Jesus Death

[Manfer84]

If the richest guy comes and pays your fine, it's cool, he did you a solid, you're gonna be thankful, but is that as meaningful as say your family is poor and have to get a huge debt their gonna be working probably for the rest of their lives and yours to pay that fine? I don't think those actions are equally meaningful, do you?

So what?
There is no other God to compare a gift to. There is ONE God and one gift. God GAVE His ONLY begotten.

For me it would be if God actually sacrificed something for us, if he would have lost his son in order to save us, not loose him for a few days, but actually lost him forever and ever.

Funny that the Bible addresses this VERY point.
1 Cor 15: 12-18
"But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
If Jesus had remained dead, then you could NOT have eternal life. To try and seperate the resurrection from the death is to destroy the complete work. It's a faulty premise. It's a self defeating argument.

At the end of the day God chose that path (the whole Jesus thing), with his power he could have just blink and made every person feel how much he loves us and wants to save us, he could have just made every person in the world feel the love Jesus showed us by dying.

God constructed the way that complies with and fits with His nature. Not yours. God doesn't bow His knee to you. You've made it clear by your own words, that for you to believe in God, He must bow to you.

He chose to send and kill and resurrect his son, or a you telling me that an omnipotent, and omni-everything being could not have come up with a less gruesome way to make his “children” realized how much he loves and cares for them?.

Again, you are just saying that God should do it your way. Maybe He should hand out hugs and lollipops.

All you are saying here is that you refuse to conform to the ways of the master. That your way is better than his way.
Who is playing God here?

Conform to the ways of the master?? Are we slaves or something?
Aren´t we allow, even encourage, to question things?
It sounds to me that you take anything your God says and just swallow it, you don't even bother to think it, just because he is your “master” doesn't mean you don't have the right to question him, or think why he does the things he does.
I didn't say God should do the thing the way I like them, I just question his methods that's it. Apparently I can't do that without you thinking I want to be God.

[A Y323]

Conform to the ways of the master?? Are we slaves or something?

Yes.

16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. Romans 6:16-18

But don't think that because you are not a slave to Christ that you are not a slave at all. If you are not a slave to Christ, then you are a slave to sin.

Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. John 8:34

So this is the choice you have to make: do you want to be a slave to righteousness and to Christ, who loves you and will set you free?

35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:35-36

Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. John 8:32

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Romans 6:5-7

Or do you want to be a slave to sin, which will only harm you and cause you to be eternally separated from God?

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

1What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. James 4:1-2

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction Galatians 6:7-8

14 He who is pregnant with evil and conceives trouble gives birth to disillusionment.
15 He who digs a hole and scoops it out falls into the pit he has made.
16 The trouble he causes recoils on himself; his violence comes down on his own head.
Psalm 7:14-16

You have to choose one; you cannot choose both.

No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. Matthew 6:24

[Manfer84]

A Y323:
So according to John 8:34 if you sin you are a slave to sin right?
If you say this I assume you never sin, since you are slave to Jesus. Because according to Matthew 6:24 you cannot have 2 masters. So since Jesus is already your master, you no longer sin, for sinning would make sin your master.
Or you can change masters every time you sin and confess?

[Gabrielman]

Gabrielman:
Based in what you have said, you would let your son kill himself. If he wants to since it's his will and you can´t force him to do yours.
Wouldn't you force him not to do it, and try, even if it takes all your strength, to make him not kill himself? Even if he hated you for it? You know better you know suicide is not the right choice so wouldn't you do anything and everything in your power, even force him to stop? Would you just allow him to do it just because it's his choice?

