again I quote from Hebrews 8, as Bart has also quoted:

• 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
  
  8For finding fault with them, He says,
  "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
  WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
  WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
  9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
  ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
  TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
  FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
  AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
  10"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
  AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
  I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
  AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
  AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
  AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
  11"AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
  AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
  FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
  FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
  12"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
  AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
  
  13When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

[Byblos]

Addressing another issue that is continually brought up with regard to the 10 commandments. Bav, please correct me if I'm misrepresenting but it seems to be a recurrant theme with you that the 10 commandments are a definitive group and they exist as a group that cannot be separated from one another.

As I look at it, the scriptures themselves do not do this or teach it and so it would appear that this concept is coming from somewhere else.

The ten commandments are treated as a group in only three places in scripture other than when the were given in Exodus 20.

Exodus 34:28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

Interesting, isn't it? Here the 10 commandments are equated as the covenant between God and Israel. (What's the outward sign of that covenant by the way? That's right, circumcision.)

Deuteronomy 4:13 13He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

Seems to be saying the same thing. The 10 commandments are equated with the Old Covenant.

Hebrews 8:6-13 (New International Version)
6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[a]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Seems the Old Covenant (equated twice in the OT with the 10 commandments) with it's outward sign of circumcision (which the early church recognized was no longer in effect following Christ) was written on stone tablets but this new covenant is written on men's hearts. That sounds remarkably like the internal work of the Holy Spirit upon our spirits.

I 've heard you repeatedly ask if the "commandment" against murder is in effect implying that if we continue to hold that murder is wrong then we must maintain that sabbath keeping is still in effect. What you're doing here is confusing moral law with societal law, I believe. Want to know the answer? The "law" on the stone tablets against murder in the spiritual sense ARE no longer in effect for the believer. That law has moved from stone to heart and it's now something much more.

That's why Jesus said as He did,

Matt 5:21-23 21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Jesus law has moved from the stone to the heart and it governs more than outward actions, because Jesus is looking to the time that His life, death and resurrection will bring about something very new.

The OT has moved to the NT. The old covenant has moved to the new covenant. Stone chiselled by God's finger has moved to hearts renewed and brought alive. The priesthood of the temple has moved to the priesthood of every believer. The Sabbath of the seventh day has moved to the Sabbath of the heart that remains at rest in the peace of God.

The Sabbath that you appeal to in the ten commandments wasn't instituted there. It was given in Exodus 16 before then.

Exodus 16: 21-23 21Each morning everyone gathered as much as he needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, "This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.' "

It wasn't attached to other laws then before the 10 commandments and as I've mentioned, they weren't tied together following that without it being equated with the old covenant. When we look at the old covenant in the totality of the Law of Moses there are multitudes of worship laws, including the Sabbath that are no longer in effect. Why? Because God no longer dwells within a physical temple or tabernacle which required priests to perform ritual and which also required a societal day universally recognized for work to cease for focus.

The 10 commandments are referred to individually without the others far more than they are referenced collectively. That seems odd, doesn't it Bav, if they are a collective group that is somehow different than the collective Mosaic law that you want to try to believe are somehow "greater" and "more important" laws than all the other laws given in the same generation.

In the NT when it speaks of the greatest commandments, the 10 are not even quoted then but rather the essence of what God is going to write on the hearts of men through the new covenant.

Now here Bav, is where I have to say something that is hard. I accept that you do not believe that keeping the Sabbath or any of the other 10 commandments or multitudes of OT laws is the basis of salvation. I accept and respect that you practice Sabbath keeping as a response to what you believe God has done. Yet, for all the claims that this is not legalism, I have only to look at the tradition of the SDA and you and I both are going to have to admit that the practices there go well beyond the 10 commandements and just keeping the sabbath. Let's look at SDA material itself:

22. Christian Behavior:
We are called to be a godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with the principles of heaven. For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things which will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit. It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. (Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 John 2:6; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 4:8; 2 Cor. 10:5; 6:14-7:1; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; Lev. 11:1-47; 3 John 2.)

