The historical evidence for Christ

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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

Post by DannyM »

Gman wrote:Thanks Danny..

No eyewitness to the accounts of Christ? I think this video clearly refutes that....

How Many People Really Saw Jesus Alive? Eyewitness Accounts of Christ
I love Lee Srobel. He's got such energy and enthusiasm that I could listen to him all night. I'd enjoy a beer and a chat with that man! You know, the way he described Luke as "...like a 1st century investigative reporter..." I thought that was brilliant. What he said is simply irrefutable. We all know bart Ehrman, right? Now even he says that Paul's writings were the earliest source for Jesus, written in the early 50s AD; he says Mark was written as early as 35 years after Jesus' death, and he says Matthew came about 10-15 years after Mark. Bart Ehrman, a sceptic and a cynic, is in no doubt about the authenticity of the Gospels and the (main) writings of Paul- he does question Ephesians, Colossians, Timothy and Titus; I'd like to talk about this with you one day.

"The oldest and best sources for knowing about Jesus are the four Gospels of the New Testament. This is the view of all serious historians, even those atheist historians ... Scholars - serious scholars - of the life of Jesus have learned Greek and Hebrew, Latin, syriac, and Coptic. These scholars have studied the sources inside and out."

From The Truth and Fiction of The DaVinci Code - Bart Ehrman.
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

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sweetadeline112358 wrote:I do have a problem with a lot of tertiary beliefs, memes, and attitudes that I have seen propagated by many people that also happen to be Christian. There are specific ones that I even consider toxic. I've had to deal with them for my entire life. I'm not stupid enough to think all Christians hold those beliefs (I have a friend who shares a lot of the same views I do on many issues and he considers himself to be a Christian). I'm sorry if you think that I am being self-righteous, but I have let people (a lot of Christians, especially) walk all over me my entire life and I think it's time that I stand up for myself once in awhile.
No problem.. You are not alone... With humans, however, you are always going to find some kind of issue. But whether that's biblical, for people to walk all over you, I would think not... At least I don't think that is scriptural..

Philippians 2:3
"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves."
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

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The Politarch Inscriptions

"Thirty-two inscriptions have been found that have the term "politarchs" ("city authorities"), and 19 of them come from Thessalonica. At least three inscriptions date from Paul's time.

Because the Greek term "politarchs" could not be found in existing ancient literature outside of the New Testament, some critics argued that Luke must have been mistaken in his use of the term in Acts 17:6. That passage speaks of some believers at Thessalonica being dragged by a mob before the "politarchs." At least three inscriptions date from Paul's time, showing that Luke was quite correct in this detail."

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The Holy of Holies in the Temple of Luke Jesus' Day

"Archaeologist and leading authority on the Temple, Leen Ritmeyer, has now found what appear to be the foundations of the walls of the Holy of Holies (the most sacred portion) of the ancient Temple."

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"The trenches conform precisely to the dimensions of the walls of the Holy of Holies, as described in ancient Jewish writings. Finding the trenches that match the dimensions of the walls of the Holy of Holies could well provide the location of the events recorded in Mark 15:38 and Luke 23:45 (the veil of the Temple was torn in two from top to bottom when Jesus died). The Holy of Holies is mentioned in Hebrews 6: 19, 9:3-11, 10:20."

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Source: 50 Proofs for the Bible.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

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This comes from another website...

1. Rylands Library Papyrus I: P52 (117-138AD)

This is the earliest fragment from the New Testament. It is named P52, and dates back to 117-138 AD. It contains parts of John 18:31-33 and John 18:37-38 on the back, which talk about Jesus trial.

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2. A few verses of Philemon: P87 (125 AD)

P87 is dated by at around 125AD. It contains Philemon 13-15 (of Paul saying that he is sending back the former slave Onesimus as a brother) as well as the epilogue (v24-25).

Papyrus 87, recto

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3. Oxyrhynchus papyrus 2683: P77 (150 AD)

This papyrus is named P77 and contains Matthew 23:30-39.