Manfer, I would do everything in my power to stop him yes, (My son from killing himself) but in the end if he really wanted to he would. Unless I tie him down and hold him there forever, at some point in time he could find a way to kill himself. God is doing all He can to get us into heaven. Tell me this, why should He force you into heaven if you did not want to be there? Heaven is meant to be a paradise, but if you didn't want to be there and he forced you then would you be happy? Remember this is eternal, not just something that will pass with time, so for eternity you would suffer being with someone you didn't want to be with. Just like the homeless man, if he thought he would be fine and he really didn't want to go into my house then I cannot force him, that would be like prison to him (let's pretend it is for all time, hows that?). If I forced him in he may spiral into depression and become suicidal, he may refuse to eat or drink, and he may just hate me and try to kill me while I sleep, so yes, if they really really really didn't want to be with me I would not force him. Just like if you really really really don't want to spend all time with God He won't force you. Would you rather Him force us all into heaven with Him even if you would hate being there? Imagine Hitler being in heaven with you for all time, just think about that. If God forced Hitler into heaven too. If you want to be with God He leaves the door wide open and constantly prompts you to come in, doing all He can to convince you, but He won't make you do anything, He gives you the right to choose if you want to be there or not. Like the thing with a son killing himself, I could do everything in my power to try and stop him, but if he was bound and determined to kill himself, he would find a way. Just like if you are bound and determined to not go to heaven then you won't go, even if God Himself came to you and spent your entire life trying to get you to, in the end you could still say no and find a way out. Or would you rather be forced to be in heaven and hate it for all ETERNITY? You keep saying that God should do all He can in His power to make us all go to heaven, yet why should He if you won't accept Him? Why should He if you won't take the salvation He offered for you to get in. We cannot be in God's presence if we have sinned, so He offers us a way to be washed clean from our sins. The sacrifice on the cross, that is the only way to get into heaven. He cannot force you into heaven if you don't have forgiveness of your sins, if they aren't washed away, because you can not exist in heaven with sin, it isn't possible. God is perfect and holy and sin cannot exist in His presence, so the sacrifice on the cross for your sins (the death we deserved to pay the debt of our sins) is the only way in and He can't make you accept that. He took our punishment and overcame the death we had that we would not have overcome and offers it to you so you can be with Him for all time. So no, He can't just force you into heaven.

[A Y323]

A Y323:
So according to John 8:34 if you sin you are a slave to sin right?
If you say this I assume you never sin, since you are slave to Jesus. Because according to Matthew 6:24 you cannot have 2 masters. So since Jesus is already your master, you no longer sin, for sinning would make sin your master.
Or you can change masters every time you sin and confess?

Not quite.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

I am a sinner, just like everyone else. Romans 7 addresses your question (as well as others that I'm sure someone else can point out).

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 7:21-25

That is just the last few verses, but I encourage you to read the whole chapter (better yet, the whole book!) to better see my point.

[Manfer84]

Gabrielman:
Based in what you have said, you would let your son kill himself. If he wants to since it's his will and you can´t force him to do yours.
Wouldn't you force him not to do it, and try, even if it takes all your strength, to make him not kill himself? Even if he hated you for it? You know better you know suicide is not the right choice so wouldn't you do anything and everything in your power, even force him to stop? Would you just allow him to do it just because it's his choice?

Manfer, I would do everything in my power to stop him yes, (My son from killing himself) but in the end if he really wanted to he would. Unless I tie him down and hold him there forever, at some point in time he could find a way to kill himself. God is doing all He can to get us into heaven. Tell me this, why should He force you into heaven if you did not want to be there? Heaven is meant to be a paradise, but if you didn't want to be there and he forced you then would you be happy? Remember this is eternal, not just something that will pass with time, so for eternity you would suffer being with someone you didn't want to be with. Just like the homeless man, if he thought he would be fine and he really didn't want to go into my house then I cannot force him, that would be like prison to him (let's pretend it is for all time, hows that?). If I forced him in he may spiral into depression and become suicidal, he may refuse to eat or drink, and he may just hate me and try to kill me while I sleep, so yes, if they really really really didn't want to be with me I would not force him. Just like if you really really really don't want to spend all time with God He won't force you. Would you rather Him force us all into heaven with Him even if you would hate being there? Imagine Hitler being in heaven with you for all time, just think about that. If God forced Hitler into heaven too. If you want to be with God He leaves the door wide open and constantly prompts you to come in, doing all He can to convince you, but He won't make you do anything, He gives you the right to choose if you want to be there or not. Like the thing with a son killing himself, I could do everything in my power to try and stop him, but if he was bound and determined to kill himself, he would find a way. Just like if you are bound and determined to not go to heaven then you won't go, even if God Himself came to you and spent your entire life trying to get you to, in the end you could still say no and find a way out. Or would you rather be forced to be in heaven and hate it for all ETERNITY? You keep saying that God should do all He can in His power to make us all go to heaven, yet why should He if you won't accept Him? Why should He if you won't take the salvation He offered for you to get in. We cannot be in God's presence if we have sinned, so He offers us a way to be washed clean from our sins. The sacrifice on the cross, that is the only way to get into heaven. He cannot force you into heaven if you don't have forgiveness of your sins, if they aren't washed away, because you can not exist in heaven with sin, it isn't possible. God is perfect and holy and sin cannot exist in His presence, so the sacrifice on the cross for your sins (the death we deserved to pay the debt of our sins) is the only way in and He can't make you accept that. He took our punishment and overcame the death we had that we would not have overcome and offers it to you so you can be with Him for all time. So no, He can't just force you into heaven.

