Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
catherine
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by catherine »

Byblos wrote: Without getting into the whole premise of this thread, I just wanted to comment on your analogy of the drowning person here and take it even one step further as this is how I've always thought about it. The man with the ring (I presume you mean God here) is not simply standing there waiting for someone to ask Him to throw the ring to them. He really and actually tosses a ring to everyone, regardless of whether or not they asked for it. It then becomes the drowning person's decision to hang on to the ring or not. If they do hang to it they are saved. Is it by their own effort, can they boast about saving themselves? Of course not, they were drowning. But they did cooperate with the saving process and that's what God requires of us, our cooperation.

The next question that usually comes up after that is well, why do some people cooperate and some don't (if one is not a Calvinist that is). And that is one of the oldest questions that has plagued theologians for ages, to which no completely satisfactory answer is yet found.

You make some great points here. I can think of some verses that support this:

Acts 17:27 ''God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.''

Rev 3:20 ''Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.''
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by catherine »

Kurieuo,

You also make some good points and I must say that the case for universal salvation does not seem to be supported by scripture as much as limited salvation is. I don't think I'll get to the bottom of all this and so it remains for me to trust that God is in control and knows what He is doing and whatever He does is out of love.

I would just draw your attention to this comment you made:

''Would you prefer to be wrong telling someone that they don't need Christ or His forgiveness because we are all saved, or would you prefer to be wrong telling someone they need Christ and should receive His forgiveness otherwise they will be eternally cast out from God. I believe the second, but certainly hope I am wrong as it means all the more people will be saved. But that is sadly not what I am led to believe when I read Christ's words or Scripture.''

The UR (unviersal reconciliation ie universal salvation) 'movement' that I know of, with it's various groups and organisations, NEVER states that we don't need Christ. The whole message of the Bible is that mankind needs redeeming from the fall of Adam, otherwise we all die and stay dead! (well that's what I believe, as opposed to still being alive in a spirit realm). NONE of us could hope to live again if it weren't for Christ's ransom sacrifice. So the 'good news' aspect of Christ's death is still as vital and important to convey to people, even if you believe we will all be ok in the end. For one thing, people can come into the Kingdom now (in a spiritual sense) and so benefit from God's blessings, the Holy Spirit etc. Maybe they'll be storing up treasures in heaven as well.
Someone who thinks this is all there is so 'live life how you want to live it', is most likely going to live their life differently if they know this isn't all there is. In fact, doesn't 'the Good News' seem like it really is 'good news' if it were the case that everyone will be saved and reconciled to God, rather than the usual claim that most people will spend eternity in hell (or in the lake of fire) being tormented for ever and ever and only a lucky few will make it into paradise? That aint really good news to be telling people. y:O2

Anyhow, thank you every one for your feedback. I'll continue to ponder these things for the foreseeable future no doubt....... :lol:
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by B. W. »

catherine wrote:...The UR (unviersal reconciliation ie universal salvation) 'movement' that I know of, with it's various groups and organisations, NEVER states that we don't need Christ. The whole message of the Bible is that mankind needs redeeming from the fall of Adam, otherwise we all die and stay dead! (well that's what I believe, as opposed to still being alive in a spirit realm). NONE of us could hope to live again if it weren't for Christ's ransom sacrifice. So the 'good news' aspect of Christ's death is still as vital and important to convey to people, even if you believe we will all be ok in the end. For one thing, people can come into the Kingdom now (in a spiritual sense) and so benefit from God's blessings, the Holy Spirit etc. Maybe they'll be storing up treasures in heaven as well.

Someone who thinks this is all there is so 'live life how you want to live it', is most likely going to live their life differently if they know this isn't all there is. In fact, doesn't 'the Good News' seem like it really is 'good news' if it were the case that everyone will be saved and reconciled to God, rather than the usual claim that most people will spend eternity in hell (or in the lake of fire) being tormented for ever and ever and only a lucky few will make it into paradise? That aint really good news to be telling people.

Anyhow, thank you every one for your feedback. I'll continue to ponder these things for the foreseeable future no doubt......
Hi Catherine your conclusion presents a logical contradiction as it presents that there is no need for Christ for the doctrine of universal salvation to be true — yet it is important to still preach the gospel. Why, if as you stated - all be ok in the end, would there be any need to preach him at all? Did Jesus die just to infrom everyone all is well? Does the bible really teach this?

