Jesus Death

[Manfer84]

I already answered as straight as it can be answered. I'll say it again:
THE ACTION HAS MEANING. NEVER SAID IT DIDN'T HAVE MEANING. JUST HOW MEANINGFULL IS IT.
"What kind of person would say they don't have meaning?” No one. I'm talking about the meaning given to the action.
Is that a straight answer? Because if not I don't know what to say.

“Yes you are talking about a being capable of anything. If God is real, what are you in perspective? Seriously. A spec on a spec, that last a blip of time in an ocean of vastness. Yet, this God is intimately concerned with you, and knows the number of hairs on your head”.
What's amazing about this? That a being that knows everything about everything, knows everything about me?

I don´t understand that saying: “You are what we say, straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.”

About the forsaken part, I thought we had a basically common definition of the word, I was wrong, didn't mean to imply I had the final saying on the matter.

But like I said already “Maybe you guys are right, maybe I'm the one not seeing the value of the action, but this is an issue I see a lot of atheist (if not all) have with the Jesus story (if they get past the posible existence of the Christian God), so that's why I'm being so thorough (again not sure this is the right word).”

I'm going to work on site so i'll answer in a few hours, hope to keep hearing from you.

[DannyM]

For example:
Action one: I give my girlfriend a rose for valentines; is it an action with meaning? Sure it is.

You reckon? Giving your girlfriend a rose on "valentines" has no meaning whatsoever; other than it "means" you are conforming to someone telling you you should give your girlfriend a rose for "valentines". Now, give your girlfriend a rose, when it is ENTIRELY your own idea and off of your own back, then yeah, that's meaningful... Sorry, it's not important to the topic, but wanted to get that off my chest

[B. W.]

What you need to know, Manfer, is that it wasn't just death...it was a death that meant that Christ bore the wrath of God that was meant for us.....us!! The wrath of God for sin. On the cross, Christ cries out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!" Our greatest need is to be reconciled with Christ....He paid the price in full.

Manfer84, please read the following

Romans 5:6, 7, “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.”

Romans 5:8, 9, “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.”

Romans 5:10, 11, “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.” NASB

Now Re-read jlay's and zoe's post:

Well let's see. The King and creator of the universe, The UNIVERSE, gave up His throne, to become a man like you, live on this earth without once sinning, then was arrested, beaten, humiliated and died the death of a criminal to pay the penalty of YOUR sin, and the sins of the world, so that you, an otherwise insignificant being on a spec of dust in the known universe, could have an eternal relationship with this creator, and inherit all the promises of His Kingdom….Your problem? You don't know you are starving.

What you need to know, Manfer, is that it wasn't just death...it was a death that meant that Christ bore the wrath of God that was meant for us.....us!! The wrath of God for sin. On the cross, Christ cries out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!" Our greatest need is to be reconciled with Christ....He paid the price in full.

Let me add to what they are both saying. There is a reason why the wrath of God lays heavily upon humanity and it was what happened to Jesus that exposes this very reason.

Jesus was betrayed, lied about, put on trial, falsely accused, spat upon, mocked, beaten, a crown of sharp thrones crammed into his head, whipped, stripped naked, nails driven into his hands and feet, his clothes divided and gambled over, derided, laughed at, made a spectacle of, tempted to act unjustly, chortled with contempt…

What is being shown here? One, what humanity really thinks of God as well as how we treat each other. We may not physically crucify people but oh how we mock, belittle, betray, gamble for others possessions, how we put on trial, in our minds or with our word beat, scourge others.

And what would we do with God if he were to appear? Put him on trial if we could, are you not doing so? Demand him to perform something so you would believed? Mock him? Put him to death for all the unfairness of the world due to our actions — not his? How often have you derided God? Gamble away the clothes he wants to give you? How we strip him from our public square, whip him with our words, and jam a thorny crown of contemptuous contempt for being such an evil God for letting bad things happen. How we falsely accuse God, seeking words that will entrap him so we can say ah ah there is no God!

