I'll convert to islam if you can show me.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:52 pm

Mastermind wrote:So instead of going on the crusades and keeping the turks at bay, they should've just let them overrun east europe and convert it to islam? Another brilliant post by AttentionKMartShoppers. They're becoming standard.

You think the crusades were the will of God? You think they were generally not a mistake?

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:19 am

Felgar wrote:
Mastermind wrote:So instead of going on the crusades and keeping the turks at bay, they should've just let them overrun east europe and convert it to islam? Another brilliant post by AttentionKMartShoppers. They're becoming standard.
You think the crusades were the will of God? You think they were generally not a mistake?

They were mostly done because the kings were greedy(apart from a few of the crusades, like the first), but they are also the reason why I'm not wearing a turban right now. I'd hardly call them a "mistake" no matter how many atheists whine.

seedling · Post by **seedling** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:06 am

Hi vvart,

Seedling you need tighter analysis, for example the Pharisees figured out that Jesus was saying he is God.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe they were upset because he said he was the "son of God." Perhaps in those times and in that culture that was equivalent to saying "I am equal to God." I am familiar with all the verses ... I don't see in any one of them where Jesus is alluding to the fact that he is the Almighty God.

By the way Paul addresses why Jesus's portrayed himself as a servant of God while being God at the same time.

Can you tell me where these verses are? Not that I agree with Paul on all things he writes, but I would like to read them.

Also since your not taking scripture seriously, I can see why it might be hard for you to realize the obvious.

It's not that I don't take it seriously ... I take the spirit of the words very seriously. It's the actual words themselves and the contrived conclusions that the writer wants to lead you to that I reject.

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:57 am

They were mostly done because the kings were greedy(apart from a few of the crusades, like the first), but they are also the reason why I'm not wearing a turban right now. I'd hardly call them a "mistake" no matter how many atheists whine.

Sorry, Mastermind, but your information is wrong. Islam expansion was stopped in Europe in VIII-IX century. The first Crusade, fanatically promoted by the pope Urban II himself, took place at the very end of XI century and the effect of Crusades was in fact the contrary that you point out, since Islam, attacked without reason or provocation stirred up and revoked the privileges that Christians use to enjoy in their territory.

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:09 am

Oops, double posting... sorry

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:32 am

Hello,

I've read several English translations of the Qur'an and I don't believe that the religion of Islam brings anything new, with the exception of serious contradictions of past revelations, i.e., Jesus didn't die on the cross, He was "just" a prophet, etc., and it also brings inaccuracies of past revelations.

The Qur'an's alleged rejection of the Trinity is not what it seems. As you know, the Trinity is Father, Son/Word and Holy Spirit, One Being in three "persons." This correct Trinity cannot be found in the Qur'an. What I see in the Qur'an is a rejection of a belief in three different Gods and Christians reject this as well.

I also see a misconception of the birth of Jesus and the term "Son." The commentary in my Qur'an says that Christians believe that God "knew" Mary in the carnal sense and produced Jesus. God forbid!!!

I find it hard to believe that Abraham and Jesus, et al, would bow down to the Kaaba, kiss that black stone and throw rocks at the "devil" as Muslims are asked to do.

I think we have to look at the founder of Islam and compare him to Jesus. Looking at the words and message of Jesus in the Gospel, could anyone follow a man, Muhammad, who said this?

"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)

And these verses in the Qur'an bother me:

"They say, 'Accept the Jewish or the Christian faith and you shall be rightly guided.' Say, 'By no means! We believe in the faith of Abraham, the upright one. He was no idolater.'" (Surah 2:135)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29)

"The Christians say: The Christ is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them." (Sura 9:30)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

Some Muslims have told me that these verses in the Qur'an were only for a particular point in history or to be used in self-defense, but I think if we look at Islamic history, we will see that Muslims have used these verses not in self-defense, but for aggression.

While it is true that some Christians have committed atrocities in the past, those atrocities cannot be supported by the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels.

If you would like to see a video presentation on this subject by the well-known ex-Muslims, Ergun and Emir Caner, you can see it here:

http://www.johnankerberg.com/TV/ankjasr ... .html#IPR1

AttentionKMartShoppers · Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:28 pm

Sorry, Mastermind, but your information is wrong. Islam expansion was stopped in Europe in VIII-IX century. The first Crusade, fanatically promoted by the pope Urban II himself, took place at the very end of XI century and the effect of Crusades was in fact the contrary that you point out, since Islam, attacked without reason or provocation stirred up and revoked the privileges that Christians use to enjoy in their territory.