In practice, there's a great deal of emphasis upon what we are not to do rather than proactive focus upon what we are to do. Now, I don't have a problem with anyone adopting any of these practices. There's a very fine line however between that returning to legalism. I'm going to say it. The point of view with regard to Sabbath Keeping however and these inclination to my mind demonstrates to me how one leads to the other. The circumcision of the heart that moves one from seeing God as demanding performance of us for our acceptance to that of grace is apparently at best, pushing right up against the limits.

So anyway, I'm sure this will anger you. I'm directly addressing what I see as your most repeated argument and frankly, it just doesn't hold up.

blessings,

bart

Amazingly enough, I find myself in agreement with much of what Bart stated above. So how is it that I find agreement with both Bav that we are to keep the 10 commandments (noting the Saturday vs. any other day worship difference), and with Bart that the 10 commandments are part and parcel of the old covenant that was fulfilled by and in Christ and, therefore, is not binding on Christians? (and no, I am not schizophrenic, I swear).

Well, the answer is rather simple (to me at least), and that is because the 10 commandments comprise (in whole or in part) the natural law that God has written in our hearts. It is through the use of reason that we know that to murder or to steal or to commit adultery is wrong, not because it was written on a tablet as a covenant between God and Israel. It is through the knowledge imprinted unto our conscience by our Creator that we know we are to worship Him and not because we are bound by a fulfilled covenant. Paul says exactly the same thing in Rom 2:14-15

"When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts.

So to conclude, I believe the Gospel teaches that we are to keep the 10 commandments, not because we are still under the law but because the law has been written in our hearts and we're able to discern it with reason. The same reason that tells us we can worship God on any day we darn well please.

[Kurieuo]

As for the unimportance of God's Law, I believe it is important as it reveals our weakness and need for God's grace. It helps to show us for who we really are and points to Christ, and our need for Him in whom the Law was fulfilled.

That's where you're wrong. The LAW is not to reveal our weakness, it reveals SIN. If, then, the LAW reveals sin, to do otherwise IS TO SIN.
(pardon the caps, but you're really confused on what the law is)

Romans 3:3 - "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh"

Paul is clear of the law's intent in Galatians 3:

• 19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
  20Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
  21Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
  22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
  23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
  24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
  25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
  26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
  27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

It also continues to be important to those who remain under it, and who will therefore be judged by it. There are two ways to God: Keeping to the old convenant which was based on observing God's law 100%, or by accepting our failure to live up to God's law and placing our faith in Christ and hope in His promise.

Once again you are fully wrong. Please give scripture for anyone EVER keeping the old covenant and thus being saved by it. NEVER. What does Paul say of Abraham?? I think you know. They were required to keep the "code" of circumcision and all that went with the law of Moses...never was God's law done away with. Paul even plainly states this in Romans. You're a much more intelligent person than I am, but it baffles me that something so simple is twisted so much.

You make my point precisely. Except Christ, noone has ever fulfilled the Law. However, that does not mean the old still exists for those who remain under it and wish to be judged by it. For those who are in Christ, the requirements of the old covenant (ten commandments), law, etc have been fulfilled.

Now I do not care to win a debate here. You've been on this board since the beginning, and have been a long-standing member. If I wanted you gone for your beliefs, as you keep alluding to, I would have done so certainly back in 2005. So you seem to have a misconception about my desire for you here. Rather, I have a great concern for you. I think your beliefs question the very fabric of the gospel - to not believe the old covenant (ten commandments) was fulfilled in Christ, and that when we place our faith in Christ, we are clothed in His righteousness. To then say we must still keep them is to deny the saving power of Christ. The seriousness of this, is not of my own thinking, but drawn out by Paul himself to the Galations. Paul has the same concern to the Galatians that I do for you:

• 1Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,
  2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
  3So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.
  4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
  5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
  6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
  7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
  8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
  9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
  10You observe days and months and seasons and years.
  11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain. (Galatians 4)

Why does Paul fear for them? For surely if the Galatians accepted Paul's original message of being saved by faith in Christ and clothed with His righteousness, they would not turn back to the Law to be enslaved/obligated to it any longer. He fears that they are as before he came to them - still in their sins before God because they look to the law rather than placing faith in Christ. Further on in Galatians 5 he writes:

• 1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
  2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
  3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
  4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
  5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
  6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Circumcision was a sign of willingness to cut off from sin and live righteously according to God's law. Which do you want Bav? To be have freedom in Christ and be led by the Spirit, or be enslaved to the law and the flesh? There is only one way we can be empowered to live more and more righteously, and I can tell you know it is nothing at all to do with us, and everything to do with God.

