Faith: the absolute virtue?

[Anonymous]

First of all, I'd like to thank the people who created this website and the people who post on this forum: I have been spending hours going over the website and the posts, and I find the arguments and the discussions overall very healthy and constructive. For I am French, please excuse potential grammatical inaccuracies !

I am a firm believer in God, as a creator. I am a firm believer that God is harmony, equilibrium, wisdom. Everything around me tells me that the world, the universe, were designed (this website holds some overwhelming arguments against atheist points of view, so I encourage any atheist or agnostic to check it out to test their beliefs...) Most of all, I can feel God in my heart and soul, in my conscience. I know that most christians can relate to my position up to this point, but I am not a christian. I have always been a very "logical", down to earth person. I don't believe what I am told unless I have good reasons to. Of course, I often rely on faith in my life, whenever i take my car or take the plane, but this faith is backed up by strong facts (for example: I'm a good driver and plane crashes are one in a million...).
My honest question to christians is: why should faith be a virtue, or even more, THE absolute virtue, the one that gives the key to eternal life? When reading the bible, I can only embrace Jesus' teachings ans morals, but they are not compatible with the concept of the cleansing faith through Jesus as one's savior. This concept is twisted in many ways and collides with my struggle to be as logical and objective as possible because:

-In the end, all sins are equal: If you sin, you deserve to die, whether you lied, cheated, stole or committed genocide, in the eye of God, you are a sinner and the only way out of eternal damnation is asking for forgiveness through Jesus Christ and accept him as your savior because he died for our sins...This concept goes against my very conception of a wise God, who should know the difference between stealing an orange and killing millions of people. In that matter, man is wiser and more fair than the christian God, because we DO understand the difference and try to judge accordingly. How could god create us with this fairness without having it himself?

-This concept does not only represent an unfair God regarding sins and virtues, it pictures him pompous, selfish and so self-centered that the very first thing that he wants from his creatures is obediance and worship. All other virtues come after faith, all other sins come after the lack of faith. It looks like heavenly fascism to me. According to Christianity, a population filled with loving, caring, moral people without faith is doomed, but a population filled with wicked kkk like madmen with God fearing, sin cleansing faith would go to heaven...(in that case, send me in hell, please!! )

Not only is this concept completely illogical in my eyes, it contradicts the very image the christians hold of God: a God of love an forgiveness.

On the other hand, this concept is a great manipulation tool that is commonly used to bring people to christianity through fear.

What do you think of my opinion on this subject, and what do you think of the christian God? Thank you for reading my post, and thank you for your input...

[Felgar]

I am French

I wanted to take a shot here, but esspecially on your first post I'm not sure how you'd take it. Are you pretty light-hearted?

I am a firm believer in God, as a creator. I am a firm believer that God is harmony, equilibrium, wisdom. Everything around me tells me that the world, the universe, were designed (this website holds some overwhelming arguments against atheist points of view, so I encourage any atheist or agnostic to check it out to test their beliefs...) Most of all, I can feel God in my heart and soul, in my conscience. I know that most christians can relate to my position up to this point

Yup, agree 100%... Let's discuss why you resist taking that final step.

According to Christianity, a population filled with loving, caring, moral people without faith is doomed

My comment on this is peripheral so I quoted it out of order. Understand that according to Christianity, there is no such thing as a population filled with loving, caring, moral people without faith. And also understand that for the same reasons (simply, that Love comes from God) it is not true that KKK members have any faith at all - they are your perverbial wolves in sheeps clothing.

-In the end, all sins are equal: If you sin, you deserve to die, whether you lied, cheated, stole or committed genocide, in the eye of God, you are a sinner and the only way out of eternal damnation is asking for forgiveness through Jesus Christ and accept him as your savior because he died for our sins...This concept goes against my very conception of a wise God, who should know the difference between stealing an orange and killing millions of people.

Ok, here is the central issue... You do not see that God is just because you disagree with the concept that ANY sin (no matter of the severity) will condemn you to suffering unless you have forgiveness. This does not seem like justice to you. Is my understanding correct?

Assuming that I understand you... I think you should back up one step and let's try to nail down the logical nature of God - if you disagree with God's nature as portrayed in Christianity, then let's define what nature of God would make more sense to you. For me, the concept of absolute holiness is one that does not bother me at all - to exist in God's presence along with this perfect holiness, we MUST be sinless. In heaven, you could say that we will be literally merged with God (part of our spiritual existance) and so it just can't be possible for us to be carrying sin. Sin and God just don't mix; would you have it any other way?

