Morals without god/the bible

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Have you [atheist sweetadeline] read the whole bible? Have you read all the extra-biblical sources? Have you read all the non-Christian sources? Please, give me a resounding Yes to all of these ...

Each new proof of God's sovereignty didn't convince Pharaoh (see Exodus 5,6,7,8,9,10,11...) because his heart was hardened. Indeed, each new bit of evidence that God had everything in control was answered by more defiance on the part the Egyptian monarch.

Do you see the parallels between Pharaoh and this (or any) atheist?

FL

[sweetadeline112358]

Have you read all the extra-biblical sources? Have you read all the non-Christian sources?

Have you? No. This works both ways.

[sweetadeline112358]

Why do you think the Flying Spaghetti Monster is supposed to disprove the existence of God?

Because that is the premise of your argument....

No, this is not the premise of my argument. I was showing you the conclusion of one specific argument you made (localized to the context of that specific assertion). I wonder how you would have responded if I had listed a set of 3 entirely different entities out of the infinite list. I think the misunderstanding is one of context / scope. You can continue to frame this however you wish, but I am losing interest. I have no interest in being coerced to defend arguments or positions that are not my own.

[August]

Well, let's have your a posteriori proof that Jesus is God! You still have no presented it to me!

You have to make up your mind whether we are talking about the existence of Jesus (a man), or the existence of Jesus (a god-entity). Therein lies part of the confusion. Are we debating about a god, or a man? For you it's both, so there is ambiguity where you believe that if you justify the existence of a man, that automatically justifies the existence of a deity-like entity.

No ambiguity.

The aposteriori proofs of Jesus' deity are easily summarized in a progressive chain of evidence:
1. Historical evidence that such a person as Jesus existed
2. Prophecies referring to the Messiah, and their fulfillment
3. Evidence for the resurrection
4. The character of Christ and His claims of deity
5. The propositional argument of God becoming man
6. Reaching a conclusion based on the evidence from 1-5...Jesus was lying, crazy or God.

[DannyM]

Have you read all the extra-biblical sources? Have you read all the non-Christian sources?

Have you? No. This works both ways.

To my knowledge, Yes, I have. Post some extra-biblical and non-Christian sources for Jesus and I'll tell you truthfully whether or not I have read them. I'll ask again: Have you read all sources (to your knowledge) for Jesus? Have you weighed all the evidence? Do you think non-Christian sources would willingly describe Jesus as God? You really need to answer these questions if you are to avoid falling flat on your face.

[DannyM]

Have you [atheist sweetadeline] read the whole bible? Have you read all the extra-biblical sources? Have you read all the non-Christian sources? Please, give me a resounding Yes to all of these ...

Each new proof of God's sovereignty didn't convince Pharaoh (see Exodus 5,6,7,8,9,10,11...) because his heart was hardened. Indeed, each new bit of evidence that God had everything in control was answered by more defiance on the part the Egyptian monarch.

Do you see the parallels between Pharaoh and this (or any) atheist?

FL

Fl, are you likening my efforts to banging my head against a wall of bricks?

[Manfer84]

Have you [atheist sweetadeline] read the whole bible? Have you read all the extra-biblical sources? Have you read all the non-Christian sources? Please, give me a resounding Yes to all of these ...

Each new proof of God's sovereignty didn't convince Pharaoh (see Exodus 5,6,7,8,9,10,11...) because his heart was hardened. Indeed, each new bit of evidence that God had everything in control was answered by more defiance on the part the Egyptian monarch.

Do you see the parallels between Pharaoh and this (or any) atheist?

FL

Fl, are you likening my efforts to banging my head against a wall of bricks?

Ok. Just my two cents, but didn't God hardened the Pharaoh's heart? According to the Bible?

[Manfer84]

Well, let's have your a posteriori proof that Jesus is God! You still have no presented it to me!

You have to make up your mind whether we are talking about the existence of Jesus (a man), or the existence of Jesus (a god-entity). Therein lies part of the confusion. Are we debating about a god, or a man? For you it's both, so there is ambiguity where you believe that if you justify the existence of a man, that automatically justifies the existence of a deity-like entity.