31:14 has 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.' Do you believe this should be followed? If not, then when was this jot removed? On the otherhand, I think the following passage explains perfectly why we are no longer bound to Exodus 31:14 and the rest of God's Law:

If you wish to cast the first stone, then so be it. It's much like how God told Adam and Eve about the Tree, "for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die."
The pronouncement of death, while it may've been carried out in the OT word for word, is a pronouncement of ultimate Judgement. God will judge those that desecrate HIS DAY.

And yet, despite your believing I will be judged for descecrating "HIS DAY", you believe we still are saved by entirely by our faith in Christ and not at all by observing the law? Can you not see that these are two polar opposite beliefs? Do you not understand Paul's fear for the Galatians?

• 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)

I love this. First of all the context is CIRCUMCISION. Where in God's 10 is circumcision? Second...if you're going to do away with the Sabbath, then ALL of the "code" is gone (since you equate "code" with God's 10) Thirdly, and quite telling too, WHICH one of the 10 "regulations" stood against us and why? The Cross triumphed over God's HOLY, RIGHTEOUS, and TRUE Law as to do away with it? I think Paul disagrees with your interpretation of "doing away". If so, then it's not so holy, righteous and true is it.

Circumcision began with God's covenant made with Abram (Genesis 17:10-14). As expressed in Scripture, circumcision showed a willingness to follow God and be obedient to Him (Deuteronomy 10:16, Leviticus 26:40-42). Uncircumcision represented sinfulness. Thus, Paul is telling the Colossians that where they were dead in their sins - the "uncircumcision of their sinful nature", God made them alive with Christ. Therefore, circumcision is not the context, but rather the gospel is the context. That is, the problem of sin and the hope Christ offers us.

Eat or Drink - where in the 10 is anything about eating or drinking?
Religious festivals - Where in the 10 is anything about religious festivals (notice the plural)?
New Moon - Where in the 10 is there anything about new moons celebrations?
a Sabbath day - There were many 'sabbaths' celebrated, yet only ONE Sabbath. The translators simply put a capital where it did not belong. Look up the original text.

And Christ, who is Lord of the Sabbath, provides rest to those who come to Him. (Matthew 11:28-30) We find an eternal rest in Christ (Hebrews 4) of which the "ONE" Sabbath you refer to was but a type.

For anyone further interested in a discussion on keeping the Sabbath, it was discussed quite thoroughly 5 years ago in the thread On keeping the Sabbath (and I'm sure several times since between Bavarian and other posters). This topics seems to be a favourite of yours Bavarian, and I hope you are not offended in my saying I'm really not interested to discuss this topic further with you as I feel I have really said all I've wanted to say in our previous discussions.

I know you're not interested in discussing. The tell-tale sign is you wont answer my question of whom you'll follow given an ultimatum...one that has been given already to many people in the past, even today (in some remote places) and will be in the future.

So again I'll ask a plain question; Whom will you follow in the end when given two to choose from?

I will not follow any man, whether a church or government, but rather my faith is in Christ and I am now led by the Spirit.

[Canuckster1127]

Well, the answer is rather simple (to me at least), and that is because the 10 commandments comprise (in whole or in part) the natural law that God has written in our hearts. It is through the use of reason that we know that to murder or to steal or to commit adultery is wrong, not because it was written on a tablet as a covenant between God and Israel. It is through the knowledge imprinted unto our conscience by our Creator that we know we are to worship Him and not because we are bound by a fulfilled covenant. Paul says exactly the same thing in Rom 2:14-15

I don't have a problem with that Byblos. As you note, the argument made by some, and I've seen Bav make it, that if the 4th command for Sabbath Keeping is now gone then that must mean that it's OK to Steal, Murder, Covet etc. That confuses what is God's Moral law with societal law. As you note as well, that ties into the beginning of Romans where Paul lays out the case moving toward Romans 8 where it's stated clearly that we are under grace now and the Spirit of God dwells within our hearts and guides us now as renewed and alive spirits brought forth by the power of God through Christ.

