catholics/christians

[Dan]

Catholics ARE Christian. I have no idea why people keep saying they're not. -____________-

Some are but alot miss the boat. They believe in the Church but don't understand the relationship to Jesus that is preached by that Church

A lot of Christians in general "miss the boat". Frankly, I don't know why people hate catholics so much. They have faith in Jesus, except there are things expected of them. People seem to have the impression that Catholics believe they are saved only by works. I know they don't think that, they think they need both.

When you said that "people hate Catholics" I don't know if you meant other Christians or people in general. I don't know any Christians who "hate" Catholics. Some may feel very strongly against the doctrines the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) teaches. Praying to Mary (or to dead people in general) is probably one of the biggest problems non-Catholics have with the RCC. You hear of things like "consecrating yourself to Jesus through Mary." There is no mediator between the Christian and Jesus. The insertion of Mary into such a status is simply not biblical, that I can see.

In Him,
Once4all

Roman Catholics don't pray <i>to</i> saints or Mary, they ask them to pray for them. It's the same thing as asking your friend to pray for you. On another note, the saints and Mary led very holy lives and since we know they're alive it should be OK to ask them ("pray") for guidance in support in following Christ.[/i]

[Deborah]

I agree with mastermind that alot of people we call Christian miss the boat. it is these people who have made Christianity look bad.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

We are told not to have any dealings with the dead, though.

[Dan]

We are told not to have any dealings with the dead, though.

How can they be dead when they are with Christ

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

2 forms of death:
physical
spiritual

Saved people experience:
physical
though of course not spiritual

That's how.

[Prodigal Son]

i know catholics are christians. i definately don't hate the catholic church. i just feel that due to the high level of ritualism in services/worship, i was never able to develop a relationship with God--it's as if he was masked behind the mechanics of worship, as if by the time I was done "worshipping", i forgot what my intentions had been to start with; i was too tired to look for God...i couldn't reach him.

don't know how else to explain it.

also, although many don't believe that catholics pray to saints/mary, many do...whether they are confused about what the church teaches on this matter or not, i have witnessed many a catholic pray to saints/Mary for intervention, assistance, aid.

but, of course, i do miss the kneeling! i am going to try to find the courage to kneel in my non-denominational church.

[Mastermind]

When you said that "people hate Catholics" I don't know if you meant other Christians or people in general. I don't know any Christians who "hate" Catholics. Some may feel very strongly against the doctrines the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) teaches. Praying to Mary (or to dead people in general) is probably one of the biggest problems non-Catholics have with the RCC. You hear of things like "consecrating yourself to Jesus through Mary." There is no mediator between the Christian and Jesus. The insertion of Mary into such a status is simply not biblical, that I can see.

In Him,
Once4all

Some take that strong feeling to hate. I've honestly been embarrased to see other christians who I know to be good people act like wolves. Not to mention that there is a lot of misinformation regarding the RCC.

[kateliz]

i just feel that due to the high level of ritualism in services/worship, i was never able to develop a relationship with God--it's as if he was masked behind the mechanics of worship, as if by the time I was done "worshipping", i forgot what my intentions had been to start with; i was too tired to look for God...i couldn't reach him.

don't know how else to explain it.

Thank you colors- that is exactly what I meant. That loss of connection can happen simply because, "It confuses rituals or symbols with the thing it symbolizes... it places importance on things that are meaningless, (the act of the ritual,) and therefore distracts from the real thing. Even if it doesn't feel like it, it's harmful." I believe this could possibly be a spiritual rule, where when there's ritual there's a loss of connection to God.

Using a ritual is like using a medium other than God to connect to Him. Jesus is our medium to get to God; any other is heretical. You don't need to go through a priest to confess to God your sins, (as some Catholics do, though I understand others and non-Catholics merely do it to confess to a human after they first confessed to God,) and you don't need to use any other ritual to "help" you reach God. Jesus came to be our medium to reach God, and being in Him and Him being in us we need no other medium. Other mediums only get in the way!

So what if you do the Cross before you Pray who cares as long as God knows where your heart is.