Let's see...

John 3:36 - He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Ecclesiastes 3:14, 17 - I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him. ..17 I said in my heart, "God shall judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."


Since what God does regarding matters of eternity and judgment (context of Ecclesiastes 3:11-22) then his wrath also last forever without end…

Ecclesiastes 8:8 - No one has power over the spirit to retain the spirit, And no one has power in the day of death. There is no release from that war, and wickedness will not deliver those who are given to it.

A person's wickedness will not free them from the wrath of God…

Ecclesiastes 8:12 - Though a sinner does evil a hundred times, and his days are prolonged, yet I surely know that it will be well with those who fear God, who fear before Him. 13 But it will not be well with the wicked; nor will he prolong his days, which are as a shadow, because he does not fear before God.

The wicked will not prolong their days…

Ecclesiastes 12:14- For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.

Jeremiah 17:10 - I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

Ephesians 5:5, 6, 7- For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 5 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light


Universalism is mere empty words and the injunction is for us not to become deceived into thinking all will inherit the kingdom of Christ and God because NOT all will.

Nahum 1:3 The LORD is long-suffering, and great in power, and will by no means clear the guilty; the LORD, in the whirlwind and in the storm is His way, and the clouds are the dust of His feet. JPS

God will by no means clear the guilty… those that reject Christ will be rejected by God forever.

Galatians 6:7-8 - Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

How can unbelievers sow to the sprit since they have not the spirit to sow too?

John 3:16 states whosoever believes — there is a qualification. Jesus paid the price for our sins — took these open himself and forgives only them that place their faith in him. He died for the sins of the world placing a choice before all humanity. Those that come unto him will be saved and those that refuse will be lost…

Psalms 11:5 - The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.


God does hate. There are two kinds of humanity's children mentioned in the bible...

1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest….

Jesus came too…in his own words...

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

And again…

Ephesians 5:5, 6, 7- For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 5 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.

Mat 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.


God's wrath is eternal so is his punishment -

Bible quotes not otherwise cited are from the NKJV
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catherine
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by catherine »

Hi B.W, thanks for your feedback. You make some interesting points. It's probably easier if I comment directly after the points you make. This helps my memory, as I forget what I want to say very quickly. :ebiggrin:
B. W. wrote:
Hi Catherine your conclusion presents a logical contradiction as it presents that there is no need for Christ for the doctrine of universal salvation to be true UR is claiming that you are not penalised for not knowing about Christ or accepting Him, in this life. Christ is still in control behind the scenes, whether you know it or not. — yet it is important to still preach the gospel. Why, if as you stated - all be ok in the end, would there be any need to preach him at all? Did Jesus die just to infrom everyone all is well? Does the bible really teach this? The preaching of the 'good news' is necessary to bring people into the Kingdom now. Those who are 'in Christ' and take part in the first resurrection, will be the co rulers with Christ. Also, those who accept Christ in this life will have a better life now (spiritually). Those who don't accept Christ will have to undergo punishment and pain. Surely it's worth warning people so that they don't have to learn the hard way.

Let's see...

John 3:36 - He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." 'Aionios Zoe' may actually mean 'life pertaining to the age', not really 'everlasting', although we know that eventually, we will have life that doesn't end, because other scriptures tell us we will put on immortalitiy. That 'aionios' life is available now and in the ages to come. Many or most rather, miss out on 'life' the way God intends it: 'this is aionios life, that they should know you the only true God and Jesus Christ who you sent' John 17:3. And of course we know that God's wrath does come to an end eventually: See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

Ecclesiastes 3:14, 17 - I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him. ..17 I said in my heart, "God shall judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."


Since what God does regarding matters of eternity and judgment (context of Ecclesiastes 3:11-22) then his wrath also last forever without end…

The Hebrew word used in Eccl 3:14 is 'owlam' which means 'for a time far into the distance, or way back before we can imagine. It doesn't necessarily mean 'never ending'. I can link some good articles on this word if you like.

Ecclesiastes 8:8 - No one has power over the spirit to retain the spirit, And no one has power in the day of death. There is no release from that war, and wickedness will not deliver those who are given to it.