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4. Chester Beatty Papyrus I: P45 (150 AD)

This manuscript, known as P45, contains sections of all four gospels and also Acts. including Matthew 20-21 and 25-26; Mark 4-9 and 11-12; Luke 6-7 and 9-14; John 4-5 and 10-11; and Acts 4-17.

You might be wondering why a papyrus is named 'Chester Beatty'. Apparently these were purchased from a dealer in Egypt by Chester Beatty in the 1930's. There's three of these papyri: P45, P46 (below) and P47 (containing Revelations 9-17) .

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5. Chester Beatty Papyrus II: P46 (150 AD)

This manuscript, P46, contains most Paul's letters: the majority of Romans; Hebrews; 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians; and two chapters of 1 Thessalonians. Although usually dated around 150-200 AD, it is written in a handwriting which has only ever been found in first century manuscripts, and so some people (eg. Young Kyu Kim) suggest it could be much earlier.
A folio from P46 containing 2 Corinthians 11:33-12:9

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6. The Magdalen papyrus: P4/P64/P67 (175 AD)

These papyri apparently go together, and contain portions of Matthew and Luke. Their name, 'Magdalen' is from an Oxford college that they originally lived, even though they were discovered in Luxor, Egypt. Apparently P4 was found stuffed in the binding of a codex of Philo.

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7. Bodmer Papyrus II: P66 (175 AD)

P66 contains a nearly complete gospel of John. It is the oldest of the Bodmer papyri, a set of 22 papyri which were discovered in Egypt in 1952. Buying New Testament papyri seems a good way to become famous, because they are named after Martin Bodmer who originally purchased them.

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8. Bodmer XIV and XV: P75 (200 AD)

This early third century manuscript contains almost all of Luke, and also of John. You can find almost 100 images of it online.

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9. Oxyrhynchus Papyrus 2: P1 (200 AD)

P1, fittingly contains Matthew 1. This is one of many parchments which have been found in the rubbish dumps of Oxyrhychus, Egypt. Their discovery began in 1898, uncovering not only early Christian text, but all sorts of ancient literature. Now there are over 50 New Testament manuscripts from this site.

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10. Oxyrhynchus Papyrus 4446: P104 (125-150 AD)

And last but not least, P104, was another Oxyrhynchus piece of rubbish, which is now one of the more valuable pieces of rubbish in the world, because contains part of Jesus parable in Matthew 21.

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Source: //thoughtfulfaith.wordpress.com/2009/12/20/ten-early-new-testament-papyri/

This comes from "50 Proofs of the Bible"

The Oldest Complete Copy of the New Testament

"In 1844 New Testament scholar Konstantin von Tischendorf discovered the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament. He found it among the
books belonging to a monastery that has stood at the foot of Mount Sinai since ancient times.

Known today as Codex Sinaiticus, this Bible was written on parchment around AD 350. This text is also known by the name '''Aleph;' the Hebrew letter "N' The other early key Greek text is Codex Vaticanus, also known as "B.

Codex Sinaiticus has proved vital to scholars and translators in verifying the accuracy with which the New Testament has been reproduced across the ages. When new Bible versions refer to "most reliable texts;' they are referring to "A" and "B."

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The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

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Hank Hanegraaff, "The Bible Answer Man": The Manuscript Evidence for the Bible

http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/v ... robelT1074

Very interesting!
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

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Hanegraaff, "The Bible Answer Man": The Eyewitness Evidence for the Bible:

http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/v ... robelT1075

Again very interesting. It also exposes this untruth from the Qur'an [Sura 4:157] "And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him."
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

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Thanks Danny... I missed those ones. Nice..

Yes the harder you dig the more you will find it seems...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

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Just for for fun. I forwarded this evidence to a angry atheist. If you wish to refute. I'll paste your argument back to him..



1. Cornelius Tacitus (AD 55-120). A Roman historian that recorded references to Christ. The most important one is that found in the Annals, which also mentions Pontius Pilate as Christ's persecutor.


2. Josephus Flavius (37-100 AD). A Jewish-Roman historian who wrote various passages about Christ. His supposed sorcery, his death and resurrection, and his brother James and John the Baptist.


