Jesus Death

[DannyM]

So let me get this straight. You "question" whether Jesus' sacrifice was meaningful (you disregarded the "good deed" done in your "buffet" analogy as "meaningless," thus implying Jesus' sacrifice was meaningless), yet you regard an "act of love," dictated to you by society, as "meaningful"?

I'll say it again because I don't know why you guys keep bringing it up.
I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS MEANINGLESS, I ASK HOW MEANINGFULL WAS IT? DON'T YOU UNDERSTANT THE DIFERENCE?
I don't know how much straight I can put it. Sorry.

Was Jesus sacrifice meaningful? I mean he knew he was gonna resurrect and live for all eternity as God (with him being God and all).
It's like giving a homeless guy your last sandwich knowing you have a whole buffet around the corner. It is just meaningless. Or can someone shine a different light on it?

IT'S LIKE GIVEING A HOMELIESS GUY YOUR LAST SANDWICH... IT IS JUST MEANINGLESS...

The implication is there, whether you like it or not. I'm not in the least put out by the implication; but rather you denying that which is implicit.

[Manfer84]

Gabrielman:
Based in what you have said, you would let your son kill himself. If he wants to since it's his will and you can´t force him to do yours.
Wouldn't you force him not to do it, and try, even if it takes all your strength, to make him not kill himself? Even if he hated you for it? You know better you know suicide is not the right choice so wouldn't you do anything and everything in your power, even force him to stop? Would you just allow him to do it just because it's his choice?

[Manfer84]

So let me get this straight. You "question" whether Jesus' sacrifice was meaningful (you disregarded the "good deed" done in your "buffet" analogy as "meaningless," thus implying Jesus' sacrifice was meaningless), yet you regard an "act of love," dictated to you by society, as "meaningful"?

I'll say it again because I don't know why you guys keep bringing it up.
I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS MEANINGLESS, I ASK HOW MEANINGFULL WAS IT? DON'T YOU UNDERSTANT THE DIFERENCE?
I don't know how much straight I can put it. Sorry.

Was Jesus sacrifice meaningful? I mean he knew he was gonna resurrect and live for all eternity as God (with him being God and all).
It's like giving a homeless guy your last sandwich knowing you have a whole buffet around the corner. It is just meaningless. Or can someone shine a different light on it?

IT'S LIKE GIVEING A HOMELIESS GUY YOUR LAST SANDWICH... IT IS JUST MEANINGLESS...

The implication is there, whether you like it or not. I'm not in the least put out by the implication; but rather you denying that which is implicit.

Well Danny M.
I apologize for not letting my point come across as I wanted to, what I meant, and have already rectify myself quite a few times is that every action has meaning but not all actions are equally meaningful.

[DannyM]

Well Danny M.
I apologize for not letting my point come across as I wanted to, what I meant, and have already rectify myself quite a few times is that every action has meaning but not all actions are equally meaningful.

No worries. I'm sorry I had to labour the point. So, do you think Jesus atoning for our sins is less meaningful than you giving your girlfriend a rose (on ANY day)?

[Gabrielman]

Gabrielman:
Based in what you have said, you would let your son kill himself. If he wants to since it's his will and you can´t force him to do yours.
Wouldn't you force him not to do it, and try, even if it takes all your strength, to make him not kill himself? Even if he hated you for it? You know better you know suicide is not the right choice so wouldn't you do anything and everything in your power, even force him to stop? Would you just allow him to do it just because it's his choice?

Yes, but God is doing everything He can to stop us, He is giving us all we need to be saved, we are just trying over and over again to kill ourselves . We are saying to God that we don't want to be with Him and He is accepting that, instead of forcing us with Him, would you like it if I took you into my house forcefully? And then made you stay there just because I wanted you to be there? That is the point I have been trying to make to you, would you like if I did that to you?

[zoegirl]

B.W.