A person's wickedness will not free them from the wrath of God… I agree. We cannot release ourselves from this 'war' only Christ.

Ecclesiastes 8:12 - Though a sinner does evil a hundred times, and his days are prolonged, yet I surely know that it will be well with those who fear God, who fear before Him. 13 But it will not be well with the wicked; nor will he prolong his days, which are as a shadow, because he does not fear before God.

The wicked will not prolong their days… From the OT perspective, 'the wicked' were often removed from the scene and indeed ultimately there will be no wicked left because: 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' Rom 14:11

Ecclesiastes 12:14- For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil. Yes, everything will be exposed, and everything will be reconciled to God eventually so that as in Adam all are dying, so in Christ all are being made alive.

Jeremiah 17:10 - I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings. The faithful will be rewarded and rule with Christ. The 'wicked' will have to undergo punishment.

Ephesians 5:5, 6, 7- For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 5 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
UR proponents explain this verse by saying the 'Kingdom age' is the next age (Matt 12:32) the 1000 year reign. We know only those in Christ are resurrected to live during this 'age'. the rest of the dead are resurrected after this. Jesus hands over the Kingdom back to His Father and so maybe those who didn't inherit the Kingdom age and so lost out on the blessings of it, will still be reconciled after this period?

Universalism is mere empty words and the injunction is for us not to become deceived into thinking all will inherit the kingdom of Christ and God because NOT all will.

Nahum 1:3 The LORD is long-suffering, and great in power, and will by no means clear the guilty; the LORD, in the whirlwind and in the storm is His way, and the clouds are the dust of His feet. JPS

God will by no means clear the guilty… those that reject Christ will be rejected by God forever.

Galatians 6:7-8 - Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. aionios life- life pertaining to the age.

How can unbelievers sow to the sprit since they have not the spirit to sow too? They can't. Not while they are 'unreconciled'.

John 3:16 states whosoever believes — there is a qualification. Jesus paid the price for our sins — took these open himself and forgives only them that place their faith in him. He died for the sins of the world placing a choice before all humanity. Those that come unto him will be saved and those that refuse will be lost…

Psalms 11:5 - The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
I heartily recommend this article: http://www.mercifultruth.com/doesgodhate.html

God does hate. Please read article I mentioned above.There are two kinds of humanity's children mentioned in the bible...

1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest….

Jesus came too…in his own words...

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

And again…

Ephesians 5:5, 6, 7- For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 5 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.

Mat 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.


God's wrath is eternal so is his punishment - And as the life is 'aionios' so too the punishment. It pertains to the age in which it is being experienced. If you lived in Noah's day you would have had punishment pertaining to that time, which was a flood.

Bible quotes not otherwise cited are from the NKJV
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I hope you get a chance to read the article: http://www.mercifultruth.com/doesgodhate.html

God Bless.
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Kurieuo
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by Kurieuo »

catherine wrote:I hope you get a chance to read the article: http://www.mercifultruth.com/doesgodhate.html

God Bless.
I can fully appreciate that article.

It does not follow however that just because God loves all, that all are reconciled. In fact, I'd argue it is precisely because God loves all, that He does not force many to accept Him.
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by B. W. »

Hi Catherine, always good to hear from you even though we disagree it is still a pleasure to write to you and discuss these kinds of issues. I appreciate your civility in these matters and look forward to engaging you in our discussion! I am a bit under the weather as they say (a little ill at the moment) so I'll respond a little later on.

God Bless!
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by catherine »

B. W. wrote:Hi Catherine, always good to hear from you even though we disagree it is still a pleasure to write to you and discuss these kinds of issues. I appreciate your civility in these matters and look forward to engaging you in our discussion! I am a bit under the weather as they say (a little ill at the moment) so I'll respond a little later on.

God Bless!
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I hope you feel better soon. I'll look forward to discussing with you more when you're feeling better. Take care. :wave:
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by catherine »

Kurieuo wrote:
catherine wrote:I hope you get a chance to read the article: http://www.mercifultruth.com/doesgodhate.html

God Bless.
I can fully appreciate that article.

It does not follow however that just because God loves all, that all are reconciled. In fact, I'd argue it is precisely because God loves all, that He does not force many to accept Him.