Wrong. There are only TWO such mentions, both very brief and interrupting the flow of the narrative, and they are both later Christian interpolations.



3. Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas (AD 117-138). Another Roman historian that recorded references to Christ. Recorded the riots which broke between the Jews and Romans in the year AD 49 during the investigation of Christ claims.


No, he did not. Were you perhaps referring to this?

"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, (the emperor, Claudius) expelled them from Rome" (The Life of Claudius, Sec. 25.4).

Silly me, of COURSE you weren't! But was the source you were copying from referring to this? Because "Chrestus" was a commonplace name, especially among freed slaves, that means "good" or "useful". And what was your jesus doing inciting riots in Rome some 15 years after he supposedly died? Got bored sitting at the right hand of God, did he?


4. Thallus (AD 52). Historian that references a darkness and earthquake that occurred during Christ's crucifixion, referenced by Julius Africanus.

...some important facts about Thallus, a pagan chronologer of unknown date who is occasionally mentioned in the works of Christian apologists, modern and ancient, as a 1st century pagan witness to the gospel tradition of a "darkness" at the death of Christ: see Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44; and Matthew 27:51-53, whose account includes an earthquake, split rocks, and zombies; John makes no mention of any such events, nor does Paul or any other New Testament author.

Such a story has obvious mythic overtones and can easily be doubted. That a solar eclipse should mark the death of a king was common lore among Greeks and other Mediterranean peoples (Herodotus 7.37, Plutarch Pelopidas 31.3 and Aemilius Paulus 17.7-11, Dio Cassius 55.29.3, John Lydus De Ostentis 70.a), and that such events corresponded with earthquakes was also a scientific superstition (Aristotle Meteorology 367.b.2, Pliny Natural History 2.195, Virgil Georgics 2.47.478-80). It was also typical to assimilate eclipses to major historic events, even when they did not originally correspond, or to invent eclipses for this purpose (Préaux claims to have counted 200 examples in extant literature; Boeuffle and Newton have also remarked on this tendency). The gospel stories also make a solar eclipse impossible: the crucifixion passover happened during a full moon, and the darkness supposedly lasted three hours (indeed, Julius Africanus claimed it covered the whole world). Such an impossible event would not fail to be recorded in the works of Seneca, Pliny, Josephus or other historians, yet it is not mentioned anywhere else outside of Christian rhetoric, so we can probably dismiss the idea of this being a real event.

Nevertheless, Thallus is cited at least as a witness to the early date of the gospel story of the darkness, if not to the factuality of the darkness itself. But the facts surrounding Thallus are all too often incorrect, or asserted with unjustified boldness, calling for a proper historical treatment of the facts.

We know next to nothing about Thallus or his works. We don't even know if he wrote only one book or several. The only information we have about him, even his name, comes entirely from Christian apologetic sources beginning in the late 2nd century, and that information is plagued with problems. Scholars since the 18th century have even invented facts about him, and some of these groundless notions--like the idea that he was a Samaritan--are repeated even today. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... allus.html

Etc. etc. etc., yadda yadda yadda - you got *nothing*. Stuff decades and centuries after the supposed events, written by people who weren't even born yet at the time the supposed events supposedly took place.

Why can you not find a single source LIVING AND WRITING IN JERUSALEM DURING THAT TIME who mentions your jesus? We have plenty of extant texts from that time/place:

They Should Have Noticed

John E. Remsburg, in his classic book The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence (The Truth Seeker Company, NY, no date, pp. 24-25), lists the following writers who lived during the time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have lived:

Josephus
Philo-Judæus
Seneca
Pliny Elder
Arrian
Petronius
Dion Pruseus
Paterculus
Suetonius
Juvenal
Martial
Persius
Plutarch
Pliny Younger
Tacitus
Justus of Tiberius
Apollonius
Quintilian
Lucanus
Epictetus
Hermogones
Silius Italicus
Statius
Ptolemy
Appian
Phlegon
Phædrus
Valerius Maximus
Lucian
Pausanias
Florus Lucius
Quintius Curtius
Aulus Gellius
Dio Chrysostom
Columella
Valerius Flaccus
Damis
Favorinus
Lysias
Pomponius Mela
Appion of Alexandria
Theon of Smyrna

