Jesus Death

[Manfer84]

Zoegirl:

“You aren't impressed by someone who sacrifices himself?”

I'm impressed with people that selflessly sacrifice themselves. I don't consider the whole Jesus thing the big sacrifice everyone of think it is, why? Because of what the definition sacrifice is:

Answer.com:
a. Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim.
b. Something so forfeited.
c. Relinquishment of something at less than its presumed value.
d. Something so relinquished.
e. A loss so sustained.
If my English is correct, sacrifice is always tied to losing something, what did God loose with the whole Jesus thing?
NOTE: I already asked this and the answer I got was that I was looking from the wrong side of the fence; I should focus on the receiving end of the sacrifice.

“Stop focusing on this bizarre idea that conquering death isn't meaningful (or has no value)”

If you or I conquer death it would be something INCREDIBLE, but is it incredible for a God to do so? It's like saying that it's incredible for you to blink.

“Now whether you believe it or not, this is what scriptures describes: We are enemies of God....we have, each of us, established ourselves as God instead of Him. We have declared ourselves free from Him. That has placed us outside of a relationship with Him.

Being alienated from God, deserving to be separated from Him, He placed Himself (without sin) in our position, to be declared Guilty before His own Father and accept the punishment and wrath from sin.

Yes, He is God, Yes He can do that....why that doesn't impress you I don't know....but focus on this....HE didn't need do...He choose to. Big difference. He wants a relationship with us however, He is a JUST God.”

It was God's will for us to become enemies of him (because if something happens it's because it's his will right?), his will was for us to be outside a relationship with him, his will was for us to be practically doomed for all eternity, then he saves us and wants us to praise him like there was no tomorrow?
It would be like me knowing you are going to get tortured to the brink of death, letting it happen, capable of stopping it but not doing so, then “curing” you and expect you to live for me. Sorry but I don´t roll that way.

[RickD]

Zoegirl:

“You aren't impressed by someone who sacrifices himself?”

I'm impressed with people that selflessly sacrifice themselves. I don't consider the whole Jesus thing the big sacrifice everyone of think it is, why? Because of what the definition sacrifice is:

Answer.com:
a. Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim.
b. Something so forfeited.
c. Relinquishment of something at less than its presumed value.
d. Something so relinquished.
e. A loss so sustained.
If my English is correct, sacrifice is always tied to losing something, what did God loose with the whole Jesus thing?
NOTE: I already asked this and the answer I got was that I was looking from the wrong side of the fence; I should focus on the receiving end of the sacrifice.

“Stop focusing on this bizarre idea that conquering death isn't meaningful (or has no value)”

If you or I conquer death it would be something INCREDIBLE, but is it incredible for a God to do so? It's like saying that it's incredible for you to blink.

“Now whether you believe it or not, this is what scriptures describes: We are enemies of God....we have, each of us, established ourselves as God instead of Him. We have declared ourselves free from Him. That has placed us outside of a relationship with Him.

Being alienated from God, deserving to be separated from Him, He placed Himself (without sin) in our position, to be declared Guilty before His own Father and accept the punishment and wrath from sin.

Yes, He is God, Yes He can do that....why that doesn't impress you I don't know....but focus on this....HE didn't need do...He choose to. Big difference. He wants a relationship with us however, He is a JUST God.”

It was God's will for us to become enemies of him (because if something happens it's because it's his will right?), his will was for us to be outside a relationship with him, his will was for us to be practically doomed for all eternity, then he saves us and wants us to praise him like there was no tomorrow?
It would be like me knowing you are going to get tortured to the brink of death, letting it happen, capable of stopping it but not doing so, then “curing” you and expect you to live for me. Sorry but I don´t roll that way.

Maybe your letting me be tortured to the brink of death, would make me realize that I can't stop being tortured on my own. At that brink of death when you rescue me, I realize that you are the only one who could save me. Maybe you wouldn't EXPECT me to live for you, but, maybe I would choose to, because you came to me. Not because I came to the realization on my own.

[jlay]

I´m just not impress with what he has done. I think (I'm gonna judge God in the next part so watch out!) he could do a better job with all the “elements” he has at his disposal.

I'm going to challenge you here Manfer because you are not being consistent. You just told me about how amazing life is, because it is so rare, and unusual. You are willing to worship (yes that is what you are doing) nature for random, purposeless events. In other words, you stand in awe of life by your own subjective standards.
Yet, when the wonder of the cosmos and life is credited to God, suddenly you are unimpressed.