I would greatly recommend the rest of the articles on that web site (at least the first couple). If you read them in order, you'll get a better picuture of many of the points we've been discussing.

You think that God, being Love, would not 'force' people to accept Him? Hmmm, this is an interesting topic. I know God forces His will on people (The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah etc). He is in control of the universe and will have His will done (thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth). Sometimes, we have to exert our will over people for their own good ( with children, or vulnerable people). So, what we have with 'traditional' Christianity, is that God exerts His will to your detriment, but not for your good. He loves you but will give up on you and 'place' you in a prison of suffering that lasts for eternity because even though you didn't ask to be born: you had a bum deal in life, you inherited dodgy genes that made you aggressive, depressed, etc, your life was brought into existence, known by God to be destined to this 'fate'. He knew before you were born, exactly what you'd be like and so, knowing that the majority would be born unsalvagable, He still set the ball rolling, thus ensuring an eternal dimension of pure suffering (the black hole of holes). This can't be right by any stretch of my dodgy brain cells (and with great relief we can determine via proper understanding of certain Hebrew and Greek words, the Bible DOESN'T teach such a thing. I see we have two possible 'endings' : only some are saved and the rest go back to what they were before they were born (after being judged) ie no longer exist, or God really does know what He is doing and His original plan of making man (all of men) in His image to live forever, will come to pass. His word will not return to Him until it accomplishes what He wills (Jesus the Word is accomplishing His will).

These verses are always quoted by universal reconciliationists:

''I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Tim 2:1-6 KJV

Will God have HIs will be done or is the will of the 'pots' greater than the Potter? Does God 'hope' for the best that All will be saved or will His love save All through judgment, punishment, refining, and ultimately loving and reconciling? He won't have to 'force' anyone to love and serve Him. Could it be that people will undergo aionios kolasis (Matt 25:46 - corrective punishment pertaining to the age and lasting as long as is needed to ensure their reconciliation). y:-?
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by Kurieuo »

catherine wrote:These verses are always quoted by universal reconciliationists:

''I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Tim 2:1-6 KJV
To be honest, I feel Universal Reconciliationists are happy to point out verses here and there that on first glance appear to support their beliefs, but they ironically do not take into consideration how to reconcile them with a full exposition of Scripture. We must not take a hacked up approach to Scripture, but take a total approach. Otherwise we are just reading what we want to read, and ignoring what we don't. You seem to virtue Scripture so I am sure you can appreciate this.

If one desires to be a UR because it is felt that God is more loving, then that is their choice. Mind you, I wonder at the thought of a UR lovingly telling the victims of the halocaust that God will draw the Dr Mengele's of the world into His kingdom. However, to embrace UR one must separate from a fuller reading of Scripture, because as we have to some extent seen, the full weight of Scripture also supports the way being narrow and only found in Christ. And I can see how Scripture can be reconciled with limited reconciliation/savlation, but I do not see how it can be for universalists.

Re: the 1 Tim 2 passage above, what is the purpose of praying for men in places of authority, so we can freely practice our Christianity, if all will be saved anyway. Why not just live life as one wills, forsaking following after Christ? Now verse 4 is saying God wishes all of us to be saved and come to know the truth. As the NASB more clearly puts it: "[God] wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:4) The "knowledge of truth" God wants us to know and accept being that we are saved through Christ Jesus who is a mediator between us and God having given himself a ransom for all. (v.6)
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by Kurieuo »

catherine wrote:I would just draw your attention to this comment you made:

''Would you prefer to be wrong telling someone that they don't need Christ or His forgiveness because we are all saved, or would you prefer to be wrong telling someone they need Christ and should receive His forgiveness otherwise they will be eternally cast out from God. I believe the second, but certainly hope I am wrong as it means all the more people will be saved. But that is sadly not what I am led to believe when I read Christ's words or Scripture.''