The popes basically told everyone what to do...by saying they'd get a one way ticket to heaven, passing by made up purgatory... Ironically, though, the 4th Crusade helped the Muslims invade Eastern Europe (though only a little bit). The Italians paid for the Crusaders to basically destroy Constantinople....so the Muslims a little later had an easy win.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:30 pm

Ok the humbled verse will take some time for me to find, but thats not a hard conclusion to come to once we establish that Jesus was God.

"My Lord and My God!" Thomas said. (John 21:28 The Book)

Here we see Thomas calling Jesus God and Jesus doesn't deny it.

"Since David called him 'Lord', how can he be merely his son?"

I'm inclined to believe when David says the word Lord he's referring to God.

And Naturally we have Paul. Paul claims to have been taught by Lord Jesus Christ and seen Him. I don't see how you can throw aside what Paul says and still believe in the Gospel.

"Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can't." (Colossians 1:16)

There, now i'm aware you can twist anything to what you want it to be and most people who deny Christ's divinity also don't view what Paul says as the Word of God, but thats your problem as the scriptures don't lie

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:54 pm

Sorry, Mastermind, but your information is wrong. Islam expansion was stopped in Europe in VIII-IX century. The first Crusade, fanatically promoted by the pope Urban II himself, took place at the very end of XI century and the effect of Crusades was in fact the contrary that you point out, since Islam, attacked without reason or provocation stirred up and revoked the privileges that Christians use to enjoy in their territory.

Are you kidding me? Please revisit your history. Jerusalem was under Saracen control and then the turks took it from them. While the saracens were tolerant, the turks weren't, and a christian pilgrim was no longer welcomed there. That's one of the main reasons the crusade started. The privileges were revoked FIRST, then West Europe got pissed off and invaded.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:26 am

vvart wrote: And Naturally we have Paul. Paul claims to have been taught by Lord Jesus Christ and seen Him. I don't see how you can throw aside what Paul says and still believe in the Gospel.

"Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can't." (Colossians 1:16)

There, now i'm aware you can twist anything to what you want it to be and most people who deny Christ's divinity also don't view what Paul says as the Word of God, but thats your problem as the scriptures don't lie

Yup, absolutely vvart.

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:22 am

Are you kidding me? Please revisit your history.

I will. Please do so yourself.

seedling · Post by **seedling** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:51 am

I like this image Paul uses in Corinthians describing us as the body of Christ … I was thinking though, that all human beings are the body of Christ (the Sent One). All of humanity. We are all "sent" for each other. “For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, whether Muslim, Buddhist, black or white or brown, atheist or deist, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit (the spirit of this Life).” 1 Cor. 12:13, Updated Version. “That there would be no division in the body, but that the members would have the same care for one another.” (1 Cor. 12:25).

J316's post on another thread got me thinking … we are all at different stages of growth. We are all individuals, each experiencing this life in our own unique way. Why slap a label on ourselves when next year we could be someone completely different than we are now? But our collective experience, our collective knowledge is powerful. That's why we need to share our experiences … our REAL experiences. Not just some party line or old recording. Every insight is valuable, for you never know where it will lead.

I spent some time with my Muslim neighbors last night. We didn't argue religion or talk about Jehovah v. Allah, the Qu'ran v. the Bible. We talked about raising children and some of the problems kids have with other kids, growing up, etc. We shared our childhood experiences … we talked with the kids. We talked about growing up in a US city, and TV addiction and having and not having friends, and what it feels like to be called bad names and what to do … We talked about some very human truths and dilemmas… and there was a “Spirit” among us … the “Son of Man” was there. We were the collective Sons of Man, sharing Light and growing. And the Light pierces the darkness, and we are no longer afraid.