As far as judging God, I've said it till I'm blue in the face. God's plan settles the issue of making you fit for His Kingdom, while at the same time complying with His nature and character. You really sound trite when you claim you have a better way. Of all the knowledge in the universe, how much of it do you possess? Thomas Edison said we know less than a fraction of anything in the greater scheme of things. You can certainly question god. However, we can question your qualifications to do so.

It is real easy for the average joe to look at an airplane and say, "the passenger compartment should be bigger. Or the wings should be shorter," or a myriad of other complaints. Without the proper knowledge they are unaware that their complaints are foolishness. The slightest adjustment to one factor or another could prevent the plane from getting airborne, or cause it to come crashing to the ground. That is just a plane. How much more complex is our universe, and our very lives?

I'm sorry but I see a lot of contradiciton in your recent post. You ask how can one be open, and in the next breath you say you see no reason as to why someone should. You reduce faith in God to some experiment you "tried," because of who you were dating. Sorry, I've explained how that is nonsense.

Your problem with God's foreknowledge doesn't make Him not exist. Not anymore than my disdain for Obama's policies can make him not exist. You don't like it that God knows the outcome. So far all you've convinced me of is that you don't like God, and that somehow the existence of God somehow hangs on your approval or disapproval. Essentially you are saying, "if God will do what I want, the way I want, when I want, then I'll believe." Who is God in that scenario? Seriously?

Is it possible that God can have forknowledge, and man still have free will? Yes. Remember, you said God can do anything. It is a real mind bender, but we've had several threads on it, and it is worth a look.

Not be offensive but that just doesn't impress me.

I asked you earlier in the thread, what you had to offer God, and what God owes you? You said nothing. But your answer here infers that God owes you something. That He has to "impress" you, for you to believe He exist.

He already scored your test, he knows whether you pass or fail, but he wants you to take the course anyway?

How and why is this a reason to reject God?

Also the thing is I don't mind for the grave to be it, I'm not afraid for my “eternal soul” I don't believe in any kind of afterlife,

Try not believing in gravity and stepping off a 20 story building. Will your lack of belief affect reality?
The facts are, you are going to die (10 out of 10 die), and you are going to face God on judgment day, whether you like Him, or believe in Him.
Based on your contradictions and other flawed thinking, I hope you really count the costs of your positions. Eternity is a long time to be wrong.

I'll try and address the value of the sacrifice.
If God exist, then we know He is beyond our ability to fully comprehend. I mean we are talking about the one who created the cosmos here, and all the laws that regulate it. So, if we take this position, please explain why God should be concerned with you?
There is no point in trying to convince you of what God gave, because you are convinced that God doesn't really do anything through the gift and sacrifice of Jesus. You just have this pre set opinion of who God is, (a wrong one in my opinion) and thus are arriving at your conclusions based on this prejudice. I've already offered you several explanations. You are the guy, at the edge of losing everything, that just had a billionaire offer to pay off his debt. And you say, "No thanks, it really doesn't cost you anything. Maybe if you had less money, it would mean more, and I would accept it."

[Manfer84]

I never said he should do everything, (please quote where I said it, Joke!! ) I´m just not impress with what he has done. I think (I'm gonna judge God in the next part so watch out!) he could do a better job with all the “elements” he has at his disposal.

Very funny.

You cannot judge God. You first have to be aware of everything He does and does not do. Do you know what God does?

Danny M.
No I don't. I don't expect to either.
But if God is suppose to loves us as much as all you guys say, shouldn´t he do everything in his power to do “right” by us, like every human parent does for his sons. I don´t think “this world” is the best thing an all-powerful being is capable of doing, but maybe is my fault for thinking he is capable of doing something better.
If you are wondering if I think I could do better. With my limited mind I don't think I could, but with all the resources God has at his disposal I could give it a decent shot.

[Manfer84]

Jlay:

“I'm going to challenge you here Manfer because you are not being consistent. You just told me about how amazing life is, because it is so rare, and unusual. You are willing to worship (yes that is what you are doing) nature for random, purposeless events. In other words, you stand in awe of life by your own subjective standards.
Yet, when the wonder of the cosmos and life is credited to God, suddenly you are unimpressed.”

