Carnivorous animals before the fall...

[Canuckster1127]

But there are plenty of passages that raise that question Jac. Not always with the term justification but certainly with a sense of salvation and at the very least the anticipation that works are resultant. Reformed theology itself recognizes it. Surely you don't need me to recount them for you. I certainly agree with you that basing something on one verse is ill advised in this or any other instance. You asked however for one instance, and you were given it so it would seem somewhat disingenuous to then turn and claim that only the one instance argues against it when that's what you asked for in the first place.

[dayage]

I have to agree with Jac. Romans 2:15-16 shows that doing the works of the law shows that the heart is right before God. Other works done to help others are also witness to our justication. This is what James argues. Paul and James make it clear that we were saved to do good works, but they do not save. They simply show our true faith.

John 6:28-29
28 They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

[Jac3510]

But there are plenty of passages that raise that question Jac. Not always with the term justification but certainly with a sense of salvation and at the very least the anticipation that works are resultant. Reformed theology itself recognizes it. Surely you don't need me to recount them for you. I certainly agree with you that basing something on one verse is ill advised in this or any other instance. You asked however for one instance, and you were given it so it would seem somewhat disingenuous to then turn and claim that only the one instance argues against it when that's what you asked for in the first place.

I know of no other verses that raise the question of future justification. The only way to make that argument is to conflate justification with salvation, as if they are the same thing. They aren't. Words have meaning, and the words "salvation" and "justification" do not mean the same thing.

In any case, you know that I'm not much of a reformed theologian. The reformers themselves were much more on target than modern reformed theology, with its rejection of eternal security in favor of the final perseverance of the saints. Given that I hold to eternal security, I most certainly don't agree that justification anticipates works. Certainly, we ought to do good works, but they have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation--neither to gain it, as Arminians say and NPs say or to demonstrate it as Calvinists say.

So I come back to my fundamental challenge: you show me any verses that show a future aspect of justification and we'll talk. Until then, I maintain that justification is strictly and totally a past event with no present or future aspect.

I have to agree with Jac. Romans 2:15-16 shows that doing the works of the law shows that the heart is right before God. Other works done to help others are also witness to our justication. This is what James argues. Paul and James make it clear that we were saved to do good works, but they do not save. They simply show our true faith.

Eh . . . I have a pretty different take on James. I don't think that good works are any indicator of true faith, nor is a lack of good works an indicator of a lack of faith, but that's for a different thread. So far as this one goes, I think we agree on Romans 2.

What do you make of Danny's argument, DA? I'm totally lost and waiting for his clarification. I quoted him saying that he takes kosmos to mean humanity, but now he is saying he never said that. As an outsider observing this who has been critical of both of our positions, what have I missed in his view that you see?

[dayage]

Jac,

What do you make of Danny's argument, DA? I'm totally lost and waiting for his clarification. I quoted him saying that he takes kosmos to mean humanity, but now he is saying he never said that. As an outsider observing this who has been critical of both of our positions, what have I missed in his view that you see?

I'm confused, now, also. I thought he and I agreed that kosmos here (Romans 5:12) refered to humanity. He stated this in two different places on page 11.

If he believes now that it is space and time, what does he do with the fact that the serpent (I believe Satan) was already acting within space-time before Adam sinned?

Maybe he is trying to agree with what I said earlier, about our sinfulness affecting creation around us. He disagreed with this earlier. But, I believe this applies in Romans 8, not 5:12. I'll be posting about the questions he had for me on Romans 8, hopefully Sunday (today).

[DannyM]

Jac,

I'm don't have too much time right now. I'm getting confused myself. I never took 5:12 to mean "just as sin entered humanity through one man." I took the world to mean the world. The verse is still about mankind, but you don't need to say sin entered humanity. Maybe I thought that sin "entered the world of mankind." I've got a lot on my plate right now but will give sort this out soon. Although I will say that I have never called your "intellectual capacity" into question at any time. So apologies if this is the impression you have. I will be back proper in the middle of next week. Be prepared for more confusion

God bless

[RickD]

Jac,

What do you make of Danny's argument, DA? I'm totally lost and waiting for his clarification. I quoted him saying that he takes kosmos to mean humanity, but now he is saying he never said that. As an outsider observing this who has been critical of both of our positions, what have I missed in his view that you see?

I'm confused, now, also. I thought he and I agreed that kosmos here (Romans 5:12) refered to humanity. He stated this in two different places on page 11.