For that: “… God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.” Romans 5:8-9

Can you see why the wrath of God lays heavily upon humanity? How many various ways and degrees do we treat others like how Jesus was treated? How many people do we let down, betray, lie about, swindle, tear down, put on trial, determine what value they are, demand from them, which in effect nullifying any good we think we may have?

“But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way...” Romans 3:5 ESV

Could you — would you lay down your life to expose what sin is in order to save a bunch of people who lie about you, put you on trial, falsely accuse you, spit upon you, mock you, beat you, place a crown of sharp thrones jammed into your head, whip, strip you naked, drive nails into your hands and feet, have your clothes and possessions divided and gambled over, deride and laughed at, be made a spectacle of, tempt you to act unjustly, chortled you with constant contempt — would you die for such a people in order to show them the error of their ways? To save them from wrath that is justified in coming?

“For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.” Romans 5:10-11

To change a few internally out of such darkness, transform their lives and make them new creations? Adopt them as sons and daughters? I say a few because most want to remain in darkness thinking it be light. Would you do this for the few who would see the means by which the wrath of God is averted? Still permitting a choice to all, despite knowing many will use this very choice to always reject, mock, deride you - are you that just - equitious?

Would you do this for such an ungrateful people who only have contempt, doubt, and hate in their hearts for you?

John 3:16, 17, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”

John 3:18, 19, "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 3:20, 21, “For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NKJV

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[jlay]

I already answered as straight as it can be answered. I'll say it again:
THE ACTION HAS MEANING. NEVER SAID IT DIDN'T HAVE MEANING. JUST HOW MEANINGFULL IS IT.
"What kind of person would say they don't have meaning?” No one. I'm talking about the meaning given to the action.
Is that a straight answer? Because if not I don't know what to say.

And I have explained that as the recipient it has the value of your eternity. If in fact eternity is at stake, please tell me what can be more meaningful than this?

“Yes you are talking about a being capable of anything. If God is real, what are you in perspective? Seriously. A spec on a spec, that last a blip of time in an ocean of vastness. Yet, this God is intimately concerned with you, and knows the number of hairs on your head”.
What's amazing about this? That a being that knows everything about everything, knows everything about me?

I'll answer that with a question. "Who am I that God is mindful of me?" We are not talking about whether he knows you exist. We are talking about whether he wants to KNOW you personally. Huge difference my friend. Surely you can see this. When my daughter was born we got a letter from the President of USA acknowledging her birth. What if he had delivered it in person? Quite a difference.
Christ, the cross, etc. is about redeeming YOU. God doesn't need redeeming, you do. God is meeting YOU.
What do you have to offer God? What do you bring to the table? If we are honest, the answer is, nothing. And yet, His desire is to KNOW you and save you.

I don´t understand that saying: “You are what we say, straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.”

You are missing the infinately larger issue at hand, by focusing on something else. You are the RECIPIENT. I understand what you are saying. You are saying that Christ's death on the cross really isn't that meaningful because God can do anything, and so nothing was really in doubt. However, that is an opinion, and it fails to offer proof that God's actions lack meaning, or enough meaning to satisfy you. It doesn't change what God did. It doesn't change what it accomplishes and it certainly doesn't change the value that it holds for you, if it is true. And like the person who gets their debt paid off, or receives the life preserver, you are saying, "I just don't see what the big deal is." Does your life have value? Then be honest enough to look at this through the right perspective. The prespective of one who is drowning and needs a life preserver. One who is in a sea of debt he can not pay. You admit that, "no one," would say such a thing. But it seems to me you are. Whether you want to quibble over the amount of meaning or not.

About the forsaken part, I thought we had a basically common definition of the word, I was wrong, didn't mean to imply I had the final saying on the matter.

Really is a different topic anyway. Forsake simply means abandon. One could ask the question, did God really forsake Christ? But its a different topic.