Gabrielman you said: “You keep saying that God should do all He can in His power to make us all go to heaven, yet why should He if you won't accept Him?”
Why do I say this?, because I think that you and every other parent would do anything and everything for their son even if he rejects you and say he's not your son anymore. Isn't that what a loving father does for his son, be there no matter what he's done or what's he said?

[Manfer84]

A Y323:
So from Romans 7:21-25 I understate that you have two natures, the sinful one (with sin as your master) and your mind (where God is your master). So each separate part of you has a master of their own. So there are no two masters for one part.
That's a pretty good loophole for the whole “only one master”, I'll give you that.

[Byblos]

A Y323:
So from Romans 7:21-25 I understate that you have two natures, the sinful one (with sin as your master) and your mind (where God is your master). So each separate part of you has a master of their own. So there are no two masters for one part.
That's a pretty good loophole for the whole “only one master”, I'll give you that.

Manfer84,

Being a slave to sin is to die in your sins and be condemned for eternity away from God. Being a slave to Christ is to die in Christ and be with God for eternity. Do you really not see that or are you just playing games?

[Gabrielman]

Gabrielman you said: “You keep saying that God should do all He can in His power to make us all go to heaven, yet why should He if you won't accept Him?”
Why do I say this?, because I think that you and every other parent would do anything and everything for their son even if he rejects you and say he's not your son anymore. Isn't that what a loving father does for his son, be there no matter what he's done or what's he said?

Yes a father is there for his son, and yet eventually there comes a time where the father can no longer control their son and no longer do everything for him, is that not true as well? In this case we are saying that the father (God) is going to keep you locked up for all time in a place which you would rather not be, against your will. By doing this He is making you suffer. Instead of doing that He lets you choose your own path in life and lets you choose weather or not you want to be with Him, so that if you choose to suffer in hell, that is by your own hand, and not His, but if you choose to be with Him you can be. That is the point. It's like if your son wanted to move to the desert, and you didn't want him to and you offered him a place to stay at your home instead. If he says he still wants to go then it is by no fault of your own that your son leaves by his choice. He has decided on his own to live away from his father (like if we choose to live away from God, which brings up hell and an entirely different discussion altogether which I think is needed for this) or he can choose to live with His father. Instead of saying that God should do it for us, we should take responsibility for our sins and make our own choices, not say that God has to do it all for us. Instead of saying it's God's fault that He doesn't just take us all in anyway even if we don't want to, we need to own up to our mistakes and make our own decisions on weather or not we want to be with God, or would you rather not have the ability to decided for yourself? Would you rather have God just do it all for you?

[DannyM]

Aren´t we allow, even encourage, to question things?
It sounds to me that you take anything your God says and just swallow it, you don't even bother to think it, just because he is your “master” doesn't mean you don't have the right to question him, or think why he does the things he does.

Nope. Wrong again.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 tells the Christian to put everything to the test

[jlay]

Jlay:
Again, you say that God exist, that's it for you, there is no way that would change right? You are a 100% sure you have the right answer. For you every other person that's not Christian is wrong.