According to Remsburg, "Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ." Nor, we may add, do any of these authors make note of the Disciples or Apostles - increasing the embarrassment from the silence of history concerning the foundation of Christianity. http://www.atheists.org/Did_Jesus_Exist%3F
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

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Swimmy wrote:Just for for fun. I forwarded this evidence to a angry atheist. If you wish to refute. I'll paste your argument back to him..

2. Josephus Flavius (37-100 AD). A Jewish-Roman historian who wrote various passages about Christ. His supposed sorcery, his death and resurrection, and his brother James and John the Baptist.


Wrong. There are only TWO such mentions, both very brief and interrupting the flow of the narrative, and they are both later Christian interpolations.
You can tell this person that he is spectacularly wrong. In the 90s AD Josephus wrote a broad history of the Jewish people, Jewish [Antiquities]. Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to any Christian who reads his bible. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in [Antiquities]. First, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This is known as the Testimonium Flavianum:

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day."
Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

According to one of the leading scholars on Jopsephus, Louis Feldman, the authenticity of this passage "has been almost universally acknowledged" by scholars. (Louis Feldman, "Josephus," Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pg 990-91).

Here's a reconstruction of what scholars of "partial authenticity" believe the original text of the [TF] would have looked like in book 18:

"At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following among many Jews and among many of Gentile origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians (named after him) had not died out."

(John Meier, A Marginal Jew, pg 61)

There were almost certainly interpolations to the text. However, scholars are near-unanimous that the text, for the large part, is unmistakably from Joesephus' hand. A few examples:

1. "Now there was about this time Jesus"

The digression and introductory phrase are typical of Josephus.

"The opening phrase 'about this time' is characteristic of his language in this part of [Antiquities], where he is weaving together distinct episodes into a coherent narrative." (Steve Mason, Josephus and the New Testament, pg 171)

2. "a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man"

The phrase "wise man" is characteristically Josephan; it almost certainly is not a Christian addition. This is followed by the obvious interpolation "if it be lawful to call him a man" This indicates that the interpolator found the description of Jesus as a "wise man" to be woefully inadequate. Sp he remedies this insufficient description of Jesus by clarifying that there is good reason to doubt he was just a man. A Christian scribe would not deny that Jesus was wise, but would certainly feel it to be insufficient since Jesus was God.

"As it stands, the reticence to call Jesus a man seems like a rejoinder to the previous, already flattering statement that he was a wise man. It seems more like a qualification of an existing statement than part of a free creation." (Mason, ibid)

3. "for he was a doer of wonderful works"

Mason confirms that the term "startling/incredible deeds" (paradoxa) is Josephan: "Josephus often speaks of “marvels” and “incredible” things in the same breath, as the testimonium does. He even uses the phrase rendered “incredible deeds” in two other places, once of the prophet Elisha (Ant. 9.182; cf. 12.63)." (Mason, ibid)

4. "a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure"

The phrase "receive the truth with pleasure" is again characteristically Josephan.

"In particular, Thackeray, the prince of Josephan scholars, who went so far in his study of Josephus' language as to compose a lexicon to Josephus for his own use so as to see how precisely each word is used in Josephus and whether there is evidence of shifts of style in various parts of his works due to his "assistants" or to other reasons, noted that the phrase 'such people as accept the truth gladly' is characteristic of the scribe in this part of the [Antiquities], since the phrase appears eight times in books 17-19 (supposedly the work of the Thucydidean assistant) and nowhere else in Josephus."

(Louis Feldman, The Testimonium Flavianum, The State of the Question, Christological Perspectives, Eds. Robert Berkley and Sarah Edwards, pg 188).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second reference:

"But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned."
Jewish Antiquities 20.9.1

The validity of Josephus' reference to James' Martyrdom increases the likelihood that the [TF] is also valid. In the reference to James, he refers to Jesus as "the so-called Christ" without further explanation. Because the reference to Jesus is likely meant to specify which James Josephus was discussing, it is probable that Josephus had already explained to his audience the significance of Jesus, hence "the so-called Christ."