But like I said already “Maybe you guys are right, maybe I'm the one not seeing the value of the action, but this is an issue I see a lot of atheist (if not all) have with the Jesus story (if they get past the posible existence of the Christian God), so that's why I'm being so thorough (again not sure this is the right word).”

No problem.

[Manfer84]

For example:
Action one: I give my girlfriend a rose for valentines; is it an action with meaning? Sure it is.

You reckon? Giving your girlfriend a rose on "valentines" has no meaning whatsoever; other than it "means" you are conforming to someone telling you you should give your girlfriend a rose for "valentines". Now, give your girlfriend a rose, when it is ENTIRELY your own idea and off of your own back, then yeah, that's meaningful... Sorry, it's not important to the topic, but wanted to get that off my chest

I'm sorry I don't undestand what you meant by "when it is ENTIRELY your own idea and off of your own back, then yeah, that's meaningful".. And for the record it did mean something to her, unless she lied to me about it

[Manfer84]

B.W.

“Could you — would you lay down your life to expose what sin is in order to save a bunch of people who lie about you, put you on trial, falsely accuse you, spit upon you, mock you, beat you, place a crown of sharp thrones jammed into your head, whip, strip you naked, drive nails into your hands and feet, have your clothes and possessions divided and gambled over, deride and laughed at, be made a spectacle of, tempt you to act unjustly, chortled you with constant contempt — would you die for such a people in order to show them the error of their ways? To save them from wrath that is justified in coming?”

If after all that I know I would be OK and probably a lot better than I was before, I would think about it and yeah probably do it. People scarify themselves without any reward after, so having one I think would make things a lot easier.

[Manfer84]

Jlay

I don't have anything to offer God. He already knows everything so I don't know that anyone has something to offer God. What can you offer a being that has the power to do everything and anything? Your free will? He gave that to you so why would he need it? Your love? He also made that. So what can mortal men offer an omni-everything being?

You bring up the value of life under God's eyes right? So if I value my life I should value what God did to preserve it?
That's a huge problem I have with the whole God idea, I think it's the main problem, why would you value something that's so easily made (God creating everything). Would you value a dot on a piece of paper if Picasso made it? Or value a gold medal won by a world chess champion vs. a dog? When something is done without any effort what so ever, how valuable can that thing/action be?

You may be right in saying that I've become to “hard”, believe or not it's not something I planned it just sort of happened. I never read any atheist book until maybe 6 months ago, so I'm in no way opposed to the idea of there being a God, It wouldn't destroy my way of life if he turned out to exist. My life didn't change one bit when I stopped believing God existed. I've never had a need for God or any supreme being and sometimes I don't understand why people do.

[Gabrielman]

I don't have anything to offer God. He already knows everything so I don't know that anyone has something to offer God. What can you offer a being that has the power to do everything and anything? Your free will? He gave that to you so why would he need it? Your love? He also made that. So what can mortal men offer an omni-everything being?

Right there you mentioned what God wants and the very meaning behind why He made living beings to begin with, your love. Yes He made love, but He cannot forcefully make you give Him love, what would be the point? He wants us to love Him because wee want to, not becuase He is forcing us to. He wants true genuine love. He made us to love Him and visa-verse.

You bring up the value of life under God's eyes right? So if I value my life I should value what God did to preserve it?
That's a huge problem I have with the whole God idea, I think it's the main problem, why would you value something that's so easily made (God creating everything). Would you value a dot on a piece of paper if Picasso made it? Or value a gold medal won by a world chess champion vs. a dog? When something is done without any effort what so ever, how valuable can that thing/action be?

