Morals without god/the bible

[Kurieuo]

3. Evidence for the resurrection. What evidence besides the Bible?

Debates are good: RESURRECTION DEBATE: William Lane Craig & Bart D. Ehrman

Also, why should we be forbidden from treating the books of the Bible on their own as historical texts, then applying the same methods we do to any other historial text? Have you explored what can be drawn from these books and manuscripts if we do that, or do you just blanketly rule out anything in the Bible because some consider it a religious book? How does that make any sense.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You never know what seeds you are planting....you can't be so....determined to belive that all are sealed

There is a world of difference between a person who is curious (therefore: willing to understand) and someone who is being obstinate.

obstinate: 1: pertinatiously adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course: not yeilding to reason, arguments or other means... (-Merriam Webster Dictionary)

Can you - a teacher - teach an obstinate child? Can a stubborn person be reasoned? Can the unyielding yield?

Some unbelievers who post here seem forthright & honest (Manfer comes to mind.) As for the others...I think they have left the helm and are on autopilot.

FL

[Manfer84]

Have you [atheist sweetadeline] read the whole bible? Have you read all the extra-biblical sources? Have you read all the non-Christian sources? Please, give me a resounding Yes to all of these ...

Each new proof of God's sovereignty didn't convince Pharaoh (see Exodus 5,6,7,8,9,10,11...) because his heart was hardened. Indeed, each new bit of evidence that God had everything in control was answered by more defiance on the part the Egyptian monarch.

Do you see the parallels between Pharaoh and this (or any) atheist?

FL

Fl, are you likening my efforts to banging my head against a wall of bricks?

Ok. Just my two cents, but didn't God hardened the Pharaoh's heart? According to the Bible?

Doesn't the Sun harden clay?

I don´t understand that phrase, it's the sun “nature” to harden clay, is it God's nature to harden hearts?
What I understood from the Pharaoh's story is that every time Moses was about to convince him, God made his heart harden in order for the pharaoh to say no to him.
So by Fürstentum Liechtenstein post I would conclude that god is making me a stronger atheist. Or am I reading it wrong?

[Byblos]

So by Fürstentum Liechtenstein post I would conclude that god is making me a stronger atheist. Or am I reading it wrong?

God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh had already hardened his. God can use evil for a purpose, that doesn't mean he created evil.

So how much have you hardened your heart?

[B. W.]

...So by Fürstentum Liechtenstein post I would conclude that god is making me a stronger atheist. Or am I reading it wrong?

You would not be here if your heart was really concrete...
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[jlay]

If you want a hard heart, God will oblige.

[Manfer84]

So by Fürstentum Liechtenstein post I would conclude that god is making me a stronger atheist. Or am I reading it wrong?

God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh had already hardened his. God can use evil for a purpose, that doesn't mean he created evil.

So how much have you hardened your heart?

“God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh had already hardened his. God can use evil for a purpose, that doesn't mean he created evil.”

I don't understand this. What I think you are saying is because the Pharaoh had hardened his heart (in not letting the Jews go) God make it even harder?
So instead of softened the guy up so he would let “his” people go, he made him more resilient to do it?. Is that right or am I missing something?

And who said anything about evil?

[Byblos]

So by Fürstentum Liechtenstein post I would conclude that god is making me a stronger atheist. Or am I reading it wrong?

God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh had already hardened his. God can use evil for a purpose, that doesn't mean he created evil.

So how much have you hardened your heart?

I don't understand this. What I think you are saying is because the Pharaoh had hardened his heart (in not letting the Jews go) God make it even harder?
So instead of softened the guy up so he would let “his” people go, he made him more resilient to do it?. Is that right or am I missing something?

What I mean is that as an Omnipotent God, He foreknew from before creation that Pharaoh's heart will not soften so he used him appropriately.

And who said anything about evil?

My point is that God will use things to further his purpose. It doesn't necessarily mean He is the cause of them.

[jlay]

There is more than one view on what God did when He, 'hardened Pharaohs heart.'

There are some that take a literal interpretation that God, literally influenced the outlook and feelings of Pharaoh. Some would take exception to that. I'll leave that up to you to decide. But the answer will ultimately be decided by how your interpret this scripture. Not a bad topic for a thread.

In searching for God, He has made it clear in His word that He is evident enough for all to find. Yet, He is also mysterious enough, for anyone to dismiss and reject. And the difference is in the condition of the heart of the individual.

You've been asked a question, "So how much have you hardened your heart?"
What this is really asking, is how open are you, really, to submitting yourself to the faith that the bible is true, and that God revealed within, is real. Not so much that you just lay down in surrender. But, are you open to the idea that your entire world view could be torn down and replaced. Or, have you built up walls of resistance with questions that are loaded to deny a plausible answer. Atheism is replete with such things.

Everyone has questions. No one here would suggest that you simply abandon your brain. But often we encounter those who have built up straw men, or started with a faulty premise, and in doing so can not be satisfied. No answer will suffice, because the question sets them up for failure. The key is in the heart of the one questioning. Is it sincere, or antagonistic.

[B. W.]

So by Fürstentum Liechtenstein post I would conclude that god is making me a stronger atheist. Or am I reading it wrong?

God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh had already hardened his. God can use evil for a purpose, that doesn't mean he created evil.

So how much have you hardened your heart?

“God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh had already hardened his. God can use evil for a purpose, that doesn't mean he created evil.”