The UR (unviersal reconciliation ie universal salvation) 'movement' that I know of, with it's various groups and organisations, NEVER states that we don't need Christ. The whole message of the Bible is that mankind needs redeeming from the fall of Adam, otherwise we all die and stay dead! (well that's what I believe, as opposed to still being alive in a spirit realm). NONE of us could hope to live again if it weren't for Christ's ransom sacrifice. So the 'good news' aspect of Christ's death is still as vital and important to convey to people, even if you believe we will all be ok in the end. For one thing, people can come into the Kingdom now (in a spiritual sense) and so benefit from God's blessings, the Holy Spirit etc. Maybe they'll be storing up treasures in heaven as well.
Someone who thinks this is all there is so 'live life how you want to live it', is most likely going to live their life differently if they know this isn't all there is.
I believe you missed what I was trying to say. I am not trying to argue that URs believe we do not need Christ to be saved.

I am asking which is preferable for this life: 1) Being wrong about preaching UR and that all will be saved, or 2) being wrong about preaching the way is narrow and only found in Christ. I'd much prefer to be wrong on the second than the first, for a UR if wrong will have much blood on their hands.
Catherine wrote:In fact, doesn't 'the Good News' seem like it really is 'good news' if it were the case that everyone will be saved and reconciled to God, rather than the usual claim that most people will spend eternity in hell (or in the lake of fire) being tormented for ever and ever and only a lucky few will make it into paradise? That aint really good news to be telling people. y:O2
The Gospel ("good news") is that we have been freely forgiven of our sins and can now enter into reconciliation with God through faith in Christ. I do not see that this destroys the good news at all unless one already advocates the good news as being all are saved. To know which understanding of "good news" is correct we must look at the full weight of Scripture, not how we feel.

As a side, a debate you might find interesting re: whether an all loving God can send people to hell is one between Craig and Bradley: The Craig-Bradley Debate: Can a Loving God Send People to Hell?. I highly recommend it.
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by catherine »

Kurieuo wrote: To be honest, I feel Universal Reconciliationists are happy to point out verses here and there that on first glance appear to support their beliefs, but they ironically do not take into consideration how to reconcile them with a full exposition of Scripture. We must not take a hacked up approach to Scripture, but take a total approach. Otherwise we are just reading what we want to read, and ignoring what we don't. You seem to virtue Scripture so I am sure you can appreciate this.

I agree wholeheartedly here and having 'studied' UR for some time now, the articles and books I read do seem to 'have a good go' at doing just that (reconciling 'UR' verses with the 'damnation verses'), not just taking a verse here and there out of context. One of the main teachings that demolishes UR is the doctrine of hell and once you 'can see' that this teaching is false and down to dodgy translations and 'leaven creepin in', UR does make more sense (in my opinion). Also, words like 'aionios' (pertaining to the age) and 'kolasis' (corrective punishment), does put a different slant on the usual understanding that punishment is eternal and of no corrective purpose.

If one desires to be a UR because it is felt that God is more loving, then that is their choice. Mind you, I wonder at the thought of a UR lovingly telling the victims of the halocaust that God will draw the Dr Mengele's of the world into His kingdom. From 'this side' ie fallen dying mankind, we can't appreciate how reconciliation can undo damage like the holocaust or the murder of a child, etc. Once that holocaust victim and that murdered child are brought back to life and restored having all tears and suffering removed and they can see the bigger picture, then I'm sure they will appreciate their murderers being lovingly punished and reconciled for as long as is needed. However, to embrace UR one must separate from a fuller reading of Scripture, because as we have to some extent seen, the full weight of Scripture also supports the way being narrow and only found in Christ. And I can see how Scripture can be reconciled with limited reconciliation/savlation, but I do not see how it can be for universalists. Again, how we 'read' scriputure may well be in error. Much of the language e.g hyperbole, judgmental imagery, is not necessarily as 'finite' as it sounds. Yes, the way to the Kingdom and Jesus is narrow and hard to find in this life.