I'm not going to get in a pissing match here Man. I have been very upfront with you in saying, "If" God exist. "If" the bible is true. Yes, I am certain both are correct. And no, I can't force feed you my personal experience. I can't 100% convince a blind man the sky is blue. Even though I can see it clearly, and know beyond a doubt that it is. Just because I can't make the blind man see, doesn't make the truth any less real to me.

And then you said you know the nature of God, that somehow your normal human brain can compute a being that's suppose to exist outside of time and space, be infinite and every other thing they say about God. That's cool I hope I get to have the capacity to understand such things.

You have just as much capacity as anyone else. My knowlege of this has nothing to do with my abilities. God can and does reveal His nature. Even though some things are beyond comprehension. Even though I can't truly comprehend the pressures the President of the USA goes through on a daily basis, doesn't mean I can't understand who he is and what he stands for.

Apparently I have been taught wrong what it is to be a good Christian, please enlighten me. I thought it was basically following what Jesus said; whether or not he was real, he is a good example.
I haven´t compare myself to anyone I just describe how I live, sorry if it didn't make any sense for me to say it.

Sure, a Christian should do the right thing. So should a non-Christian. I am not a Christian because of what I do, but because of who Jesus is. The thief on the cross is every bit a Christian as I am. What it means to be a Christian is to trust Christ. Following Christ in fellowship is the correct thing to do in faith. But it doesn't make me more saved. Being a Christian doesn't make you better than anyone. Just better off.

I've describe the way I see things, I've asked how other people see them, in what sense is that trying to prove something.
If I say that a wall is blue and then asked you what color it is to you, am I trying to prove is blue? Or just curious about what you think?
I think you've interpreted a simple question out of curiosity as a debate and an attack on what you think. I hope I'm wrong because I enjoy this kind of conversations.

I am thick skinned and enjoy barbed wire discussions. Sometimes I wrongly assume people are the same. Whether you are trying to prove something doesn't really matter. If I see something that I think doesn't cut it, I'll challenge it.

Of course a guilt trip from God, who else? I think I already said it, but in not sure.
Let me put it this way. I don´t believe God exist, but in order for me to even asked the question about Jesus sacrifice I would have to assume that God exist, just for the sake of asking the question. So you could say that in order for me to start this thread I had to put myself in the shoes of someone who believes (as best as I can remember how I felt when I still believed)

No problem. Overall I think you've been quite agreeable to explore the things we present. I just see some faults in some of the questions you are asking, which I have pointed out. To get the right answers you have to ask the right questions. Asking, "why isn't the sky green?" is not a reasonable question. Not saying that the faults in your questions are this blatant, just illustrating my point.

That's it, like I told you on the last thread we “talk” I´m here for my personal curiosity I'm not looking to be converted, if it happens along the way, its fine by me.

No problem. Let me lay my cards on the table. I'm here to preach Christ crucified in or out of season. I'm here to convert.

Conform to the ways of the master?? Are we slaves or something?

Everybody is a slave to something. EVERYONE.

Aren´t we allow, even encourage, to question things?

Sure. But like I said, to get the right answers you have to ask the right questions.

Why do I say this?, because I think that you and every other parent would do anything and everything for their son even if he rejects you and say he's not your son anymore. Isn't that what a loving father does for his son, be there no matter what he's done or what's he said?

I don't know how to make this any clearer. Christ death and resurection wasn't a plan, it is THE plan. This was the way that God could reconcile mankind unto Himself without violating His character and nature. I've covered this. To say, "but god can do anything," fails to acknowledge who He is and has revealed Himself to be.

As a parent, I could say, "I'll do anything to protect my daughter." But you know what, there are things I will not do because they violate my character, and they violate her personal liberty. I will not take tests for her. I will not lock her in a padded room because she might get hurt in the real world. I will not forbid her from marrying even though it could end in heart ache.

I noticed you say you aren't trying to prove anything, but you keep making the same statements over and over, while ignoring the answers. This has been answered.