"Within Josephus' narrative, this phrasing is best explained by his wish to recall his earlier reference to Jesus (Ant. 18.63—64), thus: “this man was the brother of the one I mentioned before.” It might also be that Josephus means to indicate something of the accusations brought against James: just as his brother was condemned by some Jewish leaders, so also James ran afoul of Ananus. But if Josephus did not think James' actions worthy of death, that might support the view that the original form of the testimonium was similarly mild."(Mason, ibid)

Liberal commentators such as Robert Funk, J. Dominic Crossan, and A.N. Wilson, accept a substantial part of the TF as originally Josephan; Jewish scholars such as Geza Vermes, Louis H. Feldman, and Paul Winter; secular scholars such as E.P. Sanders and Paula Fredrikson. Even Jeff Lowder, co-founder of the Secular Web, recognizes the merits of the partial authenticity theory. [Lowder, Josh McDowell's Evidence for Jesus: Is it Reliable? 2000]. Paula Fredrikson sums up the state of the question among scholars: "Most scholars currently incline to see the passage as basically authentic, with a few later insertions by Christian scribes." (Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, page 249).

Practically the only scholars disagreeing with this are Jesus Mythologists; kinda tell a story in itself ...
Swimmy wrote:Etc. etc. etc., yadda yadda yadda - you got *nothing*. Stuff decades and centuries after the supposed events, written by people who weren't even born yet at the time the supposed events supposedly took place.
Sources for Jesus date to within 20 years of his death. Ask this person if he's read Bart Ehrman, who dates Paul's writings to the early 50s AD. ask him if he accepts that Plato lived? That Aristotle lived? That Socrates lived? If he does, then inform him that these three joined together would not account for even HALF of the evidence that we have for Jesus' existence.
Swimmy wrote:Why can you not find a single source LIVING AND WRITING IN JERUSALEM DURING THAT TIME who mentions your jesus? We have plenty of extant texts from that time/place
Um, tell him that he should take an objective look at the evidence. Tell him that his source is historically deficient. Tell him that, if he wishes to know the truth, not to rely only on sources who start out with a predisposition and an agenda. Then he may get somewhere.
Last edited by DannyM on Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

Post by DannyM »

Swimmy wrote:John E. Remsburg, in his classic book The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence (The Truth Seeker Company, NY, no date, pp. 24-25), lists the following writers who lived during the time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have lived:

Josephus
Philo-Judæus
Seneca
Pliny Elder
Arrian
Petronius
Dion Pruseus
Paterculus
Suetonius
Juvenal
Martial
Persius
Plutarch
Pliny Younger
Tacitus
Justus of Tiberius
Apollonius
Quintilian
Lucanus
Epictetus
Hermogones
Silius Italicus
Statius
Ptolemy
Appian
Phlegon
Phædrus
Valerius Maximus
Lucian
Pausanias
Florus Lucius
Quintius Curtius
Aulus Gellius
Dio Chrysostom
Columella
Valerius Flaccus
Damis
Favorinus
Lysias
Pomponius Mela
Appion of Alexandria
Theon of Smyrna

According to Remsburg, "Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ." Nor, we may add, do any of these authors make note of the Disciples or Apostles - increasing the embarrassment from the silence of history concerning the foundation of Christianity. http://www.atheists.org/Did_Jesus_Exist%3F
Well, moving on to this next bit, could you ask the gentleman why he is using Remsberg? Also, ask him how "modern" a writer he considers Remsberg to be...

This link take on every name in the list and shows how it is bunkum:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/remslist.html

"There's a popular list circulated of writers supposedly contemporary with Jesus who are alleged to have been mysteriously silent about him. You'll find this list repeated on dozens of Skeptical sites, and in books like Freke and Gandy's Jesus Mysteries, but the ultimate source of the list is John Remsberg and his book, The Christ.