Are the principles and truth of the 10 commandments and even much of the OT law now therefore invalidated? No. As K and I and many others have said there is no question that there is wisdom and health in acting in accordance with the principle of taking a day of rest and frankly, whether that day is Saturday, Sunday or some other day is no longer the issue because we are no longer going to temple to visit God. God now dwells within us. We are the temple of God in our bodies. Every day is one in which we walk and are in fellowship with God.

Jesus has taken us beyond the external standard of the law and brought us from the position of slaves bound to try to hold to standards we can not humanly achieve, now to sons and daughters, or children of God who are under the redemption of Christ who has freed us from the standard of the law which was never able to save us and we now have the principles upon which the law was built, imprinted upon our hearts.

Legalism is uncomfortable with this in many cases and wants to reduce it down to something that can be tied to behavior. It's not easy to walk in freedom humanly speaking. We prefer to be able to reduce things to formulas. We prefer to have something like pointing to one group of people who worship corporately on Saturday and then pointing to another group of people who don't and then on the basis of that saying one group is "right" and the other group is "wrong". That illustrates in fact, I think, what part of the purpose of this system was when Israel was set apart from the other nations as God's chosen people. God called them to be separate. After Christ however, now all the gentiles are invited and brought into this new covenant if they enter in through Christ the need for this type of separation on the basis of national identity or outward practices like sabbath keeping are no longer necessary.

That's exactly what the Jerusalem council was about. That's exactly what the vision Peter had of the unclean animals descending from heaven was about. That's exactly what Roman's progression from Law to Grace is all about.

Attempting to take that freedom we have in Christ and the grace we live in and returning to the old patterns is certainly something we can use our freedom to do. I think it's sad to do. It amounts to putting old wine in new wineskins. But what is unconscionable to do is to bring about human pressure upon others to do the same thing by means of outward guilt, shame and trying to bring them back into conformity with something that has passed in terms of its effectiveness.

I'll state, as I think you have, I don't believe from what I have seen from Bav, that that is his desire, nor do I think he is attempting to make it an issue of salvation. I'm less concerned about the intent driving this type of argument than I am the principles at work and the impact that it can have on new believers or non-believers who are brought into the fold who then live in something less than the grace and freedom Christ has bought us.

I really am fine with those who wish to meet on Saturday or those who wish to meet on Sunday. Every day when Christ dwells within our hearts is holy. Scripture is clear that the early church gathered daily and even lived in places communally and broke bread together. I'll even state that I think Sunday worshippers can be just as prone to legalism in getting caught up in the idea that the day and the mode of worship are somehow more important than the presence of Christ. I see that a great deal as well, and of course, my recent journey away from institutional churches has subjected me to judgments from that quarter.

So, I don't have a problem with what you've said Byblos. I hope that helps to expand it out and perhaps further reconcile what we're saying.

blessings,

bart

[B. W.]

The issue is in keeping what Genesis 2:3 states — note it nowhere mentions Saturday. It mentions setting up a day in memorial, a holy set apart day memorial to rest on the seventh day. It does not indicate what the first day is or how to tell which day is the seventh, it only reminds us to set apart a seventh day... so does Ex 20:8

Sunday to Sunday is seven days

Wednesday to Wednesday is seven days

Saturday to Saturday is seven days

There is no violation to Genesis 2:3 in any of these. As a seventh day is observed and memorialized as the Lord desires.

If a person appeals to the Law of the Sabbath as Moses wrote about, what lunar day marked the seventh day since Saturday was not yet invented? To keep the Moses law — one must abide by all of it.

The Ten C's regarding the Sabbath is in memorial as Exodus 20:11 points out. Christian people do mark a seventh day for this and are keeping it, not to stay saved, nor as a mark of being better than thou, or anything else other than an act of selfless love to honor the Lord when they go to Church. You are heading off to Church, the kids are screaming, spouse complaining, but all make it to church and honor the day — it takes love to do this — love for God.

