Jesus Death

[B. W.]

Aren´t we allow, even encourage, to question things?
It sounds to me that you take anything your God says and just swallow it, you don't even bother to think it, just because he is your “master” doesn't mean you don't have the right to question him, or think why he does the things he does.

Nope. Wrong again.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 tells the Christian to put everything to the test

Danny M:
So: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 tells the Christian to put everything to the test, but when I question why God would choose such a gruesome way to make a point (saving us from sin), or THE point, as some have put it, I get the whole “who do you think you are to questioned God's way, you think you are better than him”.
So maybe I´m reading it wrong but that doesn't seem compatible with the whole question everything.

The point is - exposes who we really are and are like - exposes sin and how each of us makes life ugly in so many was. Are you free from road rage? Perfect in all your ways and never commited a wrong? Ever tried to cover your a-r-s-e or pass the buck to get out of a jam? Ever lied about something or someone? Habored thoughts of revenge in your heart? Ever betrayed your promises and word? Robbed someone of their heart? etc and etc... These things happened to Jesus too and the cross ecxposes these truths about humanity in a gruesome way - so much so that many find it eaiser to hide their head in the sand saying than look at themselves and what they have done...
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[jlay]

Jlay:
During my relaxing weekend at the beach with my girl, seafood and beer in hand, I´ve thought about what you said on your last post and come to the conclusion that you are right, I keep presenting the same argument over again, different words but same ideas.
So I think we are at a point that at this time I have no more things to say, besides the same thing and that I just don't find the ideas you have presented me enough to change how I feel, not saying that you didn't do a very good job at it, but maybe I need to figure other stuff out before I feel like you and most of the guys here do, about the whole Jesus thing.

Whenever you are ready to pick up the discussion just let me know.
My challenge to you would be to really ask yourself why you have come to the conclusions you have. You have asked questions of Christianity, and rightfully so. This has revealed that you have some misconceptions about what it is to be a Christian. So, I would be just as diligent to ask myself, "why do I believe what I believe, and reject belief in certain things?" I think I've pointed out on more than one occassion where your rejection was based in either misinformation or distorted information. If our worldview is a building, it would be a terrible thing to be putting on the roof, and realize the foundation is faulty.

There are different kind of roadblocks. There are roadblocks that are from ignorance, and or being misinformed. For example: "Being a Christian means acting certain ways." There are many people who reject Christianity because of misconceptions about the faith. They simply are either ignorant of the tenets of the faith, or are misinformed. And they have drawn conclusions based on this. Sadly, these people think they have rejected Christianity, when in fact they have done nothing of the sort. It's called throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I will point out that a lot of misconceptions are from bad teaching and representation within the so called Christian church. If you grow up going to a church that incorrectly handled the bible, and then later reject "Christianity" because of your "experience," then what have you done? That is why you meet a lot of people who say, "I used to be a Christian.........." When in fact there is no evidence that they had actually trusted in Christ according to His message. They are rejecting the wrong teaching. However, they lump everything into one ball that they label "Christianity," and condemn it all with the same disdain.

And there are roadblocks from unbelief. In other words, the Christian position has been explained, but the person isn't convinced, or refuses to submit to it as truth. One can receive sound doctrine, and even agree that it makes sense, but still reject the message. Jesus said, whoever hears my message and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life. (John 5:21)

[Manfer84]

Jlay:
During my relaxing weekend at the beach with my girl, seafood and beer in hand, I´ve thought about what you said on your last post and come to the conclusion that you are right, I keep presenting the same argument over again, different words but same ideas.
So I think we are at a point that at this time I have no more things to say, besides the same thing and that I just don't find the ideas you have presented me enough to change how I feel, not saying that you didn't do a very good job at it, but maybe I need to figure other stuff out before I feel like you and most of the guys here do, about the whole Jesus thing.

Whenever you are ready to pick up the discussion just let me know.
My challenge to you would be to really ask yourself why you have come to the conclusions you have. You have asked questions of Christianity, and rightfully so. This has revealed that you have some misconceptions about what it is to be a Christian. So, I would be just as diligent to ask myself, "why do I believe what I believe, and reject belief in certain things?" I think I've pointed out on more than one occassion where your rejection was based in either misinformation or distorted information. If our worldview is a building, it would be a terrible thing to be putting on the roof, and realize the foundation is faulty.