“Could you — would you lay down your life to expose what sin is in order to save a bunch of people who lie about you, put you on trial, falsely accuse you, spit upon you, mock you, beat you, place a crown of sharp thrones jammed into your head, whip, strip you naked, drive nails into your hands and feet, have your clothes and possessions divided and gambled over, deride and laughed at, be made a spectacle of, tempt you to act unjustly, chortled you with constant contempt — would you die for such a people in order to show them the error of their ways? To save them from wrath that is justified in coming?”

If after all that I know I would be OK and probably a lot better than I was before, I would think about it and yeah probably do it. People scarify themselves without any reward after, so having one I think would make things a lot easier.

Really..?....think hard about this....on the surface your logic is sound....HOWEVER...

Just as anyone who has been tortured whether they would willingly be tortured if they knew that they would be ok after being tortured....


Think about the worst pain you have endured....getting a tooth drilled...spraining an ankle....whatever

Think about the worst rejection you have faced....girlfriend, friend.....

The pain, the feelings, are all REAL...and yet even if you new that you would survive and get back together or eventually feel better, you would still suffer terribly.

And the pain was immense http://the-crucifixion.org/crucifixion.htm worse than any torture we might be worried about

And the rejection!!!! to be forsaken by GOD!!

So was it meaningful from its suffering....absolutely!! '

So the only other question is....DID IT ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING? was it meaningful in that regard?

B.W's references satisfy that. The punishment for sin was death and separation from God. (that's as simple and as Awful as you can make it....by declaring ourselves GOd, we deserved to be separate from a relationship with Him)

From a judicial standpoint, when someone pays a fine...does that payment mean any less if the one paying it eventually is ok???

He paid for OUR sins by HIS death. He conquered death but that doesn't make HIs sacrifice any less meaningful. He ACCOMPLISHED what He set out to do. Redeem His flock.. (Praise Him!!!)

It's like giving a homeless guy your last sandwich knowing you have a whole buffet around the corner. It is just meaningless. Or can someone shine a different light on it?

Let me ask you this, Manfer. What would make it meaningful in your eyes? To have Christ die and that's that? He would not have conquered death were that to be. He died so that we may live!

[Dazed and Confused]

I'll say it again, the action has value, I see it, I just don´t think is that big of a deal (no offense) and I'm asking how valuable it is.

I haven't read all the comments here, so forgive me if I'm reiterating a previously stated perspective. I'm sure there have been those who have suffered as much physical pain, if not more, than Christ did on the cross. Perhaps some of the afflictions perpetrated by the Nazis on the Jews, these stories are horrendous. How about people who had been tortured for years in a dungeon during the inquisition. And let's not forget those who had been crucified in the same manner as Christ, yet took three days to die a slow painful death. So what makes Christ's pain and suffering so different form the rest of humanity. I would say first that he took all the wicked acts perpetrated within the world. Can you imagine this? I can't imagine even having to bare just a thousand peoples wicked acts, deeds and thoughts. And He did this for all mankind. All this placed on Him in a single instant. This has value. An extremely high value. A priceless value. An eternal value.

Then there is the fact that He was separated from the Father. This time frame is not definable. How long were they separated? Was it somehow infinite? Does it somehow have an eternal perspective for Christ? This is a mystery. I believe that even when we get to heaven we won't fully understand the price that He paid. To know and experience how God separated Himself is to be God. How can we know this? Anyways I like the question, sorry I can't elaborate further have to go to sleep, otherwise I might get separated from my job.

[Manfer84]

Well Danny M.
I apologize for not letting my point come across as I wanted to, what I meant, and have already rectify myself quite a few times is that every action has meaning but not all actions are equally meaningful.

No worries. I'm sorry I had to labour the point. So, do you think Jesus atoning for our sins is less meaningful than you giving your girlfriend a rose (on ANY day)?

Hahahaha Of course Jesus sacrifice means more than that.
But do to his divine nature; I think his sacrifice is less meaning than say a mother agreeing to die at childbirth in order for her son's to live.