If he believes now that it is space and time, what does he do with the fact that the serpent (I believe Satan) was already acting within space-time before Adam sinned?

Maybe he is trying to agree with what I said earlier, about our sinfulness affecting creation around us. He disagreed with this earlier. But, I believe this applies in Romans 8, not 5:12. I'll be posting about the questions he had for me on Romans 8, hopefully Sunday (today).

dayage, I posed a question in another thread about how the fall of Satan affects the world. It seems like no one wanted to talk about the topic. Is it a "taboo" topic? Doesn't anyone have an opinion about the 1st sinner's influence on creation? I think Satan's fall might have an influence on animal death before man's sin.

[DannyM]

If he believes now that it is space and time, what does he do with the fact that the serpent (I believe Satan) was already acting within space-time before Adam sinned?

Was the "serpent" a being?

[dayage]

RickD,
I do not believe that the fall of Satan had any effect on the physical creation apart from his successful tempting of man.

DannyM,
It seems to me that the text suggests that Satan either took on the form of a material creature or possessed one. Therefore, he was interacting within the physical realm.

I was guessing at what you meant and suggesting that sin would have already been within the physical realm and wondering how that idea might be understood in light of scripture indicating that Adam introduced sin into thekosmos, if we take kosmos to refer to all space and time.

[RickD]

RickD,
I do not believe that the fall of Satan had any effect on the physical creation apart from his successful tempting of man.

DannyM,
It seems to me that the text suggests that Satan either took on the form of a material creature or possessed one. Therefore, he was interacting within the physical realm.

I was guessing at what you meant and suggesting that sin would have already been within the physical realm and wondering how that idea might be understood in light of scripture indicating that Adam introduced sin into thekosmos, if we take kosmos to refer to all space and time.

Thanks for the response dayage. Even if Satan's fall had no effect on creation, we still have to admit that sin had already entered creation before Adam's fall, correct? What consequence does Satan's fall have on us? Is it only that since he rebelled, he was able to tempt us?

[dayage]

Hey RickD,

Even if Satan's fall had no effect on creation, we still have to admit that sin had already entered creation before Adam's fall, correct?

I believe so. This is why I was asking about this idea in relation to Romans 5:12. Here it says that whatever Kosmos is was, sin entered it through Adam, not Satan. That is one reason I believe that Kosmos here refers to humanity.

What consequence does Satan's fall have on us? Is it only that since he rebelled, he was able to tempt us?

He and his demons(devils) can still tempt us as well as possess nonbelievers. His main goal would seem to be to distract us in any way possible from following Jesus. As believers he tries to bring in guilt from past sins to cause us not to feel worthy of following Jesus and give up.

Sometimes it can be to put down the efforts of other believers. I remember being in a Christian book store listening to Christian heavy metal music. I was listening to CDs to try and decide if I wanted to buy them when I noticed three guys standing over me. I took of the headphones and they asked me why I was listening to that music. I told them about how I like heavy metal, but not the lyrics of the groups I had been listening to. After our conversation they told me that they had been trying to start up a couple of Christian metal bands, but others told them that they could not worship Jesus that way. Now, they said, they knew it was what God wanted them to do. They told me that meeting me had been a divine appointment. I was on cloud nine for a week.

Some have pointed to the storm that Jesus calmed as a possible example of Satan or demons controlling the weather (Matthew 8:24-26). They make this connection because of the demon-possessed men on the other side of the sea. I'm not sure about that.

[RickD]

Hey RickD,

Even if Satan's fall had no effect on creation, we still have to admit that sin had already entered creation before Adam's fall, correct?

I believe so. This is why I was asking about this idea in relation to Romans 5:12. Here it says that whatever Kosmos is was, sin entered it through Adam, not Satan. That is one reason I believe that Kosmos here refers to humanity.

That's a great point, dayage. Either sin had already entered the world first with Satan's sin, or Satan's fall happened before the Big Bang. I think it would be a great topic to discuss.

[dayage]

DannyM,

Here is the proof of what creation Paul meant in these verses, the same being the creation which is in "the bondage of corruption," terminology which excludes both the sub-human and inanimate creations and points dramatically at humankind. The corruption here cannot fit animal or inanimate life.

Why?

You need to explain to me in some kind of depth what you mean by creation; how can an inanimate creation fit with Paul's vivid discourse?