There are different kind of roadblocks. There are roadblocks that are from ignorance, and or being misinformed. For example: "Being a Christian means acting certain ways." There are many people who reject Christianity because of misconceptions about the faith. They simply are either ignorant of the tenets of the faith, or are misinformed. And they have drawn conclusions based on this. Sadly, these people think they have rejected Christianity, when in fact they have done nothing of the sort. It's called throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I will point out that a lot of misconceptions are from bad teaching and representation within the so called Christian church. If you grow up going to a church that incorrectly handled the bible, and then later reject "Christianity" because of your "experience," then what have you done? That is why you meet a lot of people who say, "I used to be a Christian.........." When in fact there is no evidence that they had actually trusted in Christ according to His message. They are rejecting the wrong teaching. However, they lump everything into one ball that they label "Christianity," and condemn it all with the same disdain.

And there are roadblocks from unbelief. In other words, the Christian position has been explained, but the person isn't convinced, or refuses to submit to it as truth. One can receive sound doctrine, and even agree that it makes sense, but still reject the message. Jesus said, whoever hears my message and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life. (John 5:21)

You make a really valid point; maybe I was raise in a “wrong Christian way”, who knows.
But some time ago I tried to become a religious person, (because of a personal relationship, which I think I remember telling you about), everything they told me and I read sounded ok, in some aspects, but still it didn't “feel” right. I think I'm of the ones that “can receive sound doctrine, and even agree that it makes sense, but still reject the message”
I´ve tried getting on my knees and pray, as opened and honest as I can be, or feel I'm being, and nothing has happened, maybe subconsciously I'm “psyching” myself out, I don't know, I don't think I was.
So what would you recommend in that case, to open my heart to God? I already did it and nothing happen, maybe I did wrong but how can you know when “your heart is really open”?

[jlay]

So what would you recommend in that case, to open my heart to God? I already did it and nothing happen, maybe I did wrong but how can you know when “your heart is really open”?

When you know, you know. I'm not trying to sound trite or evasive. I remember you talking about the relationship and that gave me and gives me cause for concern. I remember you saying, "I'm not here to be converted." Were the motives of your heart to seek and find God, or to save a relationship? If you are motivated by feelings, I am here to tell you that your feelings can and will mislead you. Faith in Christ is not about being led around by your nose by goosebumps, and butterflies. I can't weigh the motives of your heart, but there is enough I've learned in our dialogue to know that you think there is some magic formula, or incantation to say and then, boom! Sorry, it doesn't work like that.
Do you expect to bow down, say something, and then all of the sudden 'feel' the right way?? It doesn't work that way. Anyway, you are not going to bow down to something or someone you don't really believe is there. It is not about how hard you "tried." Trying sounds like a noble thing. But it is a far cry from trusting.

how can you know when “your heart is really open”?

Not calling yourself an atheist would be a good start. Next would be studying Jesus' message. That means leaving behind 'religion,' and begin sorting through what you know or think you know about Jesus. It means questioning with as much aggression the positions that have influenced you to reject God, as you have the faith positions themselves.

I'm confident in this. The bible says, "Whoever seeks Me with their whole heart, will seek Me and find Me." That is either true or bunk. I can't exactly say what "finding God," will mean for you. But I am fairly certain it will not be motivated by something as fleeting and unpredictable as feelings. And I am not saying that God can not use feelings. He can.

"Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord WILL be saved." That is an easy verse to say. However, it is not so easy to understand how a person arrives at the point where they will call out. This isn't an experiment. No one calls on the Lord unless He believes He "is" . No one calls out to be saved, unless they know they are in peril.

If your heart is open, let loose of this world. It has nothing to offer you but a grave. It is interesting that the world you cling to, can only tell you that you are a meaningless accident. A biological anomaly on a spec of dust in a moment of time. Anything else is a lie and an illusion. The world offers you nothing.
Christianity says that Manfer is valued. That your very life has meaning rooted from the beginning of time. That you were born out of the dreams of God. And that this God, who by your own admission, shouldn't give you any notice, is intimately concerned with you. He even knew in advance that you would mock His gift, and say it lacked meaning. And knowing this, He still bled and died, and raised again, for you. And this is the truth I live out of. And that is why you are valuable to me. And my prayer is that you will come to know how valuable you are.

[Manfer84]

Jlay:
I said I'm not here to be converted, because it's true, I already tried it and it didn't work, maybe I did it wrong, who knows. I'm here for personal curiosity if conversion happens along the way fine by me, I'm certainly not looking for it anymore.

Also the thing is I don't mind for the grave to be it, I'm not afraid for my “eternal soul” I don't believe in any kind of afterlife, I don't see why there would be one.