[Manfer84]

Gabrielman:
Based in what you have said, you would let your son kill himself. If he wants to since it's his will and you can´t force him to do yours.
Wouldn't you force him not to do it, and try, even if it takes all your strength, to make him not kill himself? Even if he hated you for it? You know better you know suicide is not the right choice so wouldn't you do anything and everything in your power, even force him to stop? Would you just allow him to do it just because it's his choice?

Yes, but God is doing everything He can to stop us, He is giving us all we need to be saved, we are just trying over and over again to kill ourselves . We are saying to God that we don't want to be with Him and He is accepting that, instead of forcing us with Him, would you like it if I took you into my house forcefully? And then made you stay there just because I wanted you to be there? That is the point I have been trying to make to you, would you like if I did that to you?

Gabrielman:
First of all, you don't know what's gonna happen to the homeless guy if you don`t force him into your house, he may be fine on the street, well not fine but alive.
Now if there was a huge snowstorm outside and the homeless guy just wants to die out there, wouldn't you force him, even if he feels like in prison, to enter your house and save his life instead of letting him die just because he wants to? And now imagine you love that homeless guy, wouldn´t you use all your power, all of it!, to save him even dough he wants to die?

[jlay]

You bring up the value of life under God's eyes right? So if I value my life I should value what God did to preserve it?
That's a huge problem I have with the whole God idea, I think it's the main problem, why would you value something that's so easily made (God creating everything). Would you value a dot on a piece of paper if Picasso made it? Or value a gold medal won by a world chess champion vs. a dog? When something is done without any effort what so ever, how valuable can that thing/action be?

The reason it has value is because the one who created said, it has value. Period. I could go into lenghty explanations about currency and why it has value, but I'm tiring of analogies. Do you really think it is reasonable to compare a human life to a dot on a piece of paper? Those things are arbitrary. Using absurd comparisons to try and force your point, really doesn't demonstrate sincere thinking.

How does the 'effort' of God relate to value? Again, you have stated an opinion. But that isn't proof. You are saying, or appear to be saying, that effort is the determiner of value. Please provide some evidence to support such a notion.

It wouldn't destroy my way of life if he turned out to exist. My life didn't change one bit when I stopped believing God existed. I've never had a need for God or any supreme being and sometimes I don't understand why people do.

Tisk, tisk. We already covered this a while back. I explained in great length why you have a need. If God is real, and if the bible is true, do you have a need? Yes or no. Now, you can say, I don't believe those things, but you certainly can't say tht you don't understand why people need God. That is not being honest my friend.
Like I said, your problem is you don't know you are starving. You don't know you are drowning. And you don't know you are in debt. And so why would you see any value in a life preserver, the bread of life, or someone paying your fine. You don't think you have a need for any of those things.
If what the Bible teaches is true, then you have an eternal need, whether you believe it or not, and whether you see the value in it or not. People don't give much thought of their need for air, until they don't have any.
Are you going to die? The answer is yes, of course. In fact, even as you read this, the hand of death is pushing you closer to the edge of eternity. Eternity is a long time to be wrong.

And you are arguing that because all things are easy for God, that His gift doesn't have enough meaning for you to accept it. Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. No more sense than a man refusing to have his debt paid off, because the person paying it off is too wealthy. Although I would contend with your position here. No matter how trivial you think God's gift to be, He did give Himself. And whether He knew the outcome or not, He still gave His all.

When you say God can do anything, you are right and wrong. There are things I can do, but won't do. There are things so abhorrent to me, that I would die before I would do them. So saying God is able to do something is really only part of the truth. God has a nature. And because of that nature, there are things he will not do. Lie, for example. And He will not violate His character. This is what you are missing, among other things. And it is paramount.

[Manfer84]

Zoegirl:
I already asked this, (and they told there was a thread about it but I haven't had the time to read it all) but I'll ask you now, how forsaken was Jesus if his father was waiting for him to revive him and take him to heaven?

“From a judicial standpoint, when someone pays a fine...does that payment mean any less if the one paying it eventually is ok???”
If the richest guy comes and pays your fine, it's cool, he did you a solid, you're gonna be thankful, but is that as meaningful as say your family is poor and have to get a huge debt their gonna be working probably for the rest of their lives and yours to pay that fine? I don't think those actions are equally meaningful, do you?