Does the Bible say that the earth and universe were easy? Did it say how hard he had to work to make the universe? No, it did not. He did all of this so we could have a place to dwell, he made an entire universe for us to enjoy and explore with Him. He even forgave us ours sins when we rebelled so that we could still be with Him even though we deliberately disobeyed Him. He works day in and out on every one and every thing, now that is effort my friend. How do you know that things are so easy for Him? Where in the Bible does it say that He is having a good time. Emotionally it is very hard for Him cause he has to watch His own children whom He loves more than anything willing hate Him and wish not to be with Him. How would you feel if your children did that? (assuming you have them, if not then just go with me on this) What would you feel if you put in all this time and effort all of it just for them, and you loved them more than anything else, and they just up and betrayed you and didn't love you even though you freely loved them? Now imagine that you were willing to forgive them if they just loved you and they didn't want it just becuase they didn't want to love you, how would that make you feel? Would it not be hard to watch your own kids through themselves into eternal damnation?

[DannyM]

For example:
Action one: I give my girlfriend a rose for valentines; is it an action with meaning? Sure it is.

You reckon? Giving your girlfriend a rose on "valentines" has no meaning whatsoever; other than it "means" you are conforming to someone telling you you should give your girlfriend a rose for "valentines". Now, give your girlfriend a rose, when it is ENTIRELY your own idea and off of your own back, then yeah, that's meaningful... Sorry, it's not important to the topic, but wanted to get that off my chest

I'm sorry I don't undestand what you meant by "when it is ENTIRELY your own idea and off of your own back, then yeah, that's meaningful".. And for the record it did mean something to her, unless she lied to me about it

So let me get this straight. You "question" whether Jesus' sacrifice was meaningful (you disregarded the "good deed" done in your "buffet" analogy as "meaningless," thus implying Jesus' sacrifice was meaningless), yet you regard an "act of love," dictated to you by society, as "meaningful"?

[Manfer84]

I don't have anything to offer God. He already knows everything so I don't know that anyone has something to offer God. What can you offer a being that has the power to do everything and anything? Your free will? He gave that to you so why would he need it? Your love? He also made that. So what can mortal men offer an omni-everything being?

Right there you mentioned what God wants and the very meaning behind why He made living beings to begin with, your love. Yes He made love, but He cannot forcefully make you give Him love, what would be the point? He wants us to love Him because wee want to, not becuase He is forcing us to. He wants true genuine love. He made us to love Him and visa-verse.

You bring up the value of life under God's eyes right? So if I value my life I should value what God did to preserve it?
That's a huge problem I have with the whole God idea, I think it's the main problem, why would you value something that's so easily made (God creating everything). Would you value a dot on a piece of paper if Picasso made it? Or value a gold medal won by a world chess champion vs. a dog? When something is done without any effort what so ever, how valuable can that thing/action be?

Does the Bible say that the earth and universe were easy? Did it say how hard he had to work to make the universe? No, it did not. He did all of this so we could have a place to dwell, he made an entire universe for us to enjoy and explore with Him. He even forgave us ours sins when we rebelled so that we could still be with Him even though we deliberately disobeyed Him. He works day in and out on every one and every thing, now that is effort my friend. How do you know that things are so easy for Him? Where in the Bible does it say that He is having a good time. Emotionally it is very hard for Him cause he has to watch His own children whom He loves more than anything willing hate Him and wish not to be with Him. How would you feel if your children did that? (assuming you have them, if not then just go with me on this) What would you feel if you put in all this time and effort all of it just for them, and you loved them more than anything else, and they just up and betrayed you and didn't love you even though you freely loved them? Now imagine that you were willing to forgive them if they just loved you and they didn't want it just becuase they didn't want to love you, how would that make you feel? Would it not be hard to watch your own kids through themselves into eternal damnation?

I know this may be sent the conversation in other direction but you ask:
“Does the Bible say that the earth and universe were easy? Did it say how hard he had to work to make the universe?”
Isn't this implied when God is describe as all-powerful, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal, outside of time, and all the other things? Doesn't he have unlimited power? If not when is it gonna run out? When is he gonna get so tired he's not gonna be able to do anything? Can that happen?

I don´t think the whole universe is “just here for us” I think that's kind of selfish.

And then if something is emotionally hard for God it's because he wants it to be like that. After all he created everything knowing already what would happen. As they say in my country if you gave yourself a rash don´t complain that it itches.