What Saturday Only people do, is condemn others not as themselves as not loving the Lord. This is an insult to us and demonstrates where the real lack of love comes from. For those Saturday Only people — praise God you worship on that day! Like the rest of us, we too honor the Lord every seven days - if only you'd see it...
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[Fitzlight]

If you at Jesus' reply to those that accused of breaking the Sabbath commandment you will see that He was making it clear that He wasn't. He was telling them that they were not following the Sabbath commandment as God/Jesus intented for them to. They were fallowing their own understanding of the commandment. God Jesus never at anytime broke the Sabbath commandment and He never commanded the keeping of any other sabbath. He always commanded the keeping of God/Jesus' Holy Commandments as did all the Apostles and I challange anyone to show me scripture where they say that we do not have to keep or strive to keep His Holy Commandments.
I do ask you why none of you will answer my simple questions? Why do you refuse to answer them and instead attack me by claiming that I am saying things which I have not said?
Is it because you have no answers to give? Is it because you are afraid? Is it because the only way you feel you can answer me is with attacks? Why do you not read my whole post?
I ask all of you once more these simple questions.
{1} Explain to me in what way are these commandments against us and contrary to us?
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

{2} By what laws do you convict anyone of sin?
{3} When did God/Jesus issue a commandment changing His Holy Sabbath from the Seventhday to the firstday and please show that commandment?
{4} Why did God/Jesus say that before there would be even the smallest change, as the dotting of an i or the crossing of a t made to His Holy Laws that these three things would happen first, heaven would pass away, earth would pass away and all prophecy would be fulfilled? And please tell me when these events have taken place so as to allow for the changing of His Holy Laws?
{5} Why does God/Jesus command the children of Israel to keep His Holy Seventhday Sabbath as a Mark to show that we are His people and He is our God who makes us Holy and He tells them that this is an eternal commandment.
{6} Do you not know that in order to be a child of God/Jesus you must also become a child of Israel by adoption? What does this scripture mean Rom. 9:4-8, "4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
{7} Why do you hate God/Jesus' Holy Seventhday Sabbath so much? If you keep the firstday sabbath by command,{Of Men} then why can you not keep God/Jesus' Holy Seventhday Sabbath by command, {Of God/Jesus}?
I will await your answers or your attacks which ever you feel to do.

[Fitzlight]

I have not been lead by the Holy Spirit of God/Jesus to keep any of the feast except the passover/last supper. I do need to do some study on that matter. Thank you for reminding me.

[Fitzlight]

Your are right. The Seventhday Sabbath is a memorial of God/Jesus creation of all things, but have you not studied this scripture, Exodus 31:13-17 and take careful notice of the word sign which is from the old Hebrew word { 'ôth } which also means Mark and the word perpetual which is also from the old Hebrew word { ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm } which also means, Time out of mind, time without end eternal. So that when Moses was given God/Jesus' commandments written in stone for the second time, as he broke the first two, God/Jesus made this change to the Seventhday Sabbath Memorial and made it His Holy Mark that we are His people and that He is our God who makes us Holy and this is an eternal Mark. This is the only commandment that God/Jesus makes such claims concerning. Why?

[Byblos]

If you at Jesus' reply to those that accused of breaking the Sabbath commandment you will see that He was making it clear that He wasn't. He was telling them that they were not following the Sabbath commandment as God/Jesus intented for them to. They were fallowing their own understanding of the commandment. God Jesus never at anytime broke the Sabbath commandment and He never commanded the keeping of any other sabbath. He always commanded the keeping of God/Jesus' Holy Commandments as did all the Apostles and I challange anyone to show me scripture where they say that we do not have to keep or strive to keep His Holy Commandments.
I do ask you why none of you will answer my simple questions? Why do you refuse to answer them and instead attack me by claiming that I am saying things which I have not said?
Is it because you have no answers to give? Is it because you are afraid? Is it because the only way you feel you can answer me is with attacks? Why do you not read my whole post?
I ask all of you once more these simple questions.
{1} Explain to me in what way are these commandments against us and contrary to us?
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