[A Y323]

A Y323:
So from Romans 7:21-25 I understate that you have two natures, the sinful one (with sin as your master) and your mind (where God is your master). So each separate part of you has a master of their own. So there are no two masters for one part.
That's a pretty good loophole for the whole “only one master”, I'll give you that.

Here's the way I see it: when we choose to be a slave to Christ, He sets us free from being a slave to sin. However, while we are still here on earth, we are still subject to our human nature, which is full of sin. Because of this nature that is a part of us, we still sin, even though we don't want to. In this way, we are a prisoner of sin (as the verse says), not a slave to it, because Christ has set us free.

I encouraged you to read the rest of that short chapter (Romans 7), but I assume you didn't, so here's a little more of it.

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Romans 7:14-20

[Manfer84]

Gabrielman you said: “You keep saying that God should do all He can in His power to make us all go to heaven, yet why should He if you won't accept Him?”
Why do I say this?, because I think that you and every other parent would do anything and everything for their son even if he rejects you and say he's not your son anymore. Isn't that what a loving father does for his son, be there no matter what he's done or what's he said?

Yes a father is there for his son, and yet eventually there comes a time where the father can no longer control their son and no longer do everything for him, is that not true as well? In this case we are saying that the father (God) is going to keep you locked up for all time in a place which you would rather not be, against your will. By doing this He is making you suffer. Instead of doing that He lets you choose your own path in life and lets you choose weather or not you want to be with Him, so that if you choose to suffer in hell, that is by your own hand, and not His, but if you choose to be with Him you can be. That is the point. It's like if your son wanted to move to the desert, and you didn't want him to and you offered him a place to stay at your home instead. If he says he still wants to go then it is by no fault of your own that your son leaves by his choice. He has decided on his own to live away from his father (like if we choose to live away from God, which brings up hell and an entirely different discussion altogether which I think is needed for this) or he can choose to live with His father. Instead of saying that God should do it for us, we should take responsibility for our sins and make our own choices, not say that God has to do it all for us. Instead of saying it's God's fault that He doesn't just take us all in anyway even if we don't want to, we need to own up to our mistakes and make our own decisions on weather or not we want to be with God, or would you rather not have the ability to decided for yourself? Would you rather have God just do it all for you?

Gabrielman:
I understand what you mean, the thing is all the examples you mention are of people choosing life away from their father, but we are talking about eternal death right? Hell and all that. So if a son were facing that (eternal death) wouldn´t a loving father try to stop him? And do everything in his power to make him see the light, taking all eternity if he has to?
And the whole decide for yourself, of course everyone wants that but then comes another problem, the whole free will vs. an all-knowing God, which I know this is not the place to start that subject and I have read everything this website has to say about it.
On another note, I've never read much stuff about hell, so maybe you can answer me this: Can you get out of hell? Like say I go to hell, and after I don´t know a million years I realized and accept I´m wrong start loving Jesus and what not, would God hear me out, or after you get to hell he no longer cares about you?. Does the bible say anything about this?

[Manfer84]

Aren´t we allow, even encourage, to question things?
It sounds to me that you take anything your God says and just swallow it, you don't even bother to think it, just because he is your “master” doesn't mean you don't have the right to question him, or think why he does the things he does.

Nope. Wrong again.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 tells the Christian to put everything to the test

Danny M:
So: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 tells the Christian to put everything to the test, but when I question why God would choose such a gruesome way to make a point (saving us from sin), or THE point, as some have put it, I get the whole “who do you think you are to questioned God's way, you think you are better than him”.
So maybe I´m reading it wrong but that doesn't seem compatible with the whole question everything.

[Manfer84]

Jlay:
Again, you say that God exist, that's it for you, there is no way that would change right? You are a 100% sure you have the right answer. For you every other person that's not Christian is wrong.

I'm not going to get in a pissing match here Man. I have been very upfront with you in saying, "If" God exist. "If" the bible is true. Yes, I am certain both are correct. And no, I can't force feed you my personal experience. I can't 100% convince a blind man the sky is blue. Even though I can see it clearly, and know beyond a doubt that it is. Just because I can't make the blind man see, doesn't make the truth any less real to me.

