Homosexuality and destroying faith

[zoegirl]

If History has taught us anything, it's that those who claim that we need to wait for society to adjust are rationalizing their reluctance.

In fact, *you* want society to condone homosexual marriage because you are ok with it... but somehow you want to hold onto your prejudice against polygamy because of you don't know anybody?!?!?

what difference does that make? In principle you agree but somehow your lack of personal experience makes your prejudice ok? If, in principle, it's ok then we should be pushing for acceptance just as the homosexual community has for their acceptance.

[Proinsias]

Zoe:

If History has taught us anything, it's that those who claim that we need to wait for society to adjust are rationalizing their reluctance.

I'm not saying that we need to wait for society to change. I'm saying that legal changes and societal changes should work together and that the intended outcome will not be immediate no matter how hard we try.

In fact, *you* want society to condone homosexual marriage because you are ok with it... but somehow you want to hold onto your prejudice against polygamy because of you don't know anybody?!?!?

Yeah.

what difference does that make? In principle you agree but somehow your lack of personal experience makes your prejudice ok? If, in principle, it's ok then we should be pushing for acceptance just as the homosexual community has for their acceptance.

I'm not going to agree to something because 'in principle' it seems fine. I'm not advocating same sex marriages because 'in principle' I think it should be allowed. I'm advocating them because of interactions with homosexuals I'm close to. I feel strongly about it as I'm in close contact with those affected by it. It's far more to do with love and relationships I have with people than it is about generic principles. If I have a close relationship with many polygamous couplings then I may fight their corner, I don't.

I'm not saying my prejudice is OK, but it ain't going to shift without some human interaction. As far as polygamy goes, I don't have that. My life was spent with racism, homophobia, sexism and gender issues, so I try to work against that. In all honesty I'd rather spend my time combating things I'm familiar with than trying to combat things that this logically leads to, in principle, when we consider definitions.

[DannyM]

The bible clearly says the earth was created in six days yet the church of england has issued an apology to darwin who's theorys go against that scripture. Christians readily admit that this could be a translation error. 'How long is a day to god' We forget that the bible was written by man is interpreted by man and is administered by man. Man as we all know is fallable. So it is possible for the church to change its stand on issues. Especially when its back is against the wall as it was in the case of darwin (and gallileo)
Many say science has shown that homesexuality exsists in many species and some even contend that it is a genetic response to overpopulation. The nature of things did a show on homosexual rats and also a group of homosexual wolves trapped on an island in the queen charlette islands. These wolves turn to homosexuality when faces with starvation and disease due to overpopulation. Or so the theory goes. I cannot find that episode of the nature of things i just remember it as i found it interesting. I did however find this http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx This article claims that homosexuality is a natural phenomenom in nature. Quote "One fundamental premise in social debates has been that homosexuality is unnatural. This premise is wrong. Homosexuality is both common and highly essential in the lives of a number of species,"
I personally think that the sooner the church resolves some of its archaic doctrine the sooner we can work towards tolerance of all people. I would mention the ones (doctrines) i feel are most important but it would highjack this thread with responses out of place. Suffice it to say that church attendance by youth is waaaaay down and it is a direct result of antiquated policies IMO.
ty. SML

I'm afraid you have an inverted view. The Church of England, among others, has been bending over backwards, in many cases abandoning traditional doctrine, in the attempt the liberalise herself and appeal to "everyone" for years now. It is precisely this TURNING AWAY from traditional Christianity which has seen the massive drop in congregations up and down the country. You have your ideas all around the wrong way, I'm afraid. You can also throw in the lack of any moral guidence from successive governments as a contribution to the lack of interest from the youth. What you really, quite urgently need to do is look at the whole social structure of your country, rather than simply lashing out at the church, like some insane, swivel-eyed French revolutionary. Go and take a look at the state of your country, the social ramifications of quasi-conservative governments and then, like the cherry on the cake, "New" Labour. Look at Tony Blair, Alistair Campbell, Margaret Hodge, Patricia Hewitt, Charlie Whealen, a disgracefully complient and subservient BBC, a politicised Metropolitan Police force, the Bernie Eccelstone scandal, Peter Mandalson and the dodgy mortgages, sacked twice, reinstated twice - as if the pathetic public wouldn't notice, the Hindiju brothers scandal, cash for peerages, millenium dome scandal, the axing of grammar schools, tuition fees, the contempt for Parliamentary procedure, the promotion of young, working mothers and the subsequent employment of nursery nurses and child minders to look after their children in a two-pronged attack to reduce unemployment figures- and to hell with the family! I'm not even breaking a sweat here, Sweet Monkey! This inverted, liberalisation of the United Kingdom is what you need to be looking at. I think it's safe to say that a halt to this nauseating dumbing down of a whole culture, from top to bottom, is indeed in order. Let us dispense with the experiment of liberal, fickle, dumbed down politics and social life. Let us get the CofE back on a traditional path, then watch the congregations swell to the point of being heaving.