I value life, all life, because of how rare it is and how difficult (if not almost impossible) it was for life to get to this point, how we might have started as stardust (or whatever) and end up as these complex organisms we call human race. That for me is the most amazing thing ever, and why we must value life.
The fact that we are here as a result of natural processes, not some instant creation of man, is more amazing because it tells us how precious and rare life is.

[DannyM]

Danny M:
So: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 tells the Christian to put everything to the test, but when I question why God would choose such a gruesome way to make a point (saving us from sin), or THE point, as some have put it, I get the whole “who do you think you are to questioned God's way, you think you are better than him”..

Manfer, I'm confused: not long ago you said it wasn't that much of a big deal as Jesus rose from the dead, so therefore wasn't really much of a sacrifice. Now it's all gruesome and bad?

So maybe I´m reading it wrong but that doesn't seem compatible with the whole question everything.

This whole website is testamony to 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

[Manfer84]

Danny M:
So: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 tells the Christian to put everything to the test, but when I question why God would choose such a gruesome way to make a point (saving us from sin), or THE point, as some have put it, I get the whole “who do you think you are to questioned God's way, you think you are better than him”..

Manfer, I'm confused: not long ago you said it wasn't that much of a big deal as Jesus rose from the dead, so therefore wasn't really much of a sacrifice. Now it's all gruesome and bad?

Danny M.
How did the gruesomeness of the action comes into play for assigning meaning? I don't understand.

I have no idea what you mean by “Now it's all gruesome and bad?”

I never said he didn't suffer, I asked how meaningful that suffering was, do you understand the difference?
You seem to think that I said that Jesus didn't suffer or his death did hurt, please show me where I said this, so I can see how I change my mind when I said the whole thing was gruesome.

[DannyM]

How did the gruesomeness of the action comes into play for assigning meaning? I don't understand.
I never said he didn't suffer, I asked how meaningful that suffering was, do you understand the difference?
You seem to think that I said that Jesus didn't suffer or his death did hurt, please show me where I said this, so I can see how I change my mind when I said the whole thing was gruesome.

You have implied it throughout this thread. Do I have to keep pulling up quotes from yourself every time I talk to you?

“Also consider if a billionaire paid off all of your debt, as a free gift. To him, it is only a fraction of a fraction of his wealth. Now, imagine if you said, "It's meaningless." "In comparison with all his abundant wealth, it hardly cost him a thing."
Again, I would be really grateful, invite him over for dinner every couple of month's maybe, but wouldn't hang his picture on my wall, and live my life to please him.

Your whole tone actually sounds decidedly UNGRATEFUL.

I'll say it again, the action has value, I see it, I just don´t think is that big of a deal (no offense) and I'm asking how valuable it is.

Again, you are just flippant.

Everyone can give any action any value they want, but looking at the action “objectively” (is that the right word?) how much value does it have?

If it was such a "gruesome death" then doesn't this add just a little value. even for someone such as yourself who is so hard to impress?

He says he has been forsaken, but how forsaken are you when you know Dad is around the corner (well three days around the corner) waiting for you to take you to the best place ever. Being forsaken would have been staying dead, not seeing your dad ever again, that is being forsaken.

Again, you are simply disregarding the pain that Jesus went through. Deny it all you like with your futile disclaimers; your tone speaks volumes...

The way I see it is that God didn´t give up his son, he just misplaced him for a few years and then got it back. If he had lost something you could say, geez look how much he sacrificed for us, but the way it's told is just like, wow he's a cool guy, he did a great thing for us, and that's it.

So you would willingly put your son through the worst pain imaginable, so long as you got him back afterwards? It would mean "nothing" unless your son actually died a fatal death as a result? Your flippancy just boggles the mind; truly only an atheist could be so blaze about such a thing.

All these quotes were pulled from page1. I find your attitude to be a mixture of mockery, flippancy and baiting. But hey, you'll probably ask me to provide the quotes...even though I have done exactly this...

[Manfer84]

Danny M.
I asked you for quotes because I don´t recall saying those things, don´t like to read much and are somewhat lazy.

Yes. Regarding God I´m hard to impress. A being capable of anything doing something is not impressive to me.

“So you would willingly put your son through the worst pain imaginable, so long as you got him back afterwards? It would mean "nothing" unless your son actually died a fatal death as a result? Your flippancy just boggles the mind; truly only an atheist could be so blaze about such a thing.”