I don't understand this. What I think you are saying is because the Pharaoh had hardened his heart (in not letting the Jews go) God make it even harder?
So instead of softened the guy up so he would let “his” people go, he made him more resilient to do it?. Is that right or am I missing something?

And who said anything about evil?

You are dealing with God who knows everything about a person, every detail, before any person ever was. With this far reaching insight, he knew Pharaoh would ultimately reject God. Pharaoh's heart was already hard and God simply obliged him. That is what it means by God hardening Pharaoh's heart — he obliged him.

Foreknowing everything about him God raised him up for the purposes of his own will. Every person's heart is hard through sin. Pharaoh would not allow his heart to be changed by God and God hardened — obliged this - Then made a spectacle out of him. Pharaoh was not an automaton nor was he a puppet. He wanted nothing to with God and acted upon this. God can most certainly use such people for his own purposes without any inequity.

You are not Pharaoh. God foreknew you would be here — writing on this forum. What do you think he is trying to tell you? Oblige God by having him soften your heart as he did for many here writing to you this very day.
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[Kurieuo]

Doesn't the Sun harden clay?

I don´t understand that phrase, it's the sun “nature” to harden clay, is it God's nature to harden hearts?

Isn't it more the nature of clay, its moistness, the reason why it becomes hardened? The Sun is said to harden clay, however it's not necessarily the Sun's fault it becomes hardened, it is just so.

Likewise Pharaoh's heart was hardened because of his own nature, and God used that for His own purpose.

[Canuckster1127]

I've found it's generally better to take people one at a time. Just because someone seems hard and obstinate on the outside doesn't mean the inside isn't taking something in or that some change may tnot ake place in the future. Just because someone seems easy and amiable on the outside doesn't mean their heart is open and willing to change.

God never called upon us to judge whether unbelievers are worth the effort or not. He simply calls on us to sow the seed. We aren't even responsible for the result. It is the Holy Spirit who draws hearts toward God.

[Manfer84]

So by Fürstentum Liechtenstein post I would conclude that god is making me a stronger atheist. Or am I reading it wrong?

God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh had already hardened his. God can use evil for a purpose, that doesn't mean he created evil.

So how much have you hardened your heart?

“God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh had already hardened his. God can use evil for a purpose, that doesn't mean he created evil.”

I don't understand this. What I think you are saying is because the Pharaoh had hardened his heart (in not letting the Jews go) God make it even harder?
So instead of softened the guy up so he would let “his” people go, he made him more resilient to do it?. Is that right or am I missing something?

And who said anything about evil?

You are dealing with God who knows everything about a person, every detail, before any person ever was. With this far reaching insight, he knew Pharaoh would ultimately reject God. Pharaoh's heart was already hard and God simply obliged him. That is what it means by God hardening Pharaoh's heart — he obliged him.

Foreknowing everything about him God raised him up for the purposes of his own will. Every person's heart is hard through sin. Pharaoh would not allow his heart to be changed by God and God hardened — obliged this - Then made a spectacle out of him. Pharaoh was not an automaton nor was he a puppet. He wanted nothing to with God and acted upon this. God can most certainly use such people for his own purposes without any inequity.

You are not Pharaoh. God foreknew you would be here — writing on this forum. What do you think he is trying to tell you? Oblige God by having him soften our heart as he did for many here writing to you this very day.
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You may have a point there B.W. sounds kind of right; I was just puzzled by the whole Pharaoh thing because I read it not so long ago and the phase Exodus10:20 “But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.” Sounded to me like God was making the Pharaoh say no. Guess I misinterpreted the verse.

Of course I'm not Pharaoh, but it would be cool right? He must've had some pretty nice perks. (JOKE!)

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Of course I'm not Pharaoh, but it would be cool right? He must've had some pretty nice perks. (JOKE!)

Perks? Oh yeah! one of the perks was that he had to marry his sister and make babies with her...yuck!

Another perk was that you knew you were divine - a god! - and here lies a hint as to why Pharaoh's heart would be hardened by God: if you knew you were divine, if your society and priests recognized you as divine, what would you think of Moses' request? Moses, the head of a bunch of enslaved brick-makers - Losers! - comes to you and insists that your Divine Majesty allow him to take all your hebrew subjects into the desert to worship another god. The God of the Losers even has the audacity to threaten you with plagues!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course, Pharaoh's heart would be hardened. It was hardened by Pharaoh's own contempt of God's people, God's prophet, and God's request. Now you will be able to understand this metaphore:

Doesn't the Sun harden clay?

As the same sun will harden clay and soften ice cream, the same God will harden the unrepentant heart and soften the believer's heart. Your attitude towards God makes the difference.

FL

[sweetadeline112358]

POTENTIAL ENTITIES most definitely implies - potential as meaning non-existent. Don't mince words...

No, potential as in the class of things that can't be guaranteed to not exist. I understand what you are saying; I was trying to paraphrase the concept another way (here I was trying for less formality). The most precise phrasing would probably be “entities that exist or do not exist”. That's a really really long list though, and that's what I want to get at. This is why we all rely on a posteriori reasoning, despite the limitations.

The rest of this particular message I won't address, since it's actually hilarious to me the way you have framed this (that my entire world-view is entirely a priori). I don't think that the good feelings you get when you go to church or read the Bible are really accurate examples of “knowledge derived from the senses”.