EXACTLY!! That's exactly what I want to say.
Would you be impressed by a guy with the abilities of Leonardo Da Vinci drawing a stick figure?

“we can question your qualifications to do so”.

Of course you can, have I implied that you couldn't?

“Your problem with God's foreknowledge doesn't make Him not exist”

I said I don´t believe in his existence, that doesn't mean he could not exist.

“But your answer here infers that God owes you something. That He has to "impress" you, for you to believe He exists.”

It does? Why? So you can only impress me if you owe me something?
I´m not asking him to impress me, you guys say I should be impressed.

“Try not believing in gravity and stepping off a 20 story building. Will your lack of belief affect reality?”

So by this you are saying that it's a reality that we have eternal souls, my friends that's what you believe. What you believe it's not reality.
Gravity is a reality, no one cannot “not believing in gravity” (sounds weird)

“you are going to face God on judgment day, whether you like Him, or believe in Him.”

According to what you believe.

“Eternity is a long time to be wrong.”

I'll say it again: According to what you believe.

“please explain why God should be concerned with you?”

I don't think He should be concerned about me, but I assume that if he decided to create me He should be concern about his creation. Wouldn't you? If I decide to create something I'm responsible for it right?

[Gabrielman]

Gabrielman:

“Manfer the first thing is that God is doing everything He can to make you see the light”

Really? That's all he can do? Talking to me through an old book, getting people that already believe in him to talk to me and working in my life trough “mysterious ways”? That's all the all-powerful, omniscient and omnipotent creator or the universe (in 7 days by the way) can do? Not be offensive but that just doesn't impress me.

“Here's how I see it, God knows before hand what you will do, yet if He were to just send you to hell before giving you a chance to choose then you would see that as unfair”

A chance to choose what? He already knows what you are going to choose or can you surprise him? I think not. So it's not a matter of doing the deed and be judge by it, God knows what you ARE going to do, not what you WOULD do. For him is like you already did it.
For what I understand it's just God will, which was set way before you were even born. He already scored your test, he knows whether you pass or fail, but he wants you to take the course anyway?
I ask you, how does he give us a fair chance, if he already knows where we are going to end up?

“The Bible states that once you are in hell there is no way out of it, so not once you are there you cannot come back.”
So the most loving father just forgets about his sons once they choose the wrong path, there is no way of coming back you said right? I think that's just wrong, but who am I to judge God!!!

If your son today tells you he no longer loves you, that you are dead to him and doesn't want anything to do with you, and leaves. Then after 60 years (imagine of course you are still alive) calls you and admits he was wrong and wants to enter your life again, you would let him right? You would never close your heart to him right? But apparently the all-time loving father would because once you die rejecting him he no longer cares about you, so his undying love is only undying while you are alive. Once you choose the last wrong path (dying without believe) he just doesn't love you anymore. Or is he suffering in heaven for all the people that are in hell?

You are trying to set things to how you think God should operate, think of it this way, He could just do nothing for you and let you rot in hell for all time, would you rather Him do that? It sounds like to me you are just trying to get Him to behave the way you want Him to, to conveniently cover yourself. You are basically saying that no matter what He should just force you into heaven anyway so that you don't have to do anything to get in. He already made it extremely easy, just accept His sacrifice on the cross and love Him and live for Him, that's all you have to do to get in. He already made an entire universe for us, gave us life and all we need to survive, what more do you want?

Okay about the test thing, hows this sound. I am a professor and I am handing out final exams, except I do not give exams to those who I say will fail because I say I know they will, so I will just give them a failing grade anyway and they won't get to graduate. So now I come to you with an exam and say "well you are going to fail the exam anyway so I am not going to let you take it". How would you feel then? The way you are talking I think you would just say, "Sure, fine." and that is that, but in reality I know you would think that is unfair and would like a chance to prove me wrong. So God gives you that chance, or would you rather just get cast into hell without your chance? Be reasonable about this now, I know that if God told me I was going to hell so He wouldn't let me try anyway I would argue that I should have a chance anyway to try and prove Him wrong.