It would be hard for me to see my children go into eternal damnation, because I'm powerless to do anything about it. But God isn't so I don't know how hard it can be for him if he has the power to stop it anytime he wants.

[Manfer84]

For example:
Action one: I give my girlfriend a rose for valentines; is it an action with meaning? Sure it is.

You reckon? Giving your girlfriend a rose on "valentines" has no meaning whatsoever; other than it "means" you are conforming to someone telling you you should give your girlfriend a rose for "valentines". Now, give your girlfriend a rose, when it is ENTIRELY your own idea and off of your own back, then yeah, that's meaningful... Sorry, it's not important to the topic, but wanted to get that off my chest

I'm sorry I don't undestand what you meant by "when it is ENTIRELY your own idea and off of your own back, then yeah, that's meaningful".. And for the record it did mean something to her, unless she lied to me about it

So let me get this straight. You "question" whether Jesus' sacrifice was meaningful (you disregarded the "good deed" done in your "buffet" analogy as "meaningless," thus implying Jesus' sacrifice was meaningless), yet you regard an "act of love," dictated to you by society, as "meaningful"?

I'll say it again because I don't know why you guys keep bringing it up.
I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS MEANINGLESS, I ASK HOW MEANINGFULL WAS IT? DON'T YOU UNDERSTANT THE DIFERENCE?
I don't know how much straight I can put it. Sorry.

[Gabrielman]

It would be hard for me to see my children go into eternal damnation, because I'm powerless to do anything about it. But God isn't so I don't know how hard it can be for him if he has the power to stop it anytime he wants.

God is powerless to stop us in a way, He can't force us to be with Him if we don't want to be becuase what would be the point? He wants us to be with Him willingly and if He forced us to stop us from going away from Him (which is hell and an entirely different discussion on what hell is) then would we be loving Him because we want to and be with Him because we want to or would we be forced against our will to suffer being with someone we didn't want to? He can't force us to heaven, He can only offer it as a free gift we can accept.

And then if something is emotionally hard for God it's because he wants it to be like that. After all he created everything knowing already what would happen. As they say in my country if you gave yourself a rash don´t complain that it itches.

It is hard for Him becuase His children are going to hell becuase they don't want to be with Him and He can't force them into it, He didn't make it hard for Himself, it is hard though becuase we are going against Him and He loves us and doesn't want us to leave Him. Again, imagine if your kids did that to you, would it not be emotionally hard for you?

I don´t think the whole universe is “just here for us” I think that's kind of selfish.

That all depends on your point of view, He did make it all to sustain life in certain parameters so that we could live, so thus I see it as though He did it all for us, why else would He do it?

Isn't this implied when God is describe as all-powerful, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal, outside of time, and all the other things? Doesn't he have unlimited power? If not when is it gonna run out? When is he gonna get so tired he's not gonna be able to do anything? Can that happen?

God has unlimited power, yes, in a sense, He can't do some things though. He can't contradict Himself so He is limited in that way. Not sure if He will ever run out of power, but it can't be easy to make an entire universe no matter how powerful you are. That is something we would have to ask Him about.

I'll say it again because I don't know why you guys keep bringing it up.
I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS MEANINGLESS, I ASK HOW MEANINGFULL WAS IT? DON'T YOU UNDERSTANT THE DIFERENCE?
I don't know how much straight I can put it. Sorry.

For example:
Action one: I give my girlfriend a rose for valentines; is it an action with meaning? Sure it is.

You reckon? Giving your girlfriend a rose on "valentines" has no meaning whatsoever; other than it "means" you are conforming to someone telling you you should give your girlfriend a rose for "valentines". Now, give your girlfriend a rose, when it is ENTIRELY your own idea and off of your own back, then yeah, that's meaningful... Sorry, it's not important to the topic, but wanted to get that off my chest

I'm sorry I don't undestand what you meant by "when it is ENTIRELY your own idea and off of your own back, then yeah, that's meaningful".. And for the record it did mean something to her, unless she lied to me about it

So let me get this straight. You "question" whether Jesus' sacrifice was meaningful (you disregarded the "good deed" done in your "buffet" analogy as "meaningless," thus implying Jesus' sacrifice was meaningless), yet you regard an "act of love," dictated to you by society, as "meaningful"?