Dan

[Texasmomof3]

I think that it is hard to believe that anyone these days can think that gays are being attacked, when in my opinion, they are actually being put on pedestals. Churches are actually putting them in pulpits, (like Episcopalians, for example), which in my humble opinion, is like putting an open adulterer in the pulpit. Either way is wrong, as both are sins. We may not be able to speak too harshly, ot "throw stones", but it is a sin, for why else would God have destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah?? I believe that it is a cross to bear for the very small percentage of the population that may TRULY be afflicted with this, but now, it has become popular, yes, I do believe that it has become something that garners attention to alot of people that never would have considered it before. You see it so often on TV shows, and in movies, that the clever, funny person is gay, that alot of confused young people are thinking that could make them popular. Also, young people who are angry or want to make a statement will do it to upset their parents or "society", and even alot of Hollywood people are all of the sudden saying they are gay to get attention when their careers are out of steam, the most recent was Meredith Baxter Birney, who had been married 3 times !! Many others are not really gay, but have been molested, and so have suffered a crisis in sexual identity from it, like my brother. I think that it is something that should be faced, and that Christians should stand up and say that although it is a sin, we should definitely be kind about how to share scriptures to try and help someone learn about what the Bible says, if possible, if not, that we do have our right to feel like we do, and that we care about others, for all have sinned, we just don't feel you should embrace and wear it proudly. As far as "tolerance" about this issue, I think that those who support gay marriage, and the gay lifestyle, have not demonstrated very much tolerance on their side, anyone who has an honest, Christian difference of opinion is instantly labeled prejudiced, and if a parent wished to keep literature out of schools that would teach children at ages as young as kindergarten about gays, they are attacked as being haters. I do not see tolerance for a difference of opinion on the so called tolerant side at all. What about the efforts to publish all the names of those who dared to support proposition 8 ? Then what would they do to the people listed in the newspaper? Harass them, that is what they do! If you can say that it is okay for a bunch of gays to storm a church in San Francisco, then you are being hypocritical. I think that you should instead ask yourselves why you don't think that the blatant sexual behavior that occurs on the streets of San Francisco during the Folsom Street fair should be protested, for it is truly amazing that such disgusting acts are done out in the open, when I would think it would be just as disgusting for any heterosexual people to perform sexual acts out in the open, and I also believe that you would see more protests about that than you do about what happens between gays on the streets in San Francisco.

[SweetMonkeyLove]

Congratulations on the baby. It may be hard to focus for a while!

You got that right lol. it's been four weeks and I am still dazzeled! What an experience! Ty for the congrats.

[SweetMonkeyLove]

I personally think that the sooner the church resolves some of its archaic doctrine the sooner we can work towards tolerance of all people. I would mention the ones (doctrines) i feel are most important but it would highjack this thread with responses out of place. Suffice it to say that church attendance by youth is waaaaay down and it is a direct result of antiquated policies IMO.
ty. SML

-_- really? I am 22, I love God and the current Church doctrine. The youth is brain washed, given half the facts and indoctrinated in the public schools. Don't say they aren't, I was there not too long ago and upon independent research found that they teach only half stories, that aside, they leave the Church because of that, because they are told that it is wrong to believe that homosexuality is wrong. Why is it that we have to change our faith every time it offends someone? Why? Why don't you try working on Islam, they kill and beat homosexuals. We tolerate them, we just don't want them using our union which is marriage, a union between a man and a woman (1 man and 1 woman... not more). I find what you have said to be an offense to my faith. I will not change the way I believe just because someone wants me too. Men and women were made for each other, it works in a natural way, it's how God wanted it to be. Why don't they just accept that? Why do they have to use our union for their purposes? Why do we have to change, and not the other way around?