So far as the eternal hell thing, you are given your chance, what more would you like? Some fail safe thing so you don't even have to do anything to get into heaven? God is just, your sins will stain you for all time when you die, if you don't accept the gift given to you FREELY on the cross. Once you die you die in sin and are lost in it, thus you cannot be with God if you are in sin. (sin cannot exist with God, and you have become sin, filled with it over a lifetime, therefore you cannot exist with God.) Then you go to hell, which is essentially being out of the presence of God, for all time because you have chosen to do so. It doesn't get any simpler than that, the Bible talks about this, a lot. Sin causes you to go to hell, God will forgive your sins if you want Him to, accept His gift of salvation, get into heaven. Or would you rather God make it so you cannot choose to sin or do any wrong at all, and have no will, and love Him because He forces you to? That is not what He wants, He wants you to love Him freely becuase you want to, not becuase He forces you to.

[jlay]

Would you be impressed by a guy with the abilities of Leonardo Da Vinci drawing a stick figure?

If he created the canvas, the paint, and the brush from nothing. you bet I would.
Do you know what a stick figure drawn by DaVinci would be worth today?

It does? Why? So you can only impress me if you owe me something?
I´m not asking him to impress me, you guys say I should be impressed.

No sir Manfer. Your own words were essentially that if God could demonstrate that Christ's death actually meant something, then you would be more inclined to believe. I can dig up your statement if you insist.

Gravity is a reality, no one cannot “not believing in gravity”

God is a reality, no one cannot, "not believe in God."

According to what you believe.

It has nothing to do with what I believe. It has to do with whether it is true.
Truth is not a preference.

I don't think He should be concerned about me, but I assume that if he decided to create me He should be concern about his creation. Wouldn't you? If I decide to create something I'm responsible for it right?

Why should God be concerned about His creation? If you create something, (which you can't, at least not from nothing) why would you assume concern would be a requirement? You are saying He SHOULD be. Please explain why.
If God created the entire known universe, why should He be concerned for you anymore than a spec of dust at the other side of the universe?
If you created something from nothing, what responsibility would you have to it? Couldn't you just wipe it from existance?

[Manfer84]

Well guys
I've been point out that I'm not using this forum according to the established rules, so I guess this is my last comment.
Thanks for everything and all the interesting points of view I have been able to see.

[B. W.]

I never said he should do everything, (please quote where I said it, Joke!! ) I´m just not impress with what he has done. I think (I'm gonna judge God in the next part so watch out!) he could do a better job with all the “elements” he has at his disposal.

Very funny.

You cannot judge God. You first have to be aware of everything He does and does not do. Do you know what God does?

Danny M. No I don't. I don't expect to either. But if God is suppose to loves us as much as all you guys say, shouldn´t he do everything in his power to do “right” by us, like every human parent does for his sons. I don´t think “this world” is the best thing an all-powerful being is capable of doing, but maybe is my fault for thinking he is capable of doing something better. If you are wondering if I think I could do better. With my limited mind I don't think I could, but with all the resources God has at his disposal I could give it a decent shot.

Manfre ... Our human definitions of love, how we define love, has in fact twisted what love really is and is about. People insert these warped definitions for love to define love. The characterization of love you seem to be asserting here is simply unbridled tolerance. To 'be loving' under this definition would make the word 'Love' mean unconditional tolerance. That is not what love means.

Let's apply this definition into what you wrote:

But if God is suppose to (unconditionally tolerate) us as much as all you guys say, shouldn´t he do everything in his power to do “right” by us, like every human parent does for his sons.

This statement you made contains a very selfish self justifying how dare I be mistreated ring to it. Love does not mean unconditional tolerance as that promotes unbridled selfish self centeredness. True love would not promote this but do what is necessary to remove this selfish streak from one.

God did what was right according to what is right unto himself. He proves himself God of perfect justice, perfect in all his ways, never doing iniquity, etc. The justice of his love would let you be able to make up your own mind on matters despite foreknowing all conclusions — he still lets a person come into the world, letting each come into his or her own, and can, without any injustice to His nature hold them to account. To deny this would make God unjust, and motivated by fear. How can the Lord really be all powerful if he only made automatons and only coerced? Instead, He sent his word and gave us a choice to either remain selfishly self justifying and self absorb or become reconciled back to him.