{2} By what laws do you convict anyone of sin?
{3} When did God/Jesus issue a commandment changing His Holy Sabbath from the Seventhday to the firstday and please show that commandment?
{4} Why did God/Jesus say that before there would be even the smallest change, as the dotting of an i or the crossing of a t made to His Holy Laws that these three things would happen first, heaven would pass away, earth would pass away and all prophecy would be fulfilled? And please tell me when these events have taken place so as to allow for the changing of His Holy Laws?
{5} Why does God/Jesus command the children of Israel to keep His Holy Seventhday Sabbath as a Mark to show that we are His people and He is our God who makes us Holy and He tells them that this is an eternal commandment.
{6} Do you not know that in order to be a child of God/Jesus you must also become a child of Israel by adoption? What does this scripture mean Rom. 9:4-8, "4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
{7} Why do you hate God/Jesus' Holy Seventhday Sabbath so much? If you keep the firstday sabbath by command,{Of Men} then why can you not keep God/Jesus' Holy Seventhday Sabbath by command, {Of God/Jesus}?
I will await your answers or your attacks which ever you feel to do.

Is this in response to a particular post or you just like to hear yourself talk? And evidently you haven't been doing any post reading yourself as your questions have been addressed. Please refrain from speech-making and answer or address specific posts.

[Fitzlight]

See if I have this right: The ten commandments or laws were in existence prior to being written on stone by God's finger. God was re-iterating what were already known laws and the most important everlasting laws. I can't imagine folks prior to Moses didn't know about these moral laws. Now the fact the fourth is the Sabbath (which is mentioned right at the beginning in Genesis) seems to lend weight to it's perpetual relevance. The stuff like circumcision, kosher, etc were not written on the stones, so these don't have the same significance.

I read an article about the 'days' that Paul was referring to in Romans and the Sabbath is never referred to as just 'day', so he was referring to the holy days or high days which as you point out were shadows of the things fufilled by Jesus:

http://www.colossians-2-16.com/romans-14-5.html

Paul says Heb 4:9: 'there remains then a Sabbath rest for the people of God'. An interesting article on this verse is here:

http://www.ucg.ca/booklets/ss/sabbath-rest.asp

From Fitzlight,
Catherine the other things you mention, circumcision, kosher laws are either of the Levitical laws or the laws of Moses they are not of God/Jesus' Holy Commandments.
Now as to the sabbath of rest for the people of God that you mentioned. Did you not take notice that He said that the Children of Israel were not allowed to enter into it because of unbelief. Hebrews 4:4-11, "4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Now ask yourself did not the children of Israel not keep the seventhday sabbath? If they did then they did indeed eter into that rest. SO what day of rest were they not allowed to enter into because of unbelief? What day of rest have we not entered into because of unbelief?
Jesus said this, "
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
The sabbath of rest being spoken of as another rest is one that is spiritual and of faith. One that looks to God/Jesus to meet all your needs each and every day. Why did Jesus use birds as an example? He said it was because they neither sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, they do not work. They have faith that He will feed them no matter what. Why did He use flowers as an example? It is because as He said they neither toil nor do they spin, they do not work and He says that Solomon in all his glory was never dressed as beautiful as they are because God/Jesus clothes them. Does this mean that we do not have to work? Of course not. It does mean that we need to stop worrying about such things as what we shall eat, what we shall drink and what we shall wear or any other thing. We are to have full faith in God/Jesus to give us these things that we have need of simple because He loves us. This is a spiritual rest that none of us has ever entered into, because if we had we would not have ulers and many other medical problems. The children of Israel were not allowed to enter into this rest because of unbelief nor have we also because of unbelief. Think on this, how are the children of God/Jesus going to servive the tribulation when they are not going to be allowed to buy or sell anything? How did the children of Israel servive the wilderness for 40 Years?
This is not speaking of another, new sabbath day, but another, different kind of sabbath of rest. One without fear, worry about anything because we shall have faith that God/Jesus is going to meet all our needs. We shall be at peace and we will be truly at rest and we can have this sabbath of rest right now if we only had the faith to enter in, but sadly we do not.

[BavarianWheels]

You seriously don't see a connection between circumcision and the 10 commandments?

That's right. Simply put, circumcision is not part of the 10. Notice the 10 were placed INSIDE the ark, and the regulations written by Moses (obviously directed by God) were placed OUTSIDE the ark?