The bible clearly says the earth was created in six days yet the church of england has issued an apology to darwin who's theorys go against that scripture. Christians readily admit that this could be a translation error. 'How long is a day to god'

I really don't think the Church of england can speak for all the Christians. Further more how is it a translation error, it was symbolic, it's how you take the word 'day' and it is possible that it means a longer period of time (like the sun rise and set is the dawn and dusk of an era) or it could mean one day, I am for the former. But just because they changed that doesn't mean we should change our moral ideas, how does that have to do with morals? Our doctrine on homosexuality is a moral one, and isn't subject to science. To be honest, I don't believe that it isn't a choice. Some one once asked me how do I know I am not gay? Simple, I don't want to be, I want to be straight, and I am. Even a gay friend at my work says it's his choice, and he doesn't believe that gays should marry either. All in all it is a moral thing and science doesn't dictate our morals.

We forget that the bible was written by man is interpreted by man and is administered by man. Man as we all know is fallable. So it is possible for the church to change its stand on issues. Especially when its back is against the wall as it was in the case of darwin (and gallileo)

God's word is His inspired word, we interpret it through His Holy Spirit, and it is and always will be administered by God through His people. And so far as Gallileo is concerned, the Bible never said we were the center of the solar system.

Christianity has changed its stance on issues in the past (flat earth) and this is one it should consider.

The Bible never said the earth was flat -_- come on now, monks told Columbus it was round...
Okay well I have put in my two cents, I do tolerate homosexuals and if they want their own union well that is fine by me as long as it isn't marriage. I don't mind if they have benefits or whatever, but do they really have to have our union? Why not make their own?

I will not change the way I believe just because someone wants me too. Men and women were made for each other, it works in a natural way, it's how God wanted it to be. Why don't they just accept that? Why do they have to use our union for their purposes? Why do we have to change, and not the other way around?

The rite of marriage predates written history but was adopted by the state to encompass all people christian or not. I am married but am not religious and no one takes issue with it because I married a woman. What homosexuals are concerned with are things like pensions and the right to inherit their partners possesions as well as the recognition of their human rights. Call it marriage or call it a union it does not matter. They still share their lives with each other and still experience love like the rest of us. No one is asking you to change your opinion of it, only to tolerate that which you do not believe in.

The Bible never said the earth was flat -_- come on now, monks told Columbus it was round...

As it turns out you are correct. I was not aware that that was such a huge misrepresentation. I apologise for my ignorance on that subject. It was meant as an example of the church's apparent unwillingness to keep up to modern times.

And so far as Gallileo is concerned, the Bible never said we were the center of the solar system.

I read up on the flat earth concept and admitted my folly please read up on gallileo. He was a considered a heretic for his beliefs. He was long dead when the apology came.

The bible clearly says the earth was created in six days yet the church of england has issued an apology to darwin who's theorys go against that scripture. Christians readily admit that this could be a translation error. 'How long is a day to god'

Further more how is it a translation error, it was symbolic, it's how you take the word 'day' and it is possible that it means a longer period of time

we agree there

Why don't you try working on Islam, they kill and beat homosexuals.

The fanatics in any group are capable of such atrocities. Christian, Muslim and athiest alike.

Our doctrine on homosexuality is a moral one, and isn't subject to science. To be honest, I don't believe that it isn't a choice. Some one once asked me how do I know I am not gay? Simple, I don't want to be, I want to be straight, and I am. Even a gay friend at my work says it's his choice, and he doesn't believe that gays should marry either. All in all it is a moral thing and science doesn't dictate our morals.

Ask another gay person the same question. I assure you they will say it is not a choice. Sounds like your friend is experiencing more of an identity crisis than anything.

It seems that when I make a comment that disagrees with people here it is automatically assumed that I intend to offend. This is not the case. I may have to make that my signature lol. "SML believe it or not I am not here to offend but to discuss'
Sorry for the late reply. Ty. SML
Sorry I am not so good at using the quote option lol

[Imperial]

The poll at the beginning of this thread made me laugh XD You'd have to be a complete douche to do any of the choices. What if a group of people came up to you and put you down for being straight? What if they tried to make you gay when you don't wanna be? What if we lived in a world where Gay was the norm and being straight was the taboo thing? Put yourself in the gay's shoes before you plan to bug them with "z0mG UR Bad".

Though i know a lot of you on this forum are more accepting than the poll.

[Angellicrequiem]

I can't bring myself to condemn homosexuality vehemently. I leave that to God. I have a list of irritations that are far higher on my list:

Murderers, rapists, child molesters, promiscuity, abuse of authority, thieves, child abuse, spousal abuse, belligerence, bigotry, and a host of others. By the time I reach homosexuals, I have no energy left other than to say "I don't agree with your lifestyle. On the other hand, do you think my wife would like this dress?" I'm afraid in this day and age, homosexuality takes too much energy away from too many other malicious practices.