In the past I have wondered what purpose my life serves … there are many answers to this question I guess, but at that particular point I remembered these verses about the members in the “body” … and how if one member doesn't function, it hinders the body. Even the smallest member is needed. Last night after work I was feeling in a particularly empty mood and was tempted to go out with my coworkers for beers. But I could see that at that moment, it would have been a waste. Instead I came home and visited the neighbors and realized that that was the most important thing that I could have been doing in that moment … we all have something to give each other to help encourage one another through this life here on earth. Something real. As we pour out what we have, we also receive. And that giving and receiving, that sharing, produces Light. And this Light causes the body to grow in Love. And this is a confirmation of Life. And with this Life, one isn't concerned with defining oneself as a Muslim or Christian, "atheist" or "deist." Muslim or Christian just are different flavors of a very human recipe … to define someone as an atheist or deist is foolish … one cannot prove or disprove either … it is truly foolish. But the Spirit gives Life. Human beings have the ability to open to this … Spirit of Life. And if one lives this way, they are not concerned what happens to them when they die. Because they have truly lived.

The edge · Post by **The edge** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:58 am

seedling wrote:I like this image Paul uses in Corinthians describing us as the body of Christ … I was thinking though, that all human beings are the body of Christ (the Sent One). All of humanity. We are all "sent" for each other. “For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, whether Muslim, Buddhist, black or white or brown, atheist or deist, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit (the spirit of this Life).” 1 Cor. 12:13, Updated Version. “That there would be no division in the body, but that the members would have the same care for one another.” (1 Cor. 12:25).

J316's post on another thread got me thinking … we are all at different stages of growth. We are all individuals, each experiencing this life in our own unique way. Why slap a label on ourselves when next year we could be someone completely different than we are now? But our collective experience, our collective knowledge is powerful. That's why we need to share our experiences … our REAL experiences. Not just some party line or old recording. Every insight is valuable, for you never know where it will lead.

I spent some time with my Muslim neighbors last night. We didn't argue religion or talk about Jehovah v. Allah, the Qu'ran v. the Bible. We talked about raising children and some of the problems kids have with other kids, growing up, etc. We shared our childhood experiences … we talked with the kids. We talked about growing up in a US city, and TV addiction and having and not having friends, and what it feels like to be called bad names and what to do … We talked about some very human truths and dilemmas… and there was a “Spirit” among us … the “Son of Man” was there. We were the collective Sons of Man, sharing Light and growing. And the Light pierces the darkness, and we are no longer afraid.

In the past I have wondered what purpose my life serves … there are many answers to this question I guess, but at that particular point I remembered these verses about the members in the “body” … and how if one member doesn't function, it hinders the body. Even the smallest member is needed. Last night after work I was feeling in a particularly empty mood and was tempted to go out with my coworkers for beers. But I could see that at that moment, it would have been a waste. Instead I came home and visited the neighbors and realized that that was the most important thing that I could have been doing in that moment … we all have something to give each other to help encourage one another through this life here on earth. Something real. As we pour out what we have, we also receive. And that giving and receiving, that sharing, produces Light. And this Light causes the body to grow in Love. And this is a confirmation of Life. And with this Life, one isn't concerned with defining oneself as a Muslim or Christian, "atheist" or "deist." Muslim or Christian just are different flavors of a very human recipe … to define someone as an atheist or deist is foolish … one cannot prove or disprove either … it is truly foolish. But the Spirit gives Life. Human beings have the ability to open to this … Spirit of Life. And if one lives this way, they are not concerned what happens to them when they die. Because they have truly lived.

I was a Taoist/Buddhist by upbringing, but had never really believe in it as what's being practise at home has departed from the original teachings which I was quite ignorant of. Then I went thru a phase when I shared ur view....& I eagerly refute anyone that tells me life have no meaning apart from God.
But, when God showed me one night, that all thing could not exist without His handi-work, I adopted a completely different perspective of life.
Recognising that I'm a created being gave me no choice but to live out the purpose I've been created for.
Obviously, the recognition of God's presence demands that I must give up being an athiest. My logic had also led me to believe in only 1 God who's eternally good & infallible. This led to my narrowing down to Christianity & Islam from the mainstream faith.

As a result, I can no longer agree that life is all about the pooling of experience from all, for the greater consciousness.

seedling · Post by **seedling** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 11:09 am

But, when God showed me one night, that all thing could not exist without His handi-work, I adopted a completely different perspective of life.
Recognising that I'm a created being gave me no choice but to live out the purpose I've been created for.

Yes, I believe that all things cannot exist without the Creator, and I am a created being. And yes, I agree, we need to live out the purpose that we were was created for.