Christ death, burial, and resurrection exposed this selfishness we all have and causes us to make up our minds who do we want to truly love more. The justice of God's kind of Love provides that choice, warns of consequences, pleads to us to return, changes those that do hear, and rejects those that do not. He is asking you to return to him. If he forced you — that would not be just to His own standards of Love. He ask and pleads, warns and extols, woes, implores for you to hear and return to the original design he had in mind that will give real purpose, freedom, and meaning to your life.
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[DannyM]

But if God is suppose to loves us as much as all you guys say, shouldn´t he do everything in his power to do “right” by us, like every human parent does for his sons. I don´t think “this world” is the best thing an all-powerful being is capable of doing, but maybe is my fault for thinking he is capable of doing something better.
If you are wondering if I think I could do better. With my limited mind I don't think I could, but with all the resources God has at his disposal I could give it a decent shot.

This is such an age-old misconception that I'm amazed it survives in sceptical thought. Actually, I'm NOT that amazed; I SHOULD be amazed, but I'm not. Are you saying that God has moral obligations? I think this is what you are saying. God has no moral obligation to a creation He might not have created. And since there are an infinite "best possible worlds" then your point falls down even further. God could not have made the best of all worlds, for with infinite possible worlds no world actually created could be the best possible world.

If someone is intentionally a source of good things, you would say that that person is as such good. Correct? Questioning God's obligations, when He might not have even BOTHERED with creation, seems to me to be a little unreasonable.

[jlay]

He who moderates least, moderates best.

But if God is suppose to loves us as much as all you guys say, shouldn´t he do everything in his power to do “right” by us, like every human parent does for his sons. I don´t think “this world” is the best thing an all-powerful being is capable of doing, but maybe is my fault for thinking he is capable of doing something better.

Good questions. However, I am going to show you why you start with a faulty premise.
You are making assumptions about God's love. I'll defer to BW here. Great comments.
Taking into consideration what the Bible spells out in regard to God's nature and character and that He will not violate such, please state why God has not, "done everything in his power to do “right” by us."

Regarding the world. You make a very good point. This world isn't the best thing an all-powerful being is capable of. At least not in its current form. In fact the Bible says that very thing. Did you know that? Did you know the bible states that the world was in a state of perfection, but something happened to cause it to be in the state it is today? Let us suppose for a moment that there is no god. Who is responsbile for the majority of suffering and problems in the world?
Even in the worlds current state, it is still the only known place where life exist. The ONLY place. Whether you think it is an accident or a creation, it is perfectly tuned in thousands of areas, and has been, and allows a self-aware being to observe it and state that, "it aint all that." Whether you are a believer or not, one could rightly use the word miraculous when considering the odds of any life, much less human life arrising.

I heard a minister define mercy as God refusing to identify with anything that leads you away from His will.

[B. W.]

He who moderates least, moderates best.

But if God is suppose to loves us as much as all you guys say, shouldn´t he do everything in his power to do “right” by us, like every human parent does for his sons. I don´t think “this world” is the best thing an all-powerful being is capable of doing, but maybe is my fault for thinking he is capable of doing something better.

Good questions. However, I am going to show you why you start with a faulty premise.
You are making assumptions about God's love. I'll defer to BW here. Great comments.
Taking into consideration what the Bible spells out in regard to God's nature and character and that He will not violate such, please state why God has not, "done everything in his power to do “right” by us."

Regarding the world. You make a very good point. This world isn't the best thing an all-powerful being is capable of. At least not in its current form. In fact the Bible says that very thing. Did you know that? Did you know the bible states that the world was in a state of perfection, but something happened to cause it to be in the state it is today? Let us suppose for a moment that there is no god. Who is responsbile for the majority of suffering and problems in the world?
Even in the worlds current state, it is still the only known place where life exist. The ONLY place. Whether you think it is an accident or a creation, it is perfectly tuned in thousands of areas, and has been, and allows a self-aware being to observe it and state that, "it aint all that." Whether you are a believer or not, one could rightly use the word miraculous when considering the odds of any life, much less human life arrising.

I heard a minister define mercy as God refusing to identify with anything that leads you away from His will.

To add to jlay's comments, Manfer - what standard of moral judgment can you use that define the current world as not perfect if there are no objective grounds that moral judgment can be based on?
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[Canuckster1127]

Well guys
I've been point out that I'm not using this forum according to the established rules, so I guess this is my last comment.
Thanks for everything and all the interesting points of view I have been able to see.

Manfer,

I believe you were warned and asked to conform to the discussion guidelines of our board. You are welcome to participate if you do so within our guidelines.

If you will not, then choosing to leave rather than waiting to be banned is certainly an honorable decision and I would hope that in the future should things develop for you to where you'd like to return you should know that you are free to do so.

Regards,

bart