So by what means would you expect God to allow just a little sin into heaven? Where would God draw the line? Maybe only murders are kept out? What about thieves? What about adulturers? Even were it not just fundamentally against the nature of holiness to coexist with sin, what would heaven be like if God permitted all of that? Much like Earth, really. But I feel that God has promised us so much more.

And the best part, is that God has provided us with the mechanism to be free of all sin, and it's free. We need only reach and accept it; then we take our place in His presence. He has even provided means for those who never hear about Jesus to accept that gift. He provided us all with the innate understanding that He is real and that He is calling you (as you attest to personally at the start of your post). That heart is what you will be judged on - do you love God and submit yourself to him, or do you maintain your own pride and sense of righteousness? And now that you've heard, you seek Him through His son who will provide you with the Holy Spirit that enables you to have a relationship with Him even while living here on Earth.

In summary, I guess my main point is that really I don't see any other possible nature of God that could coexist with sin. So being all-loving, God provides anyone who loves Him with grace and cleansing of all sin, through the sacrifice of Jesus.

Edit: P.S. Welcome to the forums! And thank you for approaching us with your sincere questions on your journey of understanding. You definately serve as an excellent example of what we want this forum to be.

[bizzt]

Nice response

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your answer Felgar, but you did not answer my question, you went around it! According to you, God's holiness can not stand sin, yet he created us so we HAVE to sin. Our very nature leads us to sin, and according to christianity, sin leads death and eternal damnation UNLESS you repent and ask for forgiveness, but, in order to do that, you must have faith. Therefore, faith is considered the ABSOLUTE virtue, above all others. In my opinion, God created us the way he wanted us to be, with free will to sin, to help, to love, according to the life we lead and what we go through. As you say, a sinless world is impossible, good can only exist with evil: it's never black or white, it's all shades of grey. One of the major problems I have with Christianity is that it upholds this concept of every single human being sinful and unworthy of living, that quite disturbing servant to master relationship. But for the sake of discussion, let's say I have no problem with this concept, that God can not co-exist with sin and therefore sinners. It is said in the Bible that sin can be washed away...How? With faith! Why? Because the holy christian God does not really "care" (at least not enough to base his forgiveness on other matters than faith) about how we lived our lives, as long as we asked, at one point, for his forgiveness...You say faith is FREE, just the fact that I wonder about God's motivation is the proof that it's not...I can not just "believe", I have to have good reasons to do so, just like everything I do that really matters to me. I would never doubt the existence of God, but his nature in the Bible does not appeal to me: I don't love the christian God... Just as I can't control my faith, I can't make myself love, and that's what makes love so beautiful...

[Anonymous]

And, despite the fact that I'm french , thank you for welcoming me to this forum!!

[Felgar]

Thank you for your answer Felgar, but you did not answer my question, you went around it!

I was trying; really I was. I'd like another chance. If you can restate your actual question in a single sentance, then I'll respond directly to it.

It is said in the Bible that sin can be washed away...How? With faith! Why? Because the holy christian God does not really "care" (at least not enough to base his forgiveness on other matters than faith) about how we lived our lives, as long as we asked, at one point, for his forgiveness...You say faith is FREE, just the fact that I wonder about God's motivation is the proof that it's not...I can not just "believe", I have to have good reasons to do so, just like everything I do that really matters to me. I would never doubt the existence of God, but his nature in the Bible does not appeal to me: I don't love the christian God... I don't love the christian God... Just as I can't control my faith, I can't make myself love, and that's what makes love so beautiful...

I cannot understand how you can say that His nature does appeal to you. And I'd like to point out, that you did not answer my question, which was "what nature of God would you find more desirable?"

Actually, faith is not free. Grace is actually the removal of our sin and that is free, given to anyone with faith. And faith is simply the acceptance of the free gift. It's like a fountain - you can go and drink at any time for free. But just standing by the fountain does not quench your thirst. All God is asking for is your love - why is that unreasonable?

(He's not even asking that you love Him for no reason - He's asking that you love Him for all the best reasons. He's not expecting you to just start loving Him for no reason - He's asking you to understand that you're a sinner, to understand the sacrifice He made for you, and to accept His gift which is to make you perfect whereupon you can live eternally surrounded by His infinite love) These verses reinforce what I'm saying:

1 John 4:15-19
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us.

He's only asking for love in return, and we know He loved first because of Jesus.

Romans 5:8-10
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

I mean, do the verses from John simply mean nothing to you? Read them 3-4 times - what other religion can make those claims? And what other claim besides that could you possibly want and expect from an Almighty God?

And, despite the fact that I'm french , thank you for welcoming me to this forum!!