“Let me ask you this, Manfer. What would make it meaningful in your eyes? To have Christ die and that's that? He would not have conquered death were that to be. He died so that we may live!”
For me it would be if God actually sacrificed something for us, if he would have lost his son in order to save us, not loose him for a few days, but actually lost him forever and ever.
At the end of the day God chose that path (the whole Jesus thing), with his power he could have just blink and made every person feel how much he loves us and wants to save us, he could have just made every person in the world feel the love Jesus showed us by dying.
He chose to send and kill and resurrect his son, or a you telling me that an omnipotent, and omni-everything being could not have come up with a less gruesome way to make his “children” realized how much he loves and cares for them?.
For me the Jesus story is just a guilt trip. Its God saying: looked my son died for you!! Now worship me! (don't mean it as offensive as it may sound)

[Manfer84]

Jlay:
I've never started this thread to prove anything, it was always just to know peoples opinion, I'm not trying to make you see things the way I do, why would I want that? My intention was always to get your opinion and see how other people see and feel the whole Jesus story.

“Like I said, your problem is you don't know you are starving. You don't know you are drowning. And you don't know you are in debt.”
When you say this you sound like you already know you are right, and that there is no way anything different that what you believe is true, so are you or are you not open to the idea that you could be wrong? Are you open minded to the idea that your worldview can be shattered?
I think I am, because if God were to be real (existed) I wouldn't have to change my life one bit, ok maybe go to church more and pray before I go to sleep, oh and confess!. But that's it. I would still keep doing my charity work, helping in my community, love my mother and father and sisters (whether they are a pain in the ass) and everything I do in my day to day life. I think I am pretty good Christian if it weren't for the fact that I don´t believe God exists.

And one last question, can someone actually know the nature of God or are we just getting an idea of it from the Bible and all that?

[jlay]

Manfer,

I'm not saying I know I'm right because I can shout louder than you, or debate better than you, or because of popular vote. I am saying that when you encounter the truth, the truth WILL set you free. Truth is knowable. God doesn't cease to exist because you don't beleive. No more than He pops into existence because you believe. You say your life isn't affected. But you benefit from His reality whether you recognize it or not. Unless you don't think truth, justice and mercy are good things to abide by. Even blind people benefit from the sun.

Are you open minded to the idea that your worldview can be shattered?

It was.

I think I am, because if God were to be real (existed) I wouldn't have to change my life one bit, ok maybe go to church more and pray before I go to sleep, oh and confess!. But that's it. I would still keep doing my charity work, helping in my community, love my mother and father and sisters (whether they are a pain in the ***) and everything I do in my day to day life. I think I am pretty good Christian if it weren't for the fact that I don´t believe God exists.

Your statement here only tells me just how little you get it. The Christian thing that is. Justing being candid. Not only do you completey distort what it means to be a Christian, but as in past threads you are trying to justify yourself. Your statement could be summed up, "I'm as good as anybody else." I believe I went through this with you in depth on another thread and you at least claimed that you got it. My explanation that is. But according to this statement, we are right back at square one. No problem.

And one last question, can someone actually know the nature of God or are we just getting an idea of it from the Bible and all that?

Yes. My first encoutner with the nature of God was when I had little if any biblical knowledge. Studying the bible has only solidified and confirmed such.

I've never started this thread to prove anything

Let's not mince words. You are stating that God's gift lacks efficient meaning because, if God is real, then He is capable of anything. You can say you are not trying to prove anything. But statements like this beg the question. This is your worldview. Defend it. If you can't, then why do you hold to it?