Yes, however what I'm saying is that rituals affect your heart, and because of that it does matter. There is a natural tendency, (oftimes undetected,) to place undue attention on the ritual itself, and consequently you give proportionately less attention to God Himself while performing the ritual. I'll use math to describe this: your total inward attention at a given moment is 40, let's say. When you perform a ritual you naturally give that ritual 5 or 10 of your attention points. That leaves you with 35 or 30 attention points for trying to reach God using that ritual, vs. the 40 you would've given without the ritual. If there's a lot of rituals all right in a row or close to each other the attention you naturally give to the rituals goes up, say from 5 to 20, or 10 to 30. Now you have only 20 or 10 attention points going towards God Himself. This cannot be helped- it is the way our brains are wired. Now if you get quite used to the rituals you can easily start to either: rely on the rituals to do the inner spiritual work of reaching for God, (which they cannot do by themselves, and so shouldn't be relied on for this,) and out of that reliance your attention to God Himself goes way down to 5 or less, or you could be so used to them that you pay less attention to them and so more to God- but you still won't even match the attention you'd give God without them! The rituals will not increase your total attention points! They can only take from them what should be going to God Himself!

People seem to have the impression that Catholics believe they are saved only by works. I know they don't think that, they think they need both.

To rely on Christ plus something is to not wholly rely on Christ. Again, all we need is Christ, and anything more equals spiritual death. Christ is the whole of our salvation, and any view with His saving work being less than the whole of our salvation negates the salvation. Galations 5:4 states You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Notice that this means that if you at all seek to be justified by law you have fallen from grace. It's either wholly grace that you're saved by, or no grace.

All christians are supposed to do works, works are an indication of being saved.

Yes, but they are an indication of salvation, not a requirement for. That's the key. If some Catholics, or a lot of them, believe in faith plus works, then those Catholics aren't real Christians. That's why people say that, Mastermind. Well, that and a whole lot of other blatantly unbiblical doctrines they hold. However, you can be Christian and have other unbiblical doctrines, but if you have enough of them people will most likely assume you're not a Christian at all. That's a very popular assumption no matter what unbiblical doctrines you hold. Many wrong = more wrong is likely.

there is a lot of misinformation regarding the RCC.

Don't mean to point fingers, but it seems to me that you're the one with the misinformation. Don't you know anything about their unbiblical docrtines? (Sorry, I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it!) Isn't it obvious they worship, (they call it honor but it's much more,) things other than God? It's idolatry! They worship their select "Saints," Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" and "perpetual virgin," the pope who's word apparently is put above the Bible, and place their faith in blessings instead of God, medals of saints, blessed water and rituals. Tell me if this doesn't sound like it contradicts RCC views, As he was speaking, a woman in the crowd called out, "God bless your mother- the womb from which you came, and the breasts that nursed you!" He replied, "But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice." Luke 11:27, 28 Once when Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, they couldn't get to him because of the crowds. Someone told Jesus, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to see you." Jesus replied, "My mother and my brothers are all those who hear the message of God and obey it." Luke 8:19-21

The RCC hold Mary just below Christ, with no one else on the same level as her. What's wrong with this picture? They put Mary above all other Christians, and above their "Saints" who are above all other Christians, and Jesus in their own Bibles rebuked this very thing! I do not hate Catholics, but I absolutely hate the docrtines! This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. (Mark 7:6-7)

[Mastermind]

To rely on Christ plus something is to not wholly rely on Christ.

Kateliz, say hello to Mr. James:

James 2


13: For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.
14: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
15: If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16: and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17: So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18: But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19: You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.
20: Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22: You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23: and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25: And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Don't mean to point fingers, but it seems to me that you're the one with the misinformation. Don't you know anything about their unbiblical docrtines? (Sorry, I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it!)

Like the purgatory? Yes, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

Isn't it obvious they worship, (they call it honor but it's much more,) things other than God? It's idolatry! They worship their select "Saints," Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" and "perpetual virgin," the pope who's word apparently is put above the Bible, and place their faith in blessings instead of God, medals of saints, blessed water and rituals.

They do no such thing. This is why you're misinformed. They don't belong to "your side" so you see what you want to see in them. I've never heard of anybody worshipping a saint, it's pure slander.

Tell me if this doesn't sound like it contradicts RCC viewsp, As he was speaking, a woman in the crowd called out, "God bless your mother- the womb from which you came, and the breasts that nursed you!" He replied, "But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice." Luke 11:27, 28 Once when Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, they couldn't get to him because of the crowds. Someone told Jesus, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to see you." Jesus replied, "My mother and my brothers are all those who hear the message of God and obey it." Luke 8:19-21

It doesn't. Funny enough, this verse is used to twist scripture all the time. Last time I saw it, some dude was claiming Jesus was gay. His misinterpretation is about as innacurate as yours is.