If I was an all-powerful being I wouldn't put my son through all that, I would think of another way to do it, I already said this and the answer I got was “So you think you are better than God and who are you to judge him”.
Now I asked you, if in order to safe your whole family you would have to shoot your son, knowing he was gonna get back up after you shot him, and also get a million dollars (to name some price) would you do it?.
It would probably be real hard to do it, but what would you loose if you did it? Your son? No he'll get back up, your family? No they were saved when you shot your son. So what would be hard besides the single moment of making the shot?

[Gabrielman]

Gabrielman you said: “You keep saying that God should do all He can in His power to make us all go to heaven, yet why should He if you won't accept Him?”
Why do I say this?, because I think that you and every other parent would do anything and everything for their son even if he rejects you and say he's not your son anymore. Isn't that what a loving father does for his son, be there no matter what he's done or what's he said?

Yes a father is there for his son, and yet eventually there comes a time where the father can no longer control their son and no longer do everything for him, is that not true as well? In this case we are saying that the father (God) is going to keep you locked up for all time in a place which you would rather not be, against your will. By doing this He is making you suffer. Instead of doing that He lets you choose your own path in life and lets you choose weather or not you want to be with Him, so that if you choose to suffer in hell, that is by your own hand, and not His, but if you choose to be with Him you can be. That is the point. It's like if your son wanted to move to the desert, and you didn't want him to and you offered him a place to stay at your home instead. If he says he still wants to go then it is by no fault of your own that your son leaves by his choice. He has decided on his own to live away from his father (like if we choose to live away from God, which brings up hell and an entirely different discussion altogether which I think is needed for this) or he can choose to live with His father. Instead of saying that God should do it for us, we should take responsibility for our sins and make our own choices, not say that God has to do it all for us. Instead of saying it's God's fault that He doesn't just take us all in anyway even if we don't want to, we need to own up to our mistakes and make our own decisions on weather or not we want to be with God, or would you rather not have the ability to decided for yourself? Would you rather have God just do it all for you?

Gabrielman:
I understand what you mean, the thing is all the examples you mention are of people choosing life away from their father, but we are talking about eternal death right? Hell and all that. So if a son were facing that (eternal death) wouldn´t a loving father try to stop him? And do everything in his power to make him see the light, taking all eternity if he has to?
And the whole decide for yourself, of course everyone wants that but then comes another problem, the whole free will vs. an all-knowing God, which I know this is not the place to start that subject and I have read everything this website has to say about it.
On another note, I've never read much stuff about hell, so maybe you can answer me this: Can you get out of hell? Like say I go to hell, and after I don´t know a million years I realized and accept I´m wrong start loving Jesus and what not, would God hear me out, or after you get to hell he no longer cares about you?. Does the bible say anything about this?

Manfer the first thing is that God is doing everything He can to make you see the light without making the decision for you, you are saying in a way that He should just force you into heaven and make you stay there until you like it, and He won't do that. He is letting you make up your mind, where would you rather spend all eternity? With Him in paradise or alone in the wastes of hell? He gives you all you need to get into heaven, just accept Christ and the forgiveness He gives you, what more do you want God to do for you?

As for you second point, I see no problem with God being all knowing and us having free will, never have either. Here's how I see it, God knows before hand what you will do, yet if He were to just send you to hell before giving you a chance to choose then you would see that as unfair, and you may even try to argue with Him that He was wrong and that you would choose heaven. So He is fair and gives us all the chance to prove ourselves here, if we want to be with Him or not. It's better than Him just throwing you into hell right? He doesn't make your choice for you, so He is still giving you free will, He just knows what you will do and when you will do it. However, like I said He is fair and will let you have your fair chance just like everyone else does. But this is an entirely different discussion, you are right about that, lol.

The Bible states that once you are in hell there is no way out of it, so not once you are there you cannot come back.

[zoegirl]

Manfer,

You aren't impressed by someone who sacrifices himself? Who pays a debt for someone he loves when it isn't his debt and has no obligation to pay it, simply because he loves that person?

Have you ever read "Tale of Two Cities?" Sydney Carton, a not-so-nice character, places himself in another's place at the guillotine because of his resemblance to the man and because of his love for the man's wife . He willingly sacrifices himself. In "Les Miserables" (a great movie! I need to put that in the movie thread) the main character is given grace when he steals some silver. The fact that the rich man can pay for another set of silver dinnerware doesn't negate the mercy of the act.

Even these two fictional examples of sacrifice and nobility and love are lauded and praised. And yet you hoard your praise for a God who did not withhold Himself from us?

Yes. Regarding God I´m hard to impress. A being capable of anything doing something is not impressive to me

So a God who dies for His enemies, even if He is capable of conquering the death that is enslaving His enemies, is not impressive.....wow.