See below.

No animal, for example, could be thought of as being in the bondage of corruption, nor as having any prospect of ever getting out of it.

It depends on what is meant by the phrase. A slave (something in bondage) has a master. In Genesis 1:26-30 God created man and put him in charge of the environment of earth (animals and plants/agriculture; see Gen. 2:15-16, 19-20 and also Ps. 8:6-8). In fact in Genesis 1:28 God told man to kabash (subdue, bring into bondage) and to radah (rule over) the earth and what is in it. Psalm 8:6 gives the same picture. Man was given dominion (mashal) and all things were "put under his feet" (shiyth tahat regel).

In light of the surrounding context, corruption seems to refer to mankind's sinfulness. So, creation is in slavery to man's sinfulness. We can see examples of how man's sins affect creation (Gen. 3:17-18, Gen. 6-9; Lev. 18:1-25, 20:22; Num. 35:33-34; Deut. 29:22-27; Ps. 107:33-34). We also find how sin brings about creation's sorrow or displeasure (Romans 8:22; Is. 24:3-7; Jere. 12:4,11, 23:10; Hosea 4:2-3).

You might ask, "what about the pains of child birth?" Birth is an analogy for resurrection (Romans 8:19, 22-23; Is. 26:16-21; Colo. 1:18; Rev. 1:5).

Even we groan for our resurrection (Romans 8:18, 23; II Cor. 5:1-4).

I am not sure if Paul is saying here that the heathens themselves shall be set free from the bondage of corruption come the last push, so to speak, but what we can be left in no doubt about is that we, God's people, indwelt by the Spirit, find ourselves in our own mortal bodies part of this same creation, groaning in labour-pains as we await God's new world.

First, our groaning is for our resurrection, not the new creation. The second and most important problem is that your statement seems to point towards the possibility of universalism (universal salvation). This is flatly denied in the Bible. Maybe I misunderstood your meaning here.

[DannyM]

Jac, Dayage,

This is me from pg11:

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death though sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all have sinned." "Sin" here is used in the singular, meaning as by one man. By the sin of Adam. Sin entered into the world. The world of mankind is meant here for sure. Adam's tansgression and thus sin entering the world guranteed man's mortality and spiritual death. Romans for me likewise alludes to both mankind's physical and spiritual deaths- both of these things entered the world at the point of Adam's sin. Romans 5:12 is in my view talking about the world of mankind.

I clearly say the world of mankind. Have I been too liberal with my use of kosmos?

I'm currently meditating on the whole of Romans once more. Please allow me some time to tighten up any chinks in my argument.

[Jac3510]

Danny,

Yes--that's exactly my point. I'm not sure if you have looked at the definition of kosmos. It means either:

1. The created world;
2. The inhabited world;
3. The world of mankind (i.e., humanity).

The first is the entirety (or some particular part) of the inanimate creation--the universe, the earth, etc. The second means to the part of the world in which men live. The third means all people. So when the Pharisees complain that the whole "world" was going out to Jesus, they were talking about people, not the inanimate creation.

When you say that you take Rom 5:12 to mean "the world of mankind," you are saying it means "humanity" or "all people." That's a valid use of the word, and that is how I have been taking you to mean it the entire time, which is why I said that your interpretation of Rom 5:12 seems to be, essentially, "Just like all of humanity is dying because of Adam's sin, you are dying because of yours." I just don't think that makes any sense. It certainly doesn't contribute to Paul's argument as it would be, at best, a mere tautology.

[dayage]

DannyM,
you said

Adam's tansgression and thus sin entering the world guranteed man's mortality and spiritual death. Romans for me likewise alludes to both mankind's physical and spiritual deaths- both of these things entered the world at the point of Adam's sin. Romans 5:12 is in my view talking about the world of mankind.

I would like to point out that I already broke down Romans 5 and showed why it has to be spiritual death only which Paul refers to here. We see this played out in Genesis 3:6-13. Paul makes the clear link between sin and this death.

In 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 Paul does not make this link, but he does link this death with Adam. Here the chapter is about physical death and physical resurrection. If we go back to Genesis 3:22-23 we see that physical death was the result of God, not wanting man to remain lost, removing him from the Tree of Life so that he would not live forever. This allowed Jesus to be able to die for our sins. Physical death is an indirect consequence of Adam sinning, but a direct consequence of God removing Adam from the Tree of Life.