No ambiguity.

The aposteriori proofs of Jesus' deity are easily summarized in a progressive chain of evidence:
1. Historical evidence that such a person as Jesus existed
2. Prophecies referring to the Messiah, and their fulfillment
3. Evidence for the resurrection
4. The character of Christ and His claims of deity
5. The propositional argument of God becoming man
6. Reaching a conclusion based on the evidence from 1-5...Jesus was lying, crazy or God.

The aposteriori proofs of Jesus' deity are easily summarized in a progressive chain of evidence:
1. Historical evidence that such a person as Jesus existed. Ok there's evidence, not much but enough to say he existed (Jesus as a Man)
2. Prophecies referring to the Messiah, and their fulfilment. Where are these prophecies besides the Bible? Any other references?
3. Evidence for the resurrection. What evidence besides the Bible?
4. The character of Christ and His claims of deity. What evidence besides the Bible?
5. The propositional argument of God becoming man. Again where besides the Bible.
6. Reaching a conclusion based on the evidence from 1-5...Jesus was lying, crazy or God.

For what I've read, most of your claims have the Bible as their only reference. Are there any non-biblical sources for any of this claims?. I've found some about Jesus (http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_extrabib.html) but not much else. Can you point me in the right direction?

[jlay]

This is a straw man.

You presume the bible is one book, when in fact that bible is a collection of 66 books, which includes prophetic writings alluding to the messiah, and eye witness testimony showing the fulfillment.

So, you built your argument with the preconceived notion that the bible is not reliable to answer such questions. You are saying in essence, that the evidence can't be evidence if it is the only evidence.

[Manfer84]

I know the Bible is composed of many book written at different points in history by different people and in some cases have been change over time. What I´m asking is if books that compose the Bible are the source and the evidence for the claims posted August or are there any other extra-bible sources?

[DannyM]

I know the Bible is composed of many book written at different points in history by different people and in some cases have been change over time. What I´m asking is if books that compose the Bible are the source and the evidence for the claims posted or are there any other extra-bible sources?

You already have a thread asking this question, and it was answered.

[Manfer84]

I know the Bible is composed of many book written at different points in history by different people and in some cases have been change over time. What I´m asking is if books that compose the Bible are the source and the evidence for the claims posted or are there any other extra-bible sources?

You already have a thread asking this question, and it was answered.

Thanks, I'll look for it.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Have you [atheist sweetadeline] read the whole bible? Have you read all the extra-biblical sources? Have you read all the non-Christian sources? Please, give me a resounding Yes to all of these ...

Each new proof of God's sovereignty didn't convince Pharaoh (see Exodus 5,6,7,8,9,10,11...) because his heart was hardened. Indeed, each new bit of evidence that God had everything in control was answered by more defiance on the part the Egyptian monarch.

Do you see the parallels between Pharaoh and this (or any) atheist?

FL

Fl, are you likening my efforts to banging my head against a wall of bricks?

Not really. What you - and others - are doing here is more like throwing pearls to swine. Matthew 7:6

All atheists are hostile towards God, some more than others. When it becomes obvious that an atheist's goal is to argue, not to learn, the best course is to ignore them. Each answer you give an overtly hostile atheist reinforces their sense of superiority over you.

FL

[zoegirl]

So was Saul....

You never know what seeds you are planting....you can't be so....determined to belive that all are sealed

[Kurieuo]

Have you [atheist sweetadeline] read the whole bible? Have you read all the extra-biblical sources? Have you read all the non-Christian sources? Please, give me a resounding Yes to all of these ...

Each new proof of God's sovereignty didn't convince Pharaoh (see Exodus 5,6,7,8,9,10,11...) because his heart was hardened. Indeed, each new bit of evidence that God had everything in control was answered by more defiance on the part the Egyptian monarch.

Do you see the parallels between Pharaoh and this (or any) atheist?

FL

Fl, are you likening my efforts to banging my head against a wall of bricks?

Ok. Just my two cents, but didn't God hardened the Pharaoh's heart? According to the Bible?

Doesn't the Sun harden clay?