For me the Jesus story is just a guilt trip. Its God saying: looked my son died for you!! Now worship me! (don't mean it as offensive as it may sound)

A guilt trip from who? A God who doesn't exist?
If God exist, and the Bible is the truth that reveals who He is, then does He merit worship? I mean come on Man, we live in a culture that worships pop stars and athletes. We are talking about the creator of the universe. Not some pop star. And if our lives are in direct conflict with His nature, should we have guilt for our crimes against Him? What have you got against guilt? If someone harms you, are you implying that they shouldn't have remorse?
Even though you deny it, you only demonstrate your worldview is at stake. Because if God is real, then so are your crimes and so is your guilt. And I detect that this rubs you the wrong way.

Why do you boast about the way you live? You say you live like a Christian? So what? What value does that have? If there is no Christ, then by what standard do you determine that you are living the 'right' way?

[jlay]

If the richest guy comes and pays your fine, it's cool, he did you a solid, you're gonna be thankful, but is that as meaningful as say your family is poor and have to get a huge debt their gonna be working probably for the rest of their lives and yours to pay that fine? I don't think those actions are equally meaningful, do you?

So what?
There is no other God to compare a gift to. There is ONE God and one gift. God GAVE His ONLY begotten.

For me it would be if God actually sacrificed something for us, if he would have lost his son in order to save us, not loose him for a few days, but actually lost him forever and ever.

Funny that the Bible addresses this VERY point.
1 Cor 15: 12-18
"But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
If Jesus had remained dead, then you could NOT have eternal life. To try and seperate the resurrection from the death is to destroy the complete work. It's a faulty premise. It's a self defeating argument.

At the end of the day God chose that path (the whole Jesus thing), with his power he could have just blink and made every person feel how much he loves us and wants to save us, he could have just made every person in the world feel the love Jesus showed us by dying.

God constructed the way that complies with and fits with His nature. Not yours. God doesn't bow His knee to you. You've made it clear by your own words, that for you to believe in God, He must bow to you.

He chose to send and kill and resurrect his son, or a you telling me that an omnipotent, and omni-everything being could not have come up with a less gruesome way to make his “children” realized how much he loves and cares for them?.

Again, you are just saying that God should do it your way. Maybe He should hand out hugs and lollipops.

All you are saying here is that you refuse to conform to the ways of the master. That your way is better than his way.
Who is playing God here?

[Manfer84]

Jlay:
Again, you say that God exist, that's it for you, there is no way that would change right? You are a 100% sure you have the right answer. For you every other person that's not Christian is wrong.

And then you said you know the nature of God, that somehow your normal human brain can compute a being that's suppose to exist outside of time and space, be infinite and every other thing they say about God. That's cool I hope I get to have the capacity to understand such things.

Apparently I have been taught wrong what it is to be a good Christian, please enlighten me. I thought it was basically following what Jesus said; whether or not he was real, he is a good example.
I haven´t compare myself to anyone I just describe how I live, sorry if it didn't make any sense for me to say it.

I've describe the way I see things, I've asked how other people see them, in what sense is that trying to prove something.
If I say that a wall is blue and then asked you what color it is to you, am I trying to prove is blue? Or just curious about what you think?
I think you've interpreted a simple question out of curiosity as a debate and an attack on what you think. I hope I'm wrong because I enjoy this kind of conversations.

Of course a guilt trip from God, who else? I think I already said it, but in not sure.
Let me put it this way. I don´t believe God exist, but in order for me to even asked the question about Jesus sacrifice I would have to assume that God exist, just for the sake of asking the question. So you could say that in order for me to start this thread I had to put myself in the shoes of someone who believes (as best as I can remember how I felt when I still believed)

Now here is something about me, maybe you care maybe you don't:
Often I start to think about the possibility of me being wrong. Not just about religion but everything in my life. So I create different scenarios for how I fell about a variety of issues. Let's take religion. I sometimes say: Ok let's say I get past then problems I have with the existence of God, what other problems do I have with Christianity? Last time I did that the Jesus thing came up, so I thought: Ok let's ask the guys at the God and Science Forum what they think, since last time I did it, it was quite fun.

That's it, like I told you on the last thread we “talk” I´m here for my personal curiosity I'm not looking to be converted, if it happens along the way, its fine by me.