While this long list of names may seem impressive, once you look at this list closely, you find several problems. Some of these writers did indeed mention Jesus (which Remsberg disputes; but see our rebuttals linked below); most by far, though, would have no reason to mention Jesus (because of the sort of things they wrote), and also did not mention Christians, though they certainly existed in the time many of these writers lived, even by the admission of critics like Remsberg -- and many of them also make no mention of Jews.

The question Remsberg never answers is, "Why should any of these people have mentioned Jesus?" The list is presented flat, as though it is obvious that merely by being in the same century as Jesus, something requires these writers to make mention of him. As a reminder, let's bring up again Meier's reasons why someone like Jesus would not make it into the typical Roman or Greek history:

As far as the historians of the day were concerned, he was just a "blip" on the screen. Jesus did not address the Roman Senate, or write extensive Greek philosophical treatises; he never traveled outside of the regions of Palestine, and was not a member of any known political party. It is only because Christians later made Jesus a "celebrity" that He became known. Sanders, comparing Jesus to Alexander, notes that the latter "so greatly altered the political situation in a large part of the world that the main outline of his public life is very well known indeed.
Jesus did not change the social, political and economic circumstances in Palestine (Note: It was left for His followers to do that) ..the superiority of evidence for Jesus is seen when we ask what he thought...

In closing: In almost all cases, Remsberg's writers are either the sort who would not mention Jesus anyway (being writers of either fiction, poetry, or on mundane and practical matters like oratory and agriculture, or historians or writers of another time or place). The few left over, like Plutarch or Tacitus, either did mention Jesus or else would be too bigoted to make the special diversion, unless (as with Tacitus) they had some corollary reason to look into the movement (Tacitus was trying to show Nero's cruelty).

My challenge to Skeptics: Show me why each of these writers should have mentioned Jesus. Remsberg's say-so isn't sufficient."
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

Post by DannyM »

Bit of an OT 'flavour' here:

The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep”) in Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from Nuzi and Mari.

See link for the picture.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

Post by DannyM »

http://www.christiananswers.net/diction ... rnaum.html

"Modern shore of the Sea of Galilee, showing the location of Capernaum. Archaeological evidence indicates the town did not begin until the 2nd century B.C., which explains why it is only mentioned in the New Testament, not the Old... Capernaum was a large Galilean fishing village and busy trading center. This place is of special interest to Christians because of its frequent mention in the history of Jesus Christ. Peter, Andrew, James and John also lived here... Caravans stopped at Capernaum to resupply themselves with produce and dried fish. At the lake shore, where Peter and other fishermen worked, archaeologists discovered a fish sales area."
[see link for picture]

http://www.christiananswers.net/diction ... rnaum.html

"PETER'S HOUSE - Only a few hundred feet from the synagogue, the stone house of the disciple Peter has also been found at Capernaum... Literary sources and recent archaeological discoveries make the identification of the house of St. Peter in Capernaum virtually certain... The house was built at the very end of the Hellenistic period (first century B.C.). In the second half of the first century A.D. some peculiar features set apart this building from all the others so far excavated in Capernaum. Here, in fact, the pavements received floors of lime several times. Interesting enough, many pieces of broken lamps were found in the thin layers of lime. …One hundred and thirty-one inscriptions were found. They were written in four languages, namley: in Greek (110), Aramaic (10), Estrangelo (9), and Latin (2)... The name of Jesus appears several times. He is called Christ, the Lord, and the Most High God. An inscription in Estrangelo mentions the Eucharist."
[see link for picture]
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

Post by Gman »

Hey nice work there Danny.. :clap:
Swimmy wrote: 1. Cornelius Tacitus (AD 55-120). A Roman historian that recorded references to Christ. The most important one is that found in the Annals, which also mentions Pontius Pilate as Christ's persecutor.


2. Josephus Flavius (37-100 AD). A Jewish-Roman historian who wrote various passages about Christ. His supposed sorcery, his death and resurrection, and his brother James and John the Baptist.