The RCC hold Mary just below Christ, with no one else on the same level as her. What's wrong with this picture? They put Mary above all other Christians, and above their "Saints" who are above all other Christians, and Jesus in their own Bibles rebuked this very thing!

Hardly. We recognise great leaders, great actors, great singers. Why can't they recognise great Christians? Particularly since most saints are a true inspiration. Whether you like it or not, people feel the need for something tangible to reaffirm their faith. The Saints do a great job in providing this. As people read about their WORKS they realise how much faith those people had. You are proposing that we destroy anything that might help people simply because you think everybody can just say "I have faith". It's never that simple.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Quote:

Isn't it obvious they worship, (they call it honor but it's much more,) things other than God? It's idolatry! They worship their select "Saints," Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" and "perpetual virgin," the pope who's word apparently is put above the Bible, and place their faith in blessings instead of God, medals of saints, blessed water and rituals.

They do no such thing. This is why you're misinformed. They don't belong to "your side" so you see what you want to see in them. I've never heard of anybody worshipping a saint, it's pure slander.

They don't worship, but they do pray to the saints. There's a saint for basically everything. My ex-Catholic, now just regular Christian, ex-Spanish teacher, now tutor (I'm making this more complicated than it really is) said that she basically prayed to certain saints for certain needs-this saint for lost item, another saint for something else, etc. I think it was said earlier "no, they don't pray, they ask for help praying." I'm definately no expert...but....it seems to be praying to saints. Call a rose by any other name, but those thorns still hurt!

[Dan]

Quote:

Isn't it obvious they worship, (they call it honor but it's much more,) things other than God? It's idolatry! They worship their select "Saints," Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" and "perpetual virgin," the pope who's word apparently is put above the Bible, and place their faith in blessings instead of God, medals of saints, blessed water and rituals.

They do no such thing. This is why you're misinformed. They don't belong to "your side" so you see what you want to see in them. I've never heard of anybody worshipping a saint, it's pure slander.

They don't worship, but they do pray to the saints. There's a saint for basically everything. My ex-Catholic, now just regular Christian, ex-Spanish teacher, now tutor (I'm making this more complicated than it really is) said that she basically prayed to certain saints for certain needs-this saint for lost item, another saint for something else, etc. I think it was said earlier "no, they don't pray, they ask for help praying." I'm definately no expert...but....it seems to be praying to saints. Call a rose by any other name, but those thorns still hurt!

Different saints are associated with different aspects of life, you can ask any saint to pray to Christ for you for anything, but each saint has their own 'niche' of some sort based on their deeds and life.

When you 'pray' to a saint, you're saying for example, "Saint Thomas pray for me to Christ so that I may receive wisdom and knowledge about Him and glorify Him with my mind!". You'd do this because Saint Thomas Aquineas is the patron saint of scholars and students. He was the one of the most scholarly of Christ's believers in the middle ages, that's why he is associated with education.

[Mastermind]

Quote:

Isn't it obvious they worship, (they call it honor but it's much more,) things other than God? It's idolatry! They worship their select "Saints," Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" and "perpetual virgin," the pope who's word apparently is put above the Bible, and place their faith in blessings instead of God, medals of saints, blessed water and rituals.

They do no such thing. This is why you're misinformed. They don't belong to "your side" so you see what you want to see in them. I've never heard of anybody worshipping a saint, it's pure slander.

They don't worship, but they do pray to the saints. There's a saint for basically everything. My ex-Catholic, now just regular Christian, ex-Spanish teacher, now tutor (I'm making this more complicated than it really is) said that she basically prayed to certain saints for certain needs-this saint for lost item, another saint for something else, etc. I think it was said earlier "no, they don't pray, they ask for help praying." I'm definately no expert...but....it seems to be praying to saints. Call a rose by any other name, but those thorns still hurt!

Remind me to burn you as a heretic next time you ask somebody to pray for you.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Remind me to burn you as a heretic next time you ask somebody to pray for you.

The irony-the Protestant burning the Catholic for a change....


(not anti-Catholic, it seemed amusing)

[Mastermind]

You're confused. I'm not a protestant. And since when are you Catholic?

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

You're confused. I'm not a protestant. And since when are you Catholic?

Oh, didn't know it was I you wanted to burn. Should have known.