Jesus and God

[Anonymous]

I've been discussing the topic of Jesus's Divinity with someone who believes Jesus isn't God and he brought up the concept of man and Angels bearing God's name while obviously not being God. I thought this was interesting and I'm wondering what people think.

"It is not surprising that Jesus, as the Son of God and His supreme manifestation to men, should also carry God's Name. He could say "I am come in my Father's Name" (John 5:43). Because of his obedience, Jesus ascended to Heaven and God "gave him a Name which is above every name"- the name of Yahweh, of God Himself (Phil.2:9). So this is why we read Jesus saying in Rev.3:12, "I will write upon him (the believer) the name of my God...and I will write upon him my new name". At the judgment Jesus will give us God's Name; we then will fully carry the name of God. He calls this name, "My New Name". Remember, Jesus was giving the book of Revelation some years after his ascension into Heaven and being given God's name, as explained in Phil.2:9. So he can call God's name "My new name"; the name he had recently been given. We can now properly understand Isaiah 9:6, where concerning Jesus we are told, "His Name (note that) shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father...". This is a prophecy that Jesus would carry all the names of God - that he would be the total manifestation or revelation of God to us. It was in this sense that he was called 'Emmanuel', meaning, 'God is with us', although He personally was not God."

Also I've been wondering, If Jesus is God, then what exactly happened on the cross? Since God is eternal and thus can't die, what are the Disciples referring to when they say Christ died. The explanation I can think of is that Christ's human nature died and not his Divine, but maybe i've overlooked something.

[Felgar]

I think you're right - though Jesus was fully divine, He was also fully human, and it's the human that died upon the cross.

I think the simple fact that Jesus rose himself from the dead is proof enough that He was not just a great person but must have been God - who else but God could have power over death? Jesus laid His life down and picked it up.

You did read the "Jesus is the archangel thread", right?

[Anonymous]

wait no, could you link it?

[Felgar]

wait no, could you link it?

Yeah... We went a little off-track, esspecially after page 2, but before that I think you might find it pretty good.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... .php?t=510

[Mastermind]

The physical body is a chunk of meat. It dying means absolutely jack.

[Felgar]

The physical body is a chunk of meat. It dying means absolutely jack.

What are you saying then?

[Mastermind]

The physical body is a chunk of meat. It dying means absolutely jack.

What are you saying then?

I'm saying that it hardly counts as "God dying"

[Felgar]

The physical body is a chunk of meat. It dying means absolutely jack.

What are you saying then?

I'm saying that it hardly counts as "God dying"

So then Jesus must have died in some other way? In what way?

The bible tells us so often that humans will definately die, but also that we're eternal beings - our spirit will never die, and I don't see how Jesus' could have either.

[Mastermind]

He didn't die in some other way. Jesus's body died. But Jesus Himself never died, just like we never really "die".

[Christian2]

Hi,

You said:

Also I've been wondering, If Jesus is God, then what exactly happened on the cross? Since God is eternal and thus can't die, what are the Disciples referring to when they say Christ died. The explanation I can think of is that Christ's human nature died and not his Divine, but maybe i've overlooked something.

I got a wonderful answer to this question from Jac. You can find the discussion here:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/about93.html

You'll be happy to know, I think, that the early Church Fathers dealt pretty much with these questions early on when they were first establishing the doctrine of the Trinity. There was a belief called Monarchianism popular in the second century A.D. It came in two forms, Dynamic Monarchianism (or Adoptionism), and Modalistic Monarchianism. Briefly, the former taught that Jesus was merely a man who was given special powers by the Holy Spirit at His baptism. This teaching clearly denies the Trinity, so the church rightly rejected it.

Your questions, it seems to me, fall closer to the second idea. It has resurfaced gain in modern years as the "Oneness Movement." Ultimately, this teaching rejects to Trinity as well. In this system, the One God simply manifests Himself in three modes. By taking this approach, one could say that it was not God who died on the Cross, because God cannot die, but simply the human form that God had manifested Himself into. Plus, you avoid the problem of God "being created" at His conception in Mary.

Of course, this system is flawed on the basic account that God is a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Under a truly Trinitarian perspective then, we might answer your questions this way:

1. I think we all believe that the human body of Jesus died on the cross, but what about the Son of God as in the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Did the Son die too?

Yes, the Son actually died and was separated from the Father and Holy Spirit.

2. If the Son died, then for a time did the Trinity only consist of Father and Holy Spirit?

No. The Trinity still existed, but one of them was separated from the others. This is the great sacrifice of God. For the first time in ever, the love of God suffered loss. Remember that God is love, and He has perfect love within Himself as all the Person's love one another. However, at the death of Jesus, the Father was forced to turn His back on the Son and the Son took sin upon Himself. It is possibly the greatest mystery in all of Christianity: how can God die? But, He did . . . the Son was separated from the source of life for three days.

3. Are we to believe that Jesus—the human Jesus—was created at His conception? The human Jesus would never have been born without the Holy Spirit's help, so doesn't logic tell us that He was created?

The human body of Jesus was created at conception, of course. But, that does not mean the Son was created at Jesus' conception, nor does it mean that Jesus was not the Son. See John 1:1. The Son was incarnated with the help of the Holy Spirit and became a man, but remember: before this event He was still God. While a man He was still God. After His death He was still God. After His resurrection He was still God, and today He is still God, and always will be.

4. If Jesus was created, then who are we worshipping? The human or the divine?

Jesus was fully God and fully man, not half God and half man. When we worship Jesus, we are worshipping God Himself. Yahweh became incarnate in a human body. The worship of that human body does not mean we are worshipping a mere man, but God incarnated as man.

Blessings

[Anonymous]

How can God die and separate himself?

Just like an Angel cannot die, I don't understand how God can, nor do I understand how God could separate himself, from himself.

"In him we move, and live, and have our being.."

[Felgar]

Jac's answer is very good. I'm not sure I've ever disagreed with one of his philosophies. Wish he dropped in more...

[Anonymous]

wait what is his answer, i'm not sure i'm understanding it.
God simply cannot die and God can't separate himself from himself.
If anyone can explain how God can do the things above, please do so.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

wait what is his answer, i'm not sure i'm understanding it.
God simply cannot die and God can't separate himself from himself.
If anyone can explain how God can do the things above, please do so.

The man who was Jesus was God because His spirit dwelled within that form. But, that body was not God Himself. It was, as Mastermind poetically said, a hunk of meat. We are not our bodies, we inhabit these bodies, and Jesus did the same thing. So, Jesus didn't separate Himself. The body He inhabited died of extremely large amounts of trauma, and Jesus left it for three days.

[Felgar]

wait what is his answer, i'm not sure i'm understanding it.
God simply cannot die and God can't separate himself from himself.
If anyone can explain how God can do the things above, please do so.

I think God could (and did) seperate himself from himself. This is possible because of the nature of the Trinity - the fact that the Trinity consists of the three persons.