Simple question. Why?
The answer is because THESE were the shadow of things to come...they would be nailed to the Cross and left as the 'old' covenant that NEVER was about keeping the Law for salvation. Salvation has always been from Christ, through Faith as Paul acknowledges.

All you've done here is ignore the multitude of scripture and early church father quotes that demonstrate your position to be completely missing the point.

Actually it is you and those that follow Man's traditions that ignore the whole of the scriptures of which they (the scriptures) are in harmony. God is not two-faced to give His Holy Law as a means of defining perfection, then tell his creation to ignore it. It is not to be ignored, but is to be written on the heart and followed in spirit because that is what the Spirit desires and what the sinful nature is hostile towards...like you.

Nothing more I can do Bav. You can be as frustrated with it as you like. I've listened to what you have to say and I've addressed it directly and all you've done is repeat yourself without directly addressing the scripture and early church understanding and practice that is dead set against your understanding.

I'm frustrated because even in this little blurb here you continue in promoting Man's interpretation and traditions over that of the scripture.

Unless you're Roman Catholic, you should be against early church understandings and practice. Isn't this one of the basics of Protestantism?

We've done this dance before. Perhaps your frustration finds some of its source in your unwillingness to address these clear statements in favor of limiting your argument to those portions of Scripture that by themselves can be constructed to support your cause. If that's all there was, you'd have a case. As it stands, you have to ignore one of the primary messages of the New Testament.

Not true. I've addressed all the texts of the Bible that even allude to this and shown how the context is not even of the 10, but of the code written apart from the 10. The primary message (that I believe you all understand, but miss one simple aspect of) is that simply because the Law was fulfilled in Christ does not nullify the Law. We are redeemed from the CURSE of the Law, not redeemed from upholding/keeping the Law as the Spirit does. (please go back and re-read the SCRIPTURES and don't rely on tradition and church practice to give you your theology.) Paul acknowledges this. Of course I have to repeat myself because you keep falling into the trap of equating the Law with the law. One is quite different than the other as evidenced of where it was placed...in the ark and outside of the ark. It's different because Paul upholds the Law. It is holy, righteous and true. It points to sin. It is what shows a being to be perfect or dead in sin. God's word is everlasting and He does not change. Circumcision is NOT PART OF GOD'S HOLY, RIGHEOUS AND TRUE LAW...hence why Paul can be concerned and fearful of the Galatians for wanting to follow the letter of the law in circumcision on one hand and on the other, uphold the law...ROMANS repeats this many times.

Like it or not, the 10 commandments and circumcision are part and parcel of the Old Covenant, equated scripturally and addressed clearly by the New. You're certainly free if you wish to take your freedom and return to the old if you wish, but it doesn't make you any more saved, any better a person or any more loved by God than any other brother or sister in Christ who exercises and lives in the freedom of the New Covenant.

Wrong. It's not part of the 10 and clearly differentiated by Paul himself.

If you want to go beyond that and stand in judgement of others then the message of Paul in Galatians is still applicable.

Galatians 5:11-12 - “But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!”

Harsh words, to be sure, but they're not mine.

Certainly harsh to anyone preaching CIRCUMCISION.

[BavarianWheels]

I think many are confusing what Bav is saying with what they think he's saying. To clarify to the best of my ability, he never once mentioned adherence to the law, he only referred to God's Commandments. Moreover, he never once related adherence to the commandments with salvation. In fact, he repeatedly stated our inability to keep the commandments 100% but his central point is that it does not negate our obligation to keep them, including the Sabbath. My only contention, therefore, with what he is saying is the Saturday vs. any other day issue. Otherwise, I am in full agreement with him.

You are correct, Byblos. The issue is Sabbath vs. any other day. Thank you for noticing. Maybe you understand my frustration in relaying this point when all I keep getting in return is that I'm promoting legalism. I'll now reply to Kurieuo.

I quoted Bav saying "God's Law" which to me refers to the entire Mosaic Law.

Bav, if you only intend the 10 commandments, then I must ask why the rest does not apply? Surely this is not just a matter of SDA taste and opinion?