Re: the 1 Tim 2 passage above, what is the purpose of praying for men in places of authority, so we can freely practice our Christianity, if all will be saved anyway. So that our lives now, in this fallen world will go better for us but probably more importantly so that as many people as possible come to a knowledge of the truth NOW and so too enter the Kingdom NOW rather than later. Why not just live life as one wills, forsaking following after Christ? Most people do, because they don't know Christ or understand what it's all about. Now verse 4 is saying God wishes all of us to be saved and come to know the truth. As the NASB more clearly puts it: "[God] wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:4) The "knowledge of truth" God wants us to know and accept being that we are saved through Christ Jesus who is a mediator between us and God having given himself a ransom for all. (v.6)
Here's an interesting thought: I recently read a book called 'How to save your unbelieving husband' or something to that effect. What struck me was that the woman who wrote it was convinced that if you put your faith in the promise that 'you and your household will be saved' Acts 16:31, then no matter how long it took, by persisting in prayer for your unbelieving husband, you would eventually bring them into the Kingdom. One husband took two years of prayer. Another took five years etc. (The book had about five stories of women who had unbelieving husbands who then got saved). Now, what struck me, was that if a woman loves her husband enough to keep praying for him and not give up and have assurance that he will eventually be saved, then what happens if we pray for EVERYONE? Does it not follow that in theory the same principle applies? I emailed the woman and put this to her but I dont' think she 'got' what I was saying and the implications of her book ie, if you pray for a loved one, then God will honour your prayer and 'save' that person. If God 'desires' or 'wills' that all men are saved, and instructs us to pray for all men, then does this not nicely tie in with Jesus saying ' But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (Greek= drag) all men to myself.' Not all men are drawn into the Kingdom in this life, but if Jesus is saying He will draw All men to Himself, then He can do this in His time, whatever and whenever that is. There are loads of scriptures that do seem to support UR, and it could well be that is because they mean what they say: God gives life, He punishes or takes away life, He restores life and He will eventually restore and reconcile All things.
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by catherine »

Kurieuo wrote:I believe you missed what I was trying to say. I am not trying to argue that URs believe we do not need Christ to be saved.

I am asking which is preferable for this life: 1) Being wrong about preaching UR and that all will be saved, or 2) being wrong about preaching the way is narrow and only found in Christ. I'd much prefer to be wrong on the second than the first, for a UR if wrong will have much blood on their hands.

How can UR supporters have blood on their hands by telling people that God loves us so much He will save everyone? The ones who would most likely react in such a way that they thought 'great, I can do what I want, and I'll still be ok', are the same ones that probably wouldn't respond to the gospel with the right heart anyway. If they respond out of fear of eternal damnation, then their faith won't be based on love but rather fear. I am cautious and say to people that the bible seems to be saying that God wants and will save All people eventually.
Catherine wrote:In fact, doesn't 'the Good News' seem like it really is 'good news' if it were the case that everyone will be saved and reconciled to God, rather than the usual claim that most people will spend eternity in hell (or in the lake of fire) being tormented for ever and ever and only a lucky few will make it into paradise? That aint really good news to be telling people. y:O2
The Gospel ("good news") is that we have been freely forgiven of our sins and can now enter into reconciliation with God through faith in Christ. I do not see that this destroys the good news at all unless one already advocates the good news as being all are saved. To know which understanding of "good news" is correct we must look at the full weight of Scripture, not how we feel.
The 'full weight of scriputure' is what seems to be the problem due to the various translations and 'understandings'. I don't see it as 'good' to know that in principle we're all saved, but in practice only a few are. Either Jesus is the Saviour of the world and draws all men to Himself, or all of this is a load of rubbish. Maybe we're all deluded.

As a side, a debate you might find interesting re: whether an all loving God can send people to hell is one between Craig and Bradley: The Craig-Bradley Debate: Can a Loving God Send People to Hell?. I highly recommend it.
I'll read this article and come back to you.
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by catherine »

Kurieuo, out of interest, who would you 'side' with: Craig or Bradley?
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by Kurieuo »

catherine wrote:Kurieuo, out of interest, who would you 'side' with: Craig or Bradley?
Definitely Craig.
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Re: Is Forgiveness the same as atonement?

Post by catherine »

Kurieuo wrote:
catherine wrote:Kurieuo, out of interest, who would you 'side' with: Craig or Bradley?
Definitely Craig.
First of all I'd just say that I believe an honest study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek shows clearly that a literal place of eternal torment that we now call 'hell', does not exist. Punishment, judgment exist. Pain and suffering as a consequence of punishment exist. A place of the dead I believe is the grave. This is another big subject which I have debated before, in particular with B.W. I'll assume that maybe such a place really could exist, as I'd like to draw attention to a few points that Craig makes, and which I've had presented to me before:

Craig said:

''Thus, in a sense, God doesn't send anybody to hell. His desire is that everyone be saved, and He pleads with people to come to Him. But if we reject Christ's sacrifice for our sin, then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve. God will not send us to hell--but we will send ourselves. Our eternal destiny thus lies in our own hands. It is a matter of our free choice where we shall spend eternity.''