[Patricia]

While I believe that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin, I don't feel that Christians should target homosexual sinners anymore than we target adulterers or racists or blasphemers. Pray for them and pray that God saves them from their sinful lifestyle.

I have to admit that I wonder if homosexuality is something that one is born with and therefore cannot be changed, as many argue. If that is the case, how should Christians treat homsexuals? If it is not a choice, can someone change from gay to straight? I've heard that ex-gay ministries are a farce and that one cannot change their sexual identity.

This is a tough question and I believe that Christians should approach it with gentleness and meekness. Jesus told sinners after healing them to "go and sin no more", so I can imagine that Christian homosexuals who believe that their activities are sinful must battle with themselves constantly.

[ramunematt]

It is something you are born with. You cannot change your sexuality. If you are born a homosexual, then you will stay that way because your sexuality originates in your genes. If you don't want to be gay then that's fine but may I suggest that you stop trying to make other people's life choices for them.

[Byblos]

It is something you are born with. You cannot change your sexuality. If you are born a homosexual, then you will stay that way because your sexuality originates in your genes.

Prove it.

[ramunematt]

http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/

As you can see, it is very much natural. There is no rational argument you can make against homosexuality, only intolerance.

[Gman]

http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

"The question of how homosexual orientation originates has been the subject of much press, with the general impression being promoted that homosexuality is largely a matter of genes, rather than environmental factors. However, if one examines the scientific literature, one finds that it's not quite as clear as the news bytes would suggest. The early studies that reported differences in the brains of homosexuals were complicated by HIV infection and were not substantiated by larger, better controlled studies. Numerous studies reported that possible hormonal differences affected homosexual orientation. However, these studies were often directly contradictory, and never actually measured any hormone levels, but just used proxies for hormonal influences, without direct evidence that the proxies were actually indicative of true hormone levels or imbalances. Twin studies showed that there likely are genetic influences for homosexuality, although similar studies have shown some genetic influences for homophobia and even opposition to abortion. The fact that sexual orientation is not constant for many individuals, but can change over time suggests that at least part of sexual orientation is actually sexual preference. Attempts to find a "gay gene" have never identified any gene or gene product that is actually associated with homosexual orientation, with studies failing to confirm early suggestions of linkage of homosexuality to region Xq28 on the X chromosome. The question of genetic influences on sexual orientation could be definitively answered by using DNA microarray technology, although, to my knowledge, no such studies are planned or in progress."

http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... ality.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/

As you can see, it is very much natural. There is no rational argument you can make against homosexuality, only intolerance.

There is no conclusive evidence for this. Animals are not homosexual... Your source only reveals accident homosexual encounters.. They do not choose homosexual mates.. In fact after they try it and figure out that it is wrong or doesn't work, they stop doing it..

[Byblos]

And perhaps you would care to explain the cases of identical twins where one is homosexual and the other heterosexual.

[ramunematt]

What makes you think it is accidental? They have been observed with multiple partners of the same sex more than once, especially the bonobo. They are well aware that they can't reproduce with the same sex, they have a thing called instinct. Are you really willing to say up to 1500 species of animals, 500 which were well studied, would just ignore their instincts? For what motive? Do you even realize the level of consciousness an animal needs to defy it's instincts? How do you explain the homosexuality of species which have brains that are not developed enough to work outside of instinct? And remember that the homosexuality they speak of is not just about sex, it is also about courtship. The article I posted mentioned homosexual birds raising young and bonding for life. A quarter of black swan families engage in this practice, and the only time they show heterosexuality is to mate. Once the female lays the egg, she is chased off and the homosexual couple raises it.

If you still don't think it's natural then here you go. It is not only natural in the animal kingdom (don't forget, we're animals too) but actually helps the species continue. And if you bring up a link, make sure it is from somewhere credible. A biased website with a purely religious agenda which will selectively pick out articles only if they agree with their religion is not credible.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... nimal.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie ... study.html

But my main point is: keep thy religion to thyself. If you think homosexuality is wrong, and you don't want to do it, then don't do it. Nobody is trying to force you to be homosexual, but here we have all these Christians trying to force homosexuals to be heterosexual. There is no reason you should try interfering with other people's lifestyles. What people do in their bedrooms and their relationships,is none of your business. You know what the difference is between the 1500 homosexual species and us? They don't discriminate against other animal's lifestyle like most of the people are doing on this forum.