The best way for you to understand is to study the reason why the 10 were placed in the ark vs. the code written by Moses placed outside of the ark. THEN read Romans carefully taking note the differentiating Paul clearly makes between the keeping of one vs. the other.

In any case, Scripture is clear the words of the covenant given to Israel were the 10 commandments (Exodus 34:27-28, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 9:9, 1 Kings 8:9,21, Exodus 31:16-18), so again I quote from Hebrews 8, as Bart has also quoted:

Sorry, the Law was clear from Creation. Please see where the Creator makes a certain day holy and then asks His people to REMEMBER to keep it, because He is Creator.

• 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
  
  8For finding fault with them, He says,
  "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
  WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
  WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
  9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
  ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
  TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
  FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
  AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
  10"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
  AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
  I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
  AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
  AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
  AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
  11"AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
  AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
  FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
  FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
  12"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
  AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
  
  13When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

If you would only read and understand...was the covenant bad or was it the people that were bad? What's new about the "new" covenant vs. the "old" covenant? It's all right there...if you would only read and understand..
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[BavarianWheels]

Amazingly enough, I find myself in agreement with much of what Bart stated above. So how is it that I find agreement with both Bav that we are to keep the 10 commandments (noting the Saturday vs. any other day worship difference), and with Bart that the 10 commandments are part and parcel of the old covenant that was fulfilled by and in Christ and, therefore, is not binding on Christians? (and no, I am not schizophrenic, I swear).

Well, the answer is rather simple (to me at least), and that is because the 10 commandments comprise (in whole or in part) the natural law that God has written in our hearts. It is through the use of reason that we know that to murder or to steal or to commit adultery is wrong, not because it was written on a tablet as a covenant between God and Israel. It is through the knowledge imprinted unto our conscience by our Creator that we know we are to worship Him and not because we are bound by a fulfilled covenant. Paul says exactly the same thing in Rom 2:14-15

"When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts.

So to conclude, I believe the Gospel teaches that we are to keep the 10 commandments, not because we are still under the law but because the law has been written in our hearts and we're able to discern it with reason. The same reason that tells us we can worship God on any day we darn well please.

I'm with you, Byblos! All the way up the the last part of which you then seem to think that the "new" covenant is that WE (sinful by nature, yet lead by the Spirit) can discern with reason. If we are to discern with reason, then by reason we would see that there is ONE holy day God expects time set aside. The rest is to work. Does that mean we cannot praise and worship God on those days? Certainly not, but to do away with THE DAY HE wants set aside?? Pretty brave idea from a created being.

It is not up to us to worship on "any day we darn well please." When has God allowed worship in any form the created pleases to give?
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[BavarianWheels]

The issue is in keeping what Genesis 2:3 states — note it nowhere mentions Saturday. It mentions setting up a day in memorial, a holy set apart day memorial to rest on the seventh day. It does not indicate what the first day is or how to tell which day is the seventh, it only reminds us to set apart a seventh day... so does Ex 20:8

Sunday to Sunday is seven days

Wednesday to Wednesday is seven days

Saturday to Saturday is seven days

There is no violation to Genesis 2:3 in any of these. As a seventh day is observed and memorialized as the Lord desires.

If a person appeals to the Law of the Sabbath as Moses wrote about, what lunar day marked the seventh day since Saturday was not yet invented? To keep the Moses law — one must abide by all of it.

The Ten C's regarding the Sabbath is in memorial as Exodus 20:11 points out. Christian people do mark a seventh day for this and are keeping it, not to stay saved, nor as a mark of being better than thou, or anything else other than an act of selfless love to honor the Lord when they go to Church. You are heading off to Church, the kids are screaming, spouse complaining, but all make it to church and honor the day — it takes love to do this — love for God.

What Saturday Only people do, is condemn others not as themselves as not loving the Lord. This is an insult to us and demonstrates where the real lack of love comes from. For those Saturday Only people — praise God you worship on that day! Like the rest of us, we too honor the Lord every seven days - if only you'd see it...

Ever hear of an event with Manna?

If the acceptable formula was One in Seven (any one) then there wouldn't be a Manna Miracle to show which ONE is the day, but a simple note that the people could discern a day to keep. Which way does Scripture tell us this went?
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