As a result, I can no longer agree that life is all about the pooling of experience from all, for the greater consciousness.

But isn't this a part of it? And an important one? Jesus said to love one another. How do you love someone? You share what is most precious to you ... what you have discovered in life, what you have learned, what has touched your heart. The Creator is in us all ... he made us ... the Kingdom of Heaven is within ... we need to find it and share it. That's what Jesus did.

kateliz · Post by **kateliz** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:16 am

And I thought this thread would be light! "I'll read this one first and save the hardest for last," yeah right! *sigh* Okay, first of all seedling, you can in fact prove which religion is right, and doing so you find it does matter which one you believe in. Hmmm, can you guess which one I'm referring to?

I swear, we need to have a permanent post on here with the facts of Christianity's reality, because this just keeps coming up! I want to fight the fight once, and be done with it, but noooo! I'll be doing it the rest of my life! History proves Christianity. Biblical prophecy, (and NO, it's NOT like Nostradomus!!!) proves Christianity. Personal experience, (reliable, not whack-o experiences,) proves Christianity. When the End Times come, (in not too many years,) it will prove Christianity along with all that follows it. The Bible as a historical document, (the document side as well as historical,) proves Christianity. All roads lead to Rome! If you're going to quote the Bible, maybe you need a different version:

seedling wrote:“For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, whether Muslim, Buddhist, black or white or brown, atheist or deist, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit (the spirit of this Life).” 1 Cor. 12:13, Updated Version. “

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. And try this one: I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord." except by the Holy Spirit. That's from the same chapter you quoted saying it supports "that all human beings are the body of Christ," 1 Corinthians 12:3. How can you, according to that verse, be in the body of Christ not believing in Him as the Christ?

And there is so much more in life, and in our spiritual lives and relationship to God, then humans sharing human things with each other. I get what you're saying, and I think I used to think a little like that, or I thought a little like something that's a little like that (

) but frankly, it's pretty shallow. What I think you might be seeing is that every human was given a soul and a spirit, and when we communicate with each other these things are involved. Madame Guyon and Father La Combe, being Christians who walked in the Spirit, had experiences that I'm sure you'll get a lot out of. In trying to look up Father La Combe's name, (I thought it was Fenelon- I was wrong!) God graciously gave me, after quickly scanning two or three other spots, all randomly, the exact part of the book where this is mentioned! He's so Kind!

During this extraordinary sickness, which continued more than six months, the Lord gradually taught me that there was another manner of conversing amoung souls wholly His, than by speech. Thou madest me conceive, O divine Word, that as Thou art every speaking and operating in a soul, though therein Thou appearest in profound silence; so there was also a way of communication in Thy creatures, in an ineffable silence. I heard then a language which before had been unknown to me. I gradually perceived, when Father La Combe entered, that I could speak no more. There was formed in my soul the same kind of silence toward him, as was formed in it in regard to God. I comprehended that God was willing to show me that men might in this life learn the language of angels. I was gradually reduced to speak to him only in silence. It was then that we understood each other in God, after a manner unutterable and divine. Our hearts spoke to each other, communicating a grace which no words can express. It was like a new country, both for him and for me; but so divine that I cannot describe it. At first this was done in a manner so perceptible, that is to say, God penetrated us with Himself in a manner so pure and so sweet, that we passed hours in this profound silence, always communicative, without being able to utter one word. It was in this that we learned, by our own experience, the operations of the heavenly Word to reduce souls into unity with itself, and what purity one may arrive at in this life. It was given me to communicate this way to other good souls, but with this difference: I did nothing but communicate to them the grace with which they were filled, while near me in this sacred silence, which infused into them an extraordinary strength and grace; but I received nothing from them; whereas with Father La Combe there was a flow and return of communication of grace, which he received from me, and I from him, in the greatest purity.

This is from Madame Guyon's autobiography, Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ. Might this kind of communication betwixt souls, (spirits?) be far more divine than that which you mentioned? Aim for this instead, for it is greater and all the more worthwhile. And I say "aim" as in go to God and His Christ, for it is He who gives such things to His true Children, who are His Children through His first Son, by them becoming Brothers and Sister of Him.

Evidence for God from Science

I'll convert to islam if you can show me.

Poetic_Soul, Converting to Islam