And then you said you know the nature of God, that somehow your normal human brain can compute a being that's suppose to exist outside of time and space, be infinite and every other thing they say about God. That's cool I hope I get to have the capacity to understand such things.

You have just as much capacity as anyone else. My knowlege of this has nothing to do with my abilities. God can and does reveal His nature. Even though some things are beyond comprehension. Even though I can't truly comprehend the pressures the President of the USA goes through on a daily basis, doesn't mean I can't understand who he is and what he stands for.

Apparently I have been taught wrong what it is to be a good Christian, please enlighten me. I thought it was basically following what Jesus said; whether or not he was real, he is a good example.
I haven´t compare myself to anyone I just describe how I live, sorry if it didn't make any sense for me to say it.

Sure, a Christian should do the right thing. So should a non-Christian. I am not a Christian because of what I do, but because of who Jesus is. The thief on the cross is every bit a Christian as I am. What it means to be a Christian is to trust Christ. Following Christ in fellowship is the correct thing to do in faith. But it doesn't make me more saved. Being a Christian doesn't make you better than anyone. Just better off.

I've describe the way I see things, I've asked how other people see them, in what sense is that trying to prove something.
If I say that a wall is blue and then asked you what color it is to you, am I trying to prove is blue? Or just curious about what you think?
I think you've interpreted a simple question out of curiosity as a debate and an attack on what you think. I hope I'm wrong because I enjoy this kind of conversations.

I am thick skinned and enjoy barbed wire discussions. Sometimes I wrongly assume people are the same. Whether you are trying to prove something doesn't really matter. If I see something that I think doesn't cut it, I'll challenge it.

Of course a guilt trip from God, who else? I think I already said it, but in not sure.
Let me put it this way. I don´t believe God exist, but in order for me to even asked the question about Jesus sacrifice I would have to assume that God exist, just for the sake of asking the question. So you could say that in order for me to start this thread I had to put myself in the shoes of someone who believes (as best as I can remember how I felt when I still believed)

No problem. Overall I think you've been quite agreeable to explore the things we present. I just see some faults in some of the questions you are asking, which I have pointed out. To get the right answers you have to ask the right questions. Asking, "why isn't the sky green?" is not a reasonable question. Not saying that the faults in your questions are this blatant, just illustrating my point.

That's it, like I told you on the last thread we “talk” I´m here for my personal curiosity I'm not looking to be converted, if it happens along the way, its fine by me.

No problem. Let me lay my cards on the table. I'm here to preach Christ crucified in or out of season. I'm here to convert.

Conform to the ways of the master?? Are we slaves or something?

Everybody is a slave to something. EVERYONE.

Aren´t we allow, even encourage, to question things?

Sure. But like I said, to get the right answers you have to ask the right questions.

Why do I say this?, because I think that you and every other parent would do anything and everything for their son even if he rejects you and say he's not your son anymore. Isn't that what a loving father does for his son, be there no matter what he's done or what's he said?

I don't know how to make this any clearer. Christ death and resurection wasn't a plan, it is THE plan. This was the way that God could reconcile mankind unto Himself without violating His character and nature. I've covered this. To say, "but god can do anything," fails to acknowledge who He is and has revealed Himself to be.

As a parent, I could say, "I'll do anything to protect my daughter." But you know what, there are things I will not do because they violate my character, and they violate her personal liberty. I will not take tests for her. I will not lock her in a padded room because she might get hurt in the real world. I will not forbid her from marrying even though it could end in heart ache.

I noticed you say you aren't trying to prove anything, but you keep making the same statements over and over, while ignoring the answers. This has been answered.

Jlay:
During my relaxing weekend at the beach with my girl, seafood and beer in hand, I´ve thought about what you said on your last post and come to the conclusion that you are right, I keep presenting the same argument over again, different words but same ideas.
So I think we are at a point that at this time I have no more things to say, besides the same thing and that I just don't find the ideas you have presented me enough to change how I feel, not saying that you didn't do a very good job at it, but maybe I need to figure other stuff out before I feel like you and most of the guys here do, about the whole Jesus thing.