I'll say it again because I don't know why you guys keep bringing it up.
I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS MEANINGLESS, I ASK HOW MEANINGFULL WAS IT? DON'T YOU UNDERSTANT THE DIFERENCE?
I don't know how much straight I can put it. Sorry.

It was more meaningful than anything else. Christs sacrifice means that though we are evil and sinners, and that we have willingly gone against God, that God is willing to look past all of that and offer us the free gift of Salvation through His blood and then a free gift of an eternal paradise with Him. It is a relationship that He offers to all of us through that sacrifice, it's love, its peace of mind. It has very deep meaning that words cannot describe. Why is it so meaningful? Because instead of God letting us choose our fate, He could just force us all into Heaven, or he could just destroy us all and then make new more obedient people, but instead He loves us so much that He is willing to let us choose weather or not we want to be with Him. If you had the power to do one of those three what would you do? He did things the hard way. He loves us so much that He didn't just get rid of us all or force us all with Him, instead He gave us another chance, a way to be with Him if we so choose to take it.

[Manfer84]

Gabrielman:
He can do it, he can force us to heaven or dammed us to hell; he can do anything. He chooses not to do it, but he can. From what I understand, there is nothing God can´t do. And if you are all-powerful of course everything is easy. If your strength was infinite would you find something in the universe that was hard to pick up?

“It is hard for Him becuase His children are going to hell becuase they don't want to be with Him and He can't force them into it”
If you see your son do something that you know is gonna destroy him, wouldn't you stop him no matter what? Even force him to stop if you have to?

I don´t know why he “created” the universe? If in fact he did it. Does it matter?

[Gabrielman]

Gabrielman:
He can do it, he can force us to heaven or dammed us to hell; he can do anything. He chooses not to do it, but he can. From what I understand, there is nothing God can´t do. And if you are all-powerful of course everything is easy. If your strength was infinite would you find something in the universe that was hard to pick up?

“It is hard for Him becuase His children are going to hell becuase they don't want to be with Him and He can't force them into it”
If you see your son do something that you know is gonna destroy him, wouldn't you stop him no matter what? Even force him to stop if you have to?

I don´t know why he “created” the universe? If in fact he did it. Does it matter?

No He can't force us into heaven, that would not be loving if He were to force us to be with Him if we didn't want to. Let me put it like this. Let's say you are homeless and you I offer you a place to stay in my house forever and all you have to do is accept it. Now if you say yes and you want it then you can come on in. But let's say you say no, and I say "that doesn't matter you are coming in anyway" and I force you into my house and keep you there, you are now a prisoner, not a guest or someone who is there becuase they want to be. Now would that be loving? If God forced you to stay in heaven even if you don't want to be there? He can't just throw us all into hell and start over, that would be unloving, and He can't just force us all into heaven because that would be unloving, instead He gives us a choice to be with Him for all eternity or to be alone without Him for all eternity, and that is more loving.

If I saw my son doing something harmful to himself then I would do what I could to help him out of it, but I would not make his decisions for him, I would not force him to accept my ways. Same scenario if he was homeless, I would not force him to be with me, that would not be loving and home, that would be prison. God will not force us to be with Him, or without Him, He is letting us choose which one we want to do. It saddens Him though that someone would turn down all of His love and all of His work He did, as it would you I am sure if you were in His position. He made us so someone would love Him, He was alone before that, and He loves us, and He wants us to love Him.

So far as the universe thing, it does matter, He did create it and He did it all for us to testify His love for us.

[Manipulate]

He allows us to go to Heaven correct? That's why it is very meaningful.