Wrong. There are only TWO such mentions, both very brief and interrupting the flow of the narrative, and they are both later Christian interpolations.
I believe Danny answered your question best here... Also, is the Josephus' account of Jesus a forgery? This YouTube video clearly refutes that..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6cQgqbXYN0
Swimmy wrote:3. Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas (AD 117-138). Another Roman historian that recorded references to Christ. Recorded the riots which broke between the Jews and Romans in the year AD 49 during the investigation of Christ claims.

No, he did not. Were you perhaps referring to this?

"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, (the emperor, Claudius) expelled them from Rome" (The Life of Claudius, Sec. 25.4).

Silly me, of COURSE you weren't! But was the source you were copying from referring to this? Because "Chrestus" was a commonplace name, especially among freed slaves, that means "good" or "useful". And what was your jesus doing inciting riots in Rome some 15 years after he supposedly died? Got bored sitting at the right hand of God, did he?
Not actually... "a quote from the 4th-century Latin Christian Lactantius, that Jesus was commonly called "Chrestus" by those who were ignorant."

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/suey.html
Swimmy wrote:4. Thallus (AD 52). Historian that references a darkness and earthquake that occurred during Christ's crucifixion, referenced by Julius Africanus.

...some important facts about Thallus, a pagan chronologer of unknown date who is occasionally mentioned in the works of Christian apologists, modern and ancient, as a 1st century pagan witness to the gospel tradition of a "darkness" at the death of Christ: see Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44; and Matthew 27:51-53, whose account includes an earthquake, split rocks, and zombies; John makes no mention of any such events, nor does Paul or any other New Testament author.
Both Thallus and Phlegon indicate that darkness covered the land immediately after Jesus Christ died on the cross.

Earthquakes were already addressed here.
Swimmy wrote:Such a story has obvious mythic overtones and can easily be doubted. That a solar eclipse should mark the death of a king was common lore among Greeks and other Mediterranean peoples (Herodotus 7.37, Plutarch Pelopidas 31.3 and Aemilius Paulus 17.7-11, Dio Cassius 55.29.3, John Lydus De Ostentis 70.a), and that such events corresponded with earthquakes was also a scientific superstition (Aristotle Meteorology 367.b.2, Pliny Natural History 2.195, Virgil Georgics 2.47.478-80). It was also typical to assimilate eclipses to major historic events, even when they did not originally correspond, or to invent eclipses for this purpose (Préaux claims to have counted 200 examples in extant literature; Boeuffle and Newton have also remarked on this tendency). The gospel stories also make a solar eclipse impossible: the crucifixion passover happened during a full moon, and the darkness supposedly lasted three hours (indeed, Julius Africanus claimed it covered the whole world). Such an impossible event would not fail to be recorded in the works of Seneca, Pliny, Josephus or other historians, yet it is not mentioned anywhere else outside of Christian rhetoric, so we can probably dismiss the idea of this being a real event.
Huh? Of course no one would state this is a solar eclipse.. What we are stating here is a lunar eclipse.. Does this person understand the difference between a solar and lunar eclipse?
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

Post by Gman »

Philippi, Where Paul First Preached in Europe

"Among the ruins at Philippi are numerous carved shrines to various Greco-Roman and eastern gods and goddesses. On top of the city's acropolis (highest hill) are the remains of ramparts (defensive walls) and a theater. Located in northeast Greece, Philippi is where Paul preached his first sermon on European soil, and won a convert in Lydia, "a seller of purple" (see Acts 16:12-14). Paul wrote a letter to the Philippians."

Image
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The historical evidence for Christ

Post by DannyM »

Gman,

I watched that youtube video and read the comments. There are so many atheists on there making errors - I mean BLATANT ERRORS - that one can only conclude that these people are so entrenched in their need/desire for Jesus to be a myth that they actually willingly lie to themselves and in print on a youtube forum. I nearly opened an account on there just to correct these people for their embarrassing errors, but there was one guy on there taking them all to the cleaners; and yet they still wouldn't believe it. My word, how a worldview can distort the mind ...
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