If Hell is real, and God is in control of ALL things and created ALL things, then to say He doesn't actually 'send us' there is illogical in my mind. When God warned Adam and Eve what the consequences of disobeying Him (ie sin), would be, He didn't say 'eternal seperation in a place of torment', but rather 'death' ie you will die. (The wages of sin is death, which is the opposite of life). Now surely if such a fate is awaiting those who refuse to come to Christ, then surely it should have been mentioned right from the start. It's not even in the small print.

I would also add that more and more we are discovering how determined behaviour is. Our wills are not truly 'free'. We have choices that are limited and driven by other factors. I mentioned before how we can't direct our own steps, our hearts are wicked etc. If I had a malfunctioning computer anti-virus programme, I'd not trust it to keep my computer safe. I'd hardly be able to blame it, when things went wrong. Our eternal destiny cannot be entrusted to us because we are not the Creator, or in charge. He gives life and He takes life and He restores life. Rom 11:32:For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.''

Craig then goes on further to say:

''Now, of course, nobody commits an infinite number of sins in the earthly life. But what about in the afterlife? Insofar as the inhabitants of hell continue to hate God and reject Him, they continue to sin and so accrue to themselves more guilt and more punishment. In a real sense, then, hell is self-perpetuating. In such a case, every sin has a finite punishment, but because sinning goes on forever, so does the punishment.''

If this is true, then creation has not been reconciled, sin has not been overcome, all tears and pain have not been removed. God is not All in All because the majority of His creation, the ones made in His image, will be festering, suffering, hating for all eternity in a realm God preserves. This is so repugnant and wrong and goes in the face of scripture, whose central message is surely reconciliaiton and restoration. Sin will no longer be in existence. 'Enemies' of God will no longer be in existence. To attribute this wicked idea to God who is love, is surely the imaginings of a malfunctioning mind. 'Sinning goes on for ever'- what a statement. Either Christ reconciles All things or He actually didn't do a great job, seeing as most of His creation is left to sin for ever and ever. What a ludicrous, crazy idea!

Finally Craig also said:

''No Christian likes the doctrine of hell. I truly wish with all my heart that universal salvation were true. But to pretend that people are not sinful and in need of salvation would be as cruel and deceptive as pretending that somebody was healthy even though you knew that he had a fatal disease for which you knew the cure.''

This statement is classic of how UR is misrepresented. UR does in no way claim people are not sinful etc. All of us are dying because we all sin. We are all malfunctioning, some worse than others. We all need reconciliation and the only way for reconciliation is through Christ. Now Christ knows the cure for our malfunctioning, and the ones who because of the malfuncitons can't understand or appreciate the cure, can surely be cured, so that they can accept Christ in a 'free' way. If that is not the case and they can't be cured, then they will return to the dust they came from ie they will return to the state prior to their conception, which is non existence. That is eternal punishment. However, I believe the 'evidence' is strong enough to have a real hope that All will be reconciled and not one sheep will be lost in the end because as Romans says, God (against our wills) subjected us to disobedience (by allowing us to be born into a malfunctioning body and nature) but will subject ALL to mercy.

ONe last thought which I think I mentioned earlier: As God knows the end from the beginning, He knows what will happen etc, He knew that man would fall and most would reject Him, so before He created the universe and Man, He knew Hell would have to exist to 'house' most of His creation. Now why would a God of love want to have a situation where most of His creation will forever be writhing in hatred, agony, suffering or whatever, in a 'prison', whilst the lucky few live in paradise (assuming their memories have been wiped of their loved ones now existing forever alongside them (in the Matrix dimension!) but in agony unimaginable, when of course God looks on at the suffering for ever and ever). This goes against every grain of intelligence and feeling I possess: that God knowingly created the inevitability of Hell. This would surely mean the Devil did win. He took so many casualties and 'forced' God to maintain them in the lake of fire (or a place like that represented in 'The Great Divorce'), for ever and ever . My brain is actually 'hurting' at the thought of such a thing.
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