Stop focusing on this bizarre idea that conquering death isn't meaningful (or has no value) whatever you choose to say. Focus on the relationship between God and us.

Now whether you believe it or not, this is what scriptures describes: We are enemies of God....we have, each of us, established ourselves as God instead of Him. We have declared ourselves free from Him. That has placed us outside of a relationship with Him.

Being alienated from God, deserving to be separated from Him, He placed Himself (without sin) in our position, to be declared Guilty before His own Father and accept the punishment and wrath from sin.

Yes, He is God, Yes He can do that....why that doesn't impress you I don't know....but focus on this....HE didn't need do...He choose to. Big difference. He wants a relationship with us however, He is a JUST God.

He cannot simply declare sin "not sin". That would not be just. (try using that idea with a our justice system: while we are veyr happy when the judge excuses us from traffic court, we know darn well that if the judge were to do that with an ax murderer that justice was not served).

He must be a God of Justice: Sin must be paid for (death)

However, He is a Merciful God, He loves us and wants a relationship with us.

So He paid for our sins and God's wrath for sin was poured out on Christi so that we are seen as righteous in God's eyes (Praise Him!!)

Yeah....I think that qualifies as impressive.

[Manfer84]

Gabrielman:

“Manfer the first thing is that God is doing everything He can to make you see the light”

Really? That's all he can do? Talking to me through an old book, getting people that already believe in him to talk to me and working in my life trough “mysterious ways”? That's all the all-powerful, omniscient and omnipotent creator or the universe (in 7 days by the way) can do? Not be offensive but that just doesn't impress me.

“Here's how I see it, God knows before hand what you will do, yet if He were to just send you to hell before giving you a chance to choose then you would see that as unfair”

A chance to choose what? He already knows what you are going to choose or can you surprise him? I think not. So it's not a matter of doing the deed and be judge by it, God knows what you ARE going to do, not what you WOULD do. For him is like you already did it.
For what I understand it's just God will, which was set way before you were even born. He already scored your test, he knows whether you pass or fail, but he wants you to take the course anyway?
I ask you, how does he give us a fair chance, if he already knows where we are going to end up?

“The Bible states that once you are in hell there is no way out of it, so not once you are there you cannot come back.”
So the most loving father just forgets about his sons once they choose the wrong path, there is no way of coming back you said right? I think that's just wrong, but who am I to judge God!!!

If your son today tells you he no longer loves you, that you are dead to him and doesn't want anything to do with you, and leaves. Then after 60 years (imagine of course you are still alive) calls you and admits he was wrong and wants to enter your life again, you would let him right? You would never close your heart to him right? But apparently the all-time loving father would because once you die rejecting him he no longer cares about you, so his undying love is only undying while you are alive. Once you choose the last wrong path (dying without believe) he just doesn't love you anymore. Or is he suffering in heaven for all the people that are in hell?

[DannyM]

Gabrielman:

“Manfer the first thing is that God is doing everything He can to make you see the light”

Really? That's all he can do? Talking to me through an old book, getting people that already believe in him to talk to me and working in my life trough “mysterious ways”? That's all the all-powerful, omniscient and omnipotent creator or the universe (in 7 days by the way) can do? Not be offensive but that just doesn't impress me.

Manfer, again you're putting your own terms onto an omnipotent God. Logical contradiction here. If omnipotence requires one to do all things, it is not omnipotence.

[Manfer84]

Gabrielman:

“Manfer the first thing is that God is doing everything He can to make you see the light”

Really? That's all he can do? Talking to me through an old book, getting people that already believe in him to talk to me and working in my life trough “mysterious ways”? That's all the all-powerful, omniscient and omnipotent creator or the universe (in 7 days by the way) can do? Not be offensive but that just doesn't impress me.

Manfer, again you're putting your own terms onto an omnipotent God. Logical contradiction here. If omnipotence requires one to do all things, it is not omnipotence.

I never said he should do everything, (please quote where I said it, Joke!! ) I´m just not impress with what he has done. I think (I'm gonna judge God in the next part so watch out!) he could do a better job with all the “elements” he has at his disposal.

[DannyM]

I never said he should do everything, (please quote where I said it, Joke!! ) I´m just not impress with what he has done. I think (I'm gonna judge God in the next part so watch out!) he could do a better job with all the “elements” he has at his disposal.

Very funny.

You cannot judge God. You first have to be aware of everything He does and does not do. Do you know what God does?