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

-This concept does not only represent an unfair God regarding sins and virtues, it pictures him pompous, selfish and so self-centered that the very first thing that he wants from his creatures is obediance and worship. All other virtues come after faith, all other sins come after the lack of faith. It looks like heavenly fascism to me. According to Christianity, a population filled with loving, caring, moral people without faith is doomed, but a population filled with wicked kkk like madmen with God fearing, sin cleansing faith would go to heaven...(in that case, send me in hell, please!! )

If these KKK men were God fearing Christians....they wouldn't be doing what the KKK does best-discriminate, hate, and hang! They'd be a population filled with loving, caring, moral people

-In the end, all sins are equal: If you sin, you deserve to die, whether you lied, cheated, stole or committed genocide, in the eye of God, you are a sinner and the only way out of eternal damnation is asking for forgiveness through Jesus Christ and accept him as your savior because he died for our sins...This concept goes against my very conception of a wise God, who should know the difference between stealing an orange and killing millions of people. In that matter, man is wiser and more fair than the christian God, because we DO understand the difference and try to judge accordingly. How could god create us with this fairness without having it himself?

-This concept does not only represent an unfair God regarding sins and virtues, it pictures him pompous, selfish and so self-centered that the very first thing that he wants from his creatures is obediance and worship. All other virtues come after faith, all other sins come after the lack of faith. It looks like heavenly fascism to me. According to Christianity, a population filled with loving, caring, moral people without faith is doomed, but a population filled with wicked kkk like madmen with God fearing, sin cleansing faith would go to heaven...(in that case, send me in hell, please!! )

Not only is this concept completely illogical in my eyes, it contradicts the very image the christians hold of God: a God of love an forgiveness.

On the other hand, this concept is a great manipulation tool that is commonly used to bring people to christianity through fear.

What do you think of my opinion on this subject, and what do you think of the christian God? Thank you for reading my post, and thank you for your input...

Lyouki, first of all, do you know anyone, who's only sin was to steal an orange? Most of us, by the age of 10, have broken most of the 10 commandments. Also, Lyouki, you should not make God bend down to man's standards. That's arrogant. God cannot be around sin, so any sin leads to death "for the wages of sin are death."

Not only is this concept completely illogical in my eyes, it contradicts the very image the christians hold of God: a God of love an forgiveness.

God is a paradox. After dabbling in Chesterton, I have come to realize that in many cases, he is absolutely right. God is a judge, but He is also forgiving and merciful. God hates sin, but loves the sinner. God sends sinful men to hell, but died on the cross so we didn't have to. If you actually think about what you need to be saved, God is MERCIFUL beyond belief. To be forgiven of millions of sins, made on a daily basis, unless you're in a coma, all you have to do is say Jesus is Lord, and HE takes your sins, and you're free-He's paid for your sin. You can do whatever you want, go murder millions, join the KKK-but you are saved. God said that though your father and mother will forsake you, He never will forsake you. God might take you out of the world a little early if you're being such a horrible example of Christianity, but you are saved.

Lyouki

And, despite the fact that I'm french , thank you for welcoming me to this forum!!

We don't hate the French. I don't particulary like the government, but that doesn't apply to the people as well.

[Kurieuo]

In the end, all sins are equal: If you sin, you deserve to die, whether you lied, cheated, stole or committed genocide, in the eye of God, you are a sinner and the only way out of eternal damnation is asking for forgiveness through Jesus Christ and accept him as your savior because he died for our sins...This concept goes against my very conception of a wise God, who should know the difference between stealing an orange and killing millions of people.

What do you mean by equal in "all sins are equal"? To be more specific, any sin condemns us from attaining the holiness required to be with an entirely righteous God, and in this way all sin could be said to be equally condemning. However, I think it obvious that some sins are obviously more atrocious than others. I think it a hard pill for anyone to swallow to say that child lying by saying "I didn't do it" is on the same par as Stalin who killed millions.

In that matter, man is wiser and more fair than the christian God, because we DO understand the difference and try to judge accordingly. How could god create us with this fairness without having it himself?

Many religions acknowledge we are imperfect, and they try to remedy this by formulating rituals, and willing themselves on in an effort towards perfection. If God said to the poor man that in order to be with Him he had to pay 700 billion dollars by the end of the day, now that would seem unfair. This is what all religions other than orthodox Christianity teach. They teach we can attain perfection... yet, they glim over past imperfections which stop us from ever being entirely perfect. They are unfair as they teach we can (or must) become something we can never be—perfect. On the otherhand, God within Christianity is accessible and attainable by all. All a person has to do is come to Christ as they are with a sincere heart, and ask for forgiveness and help. I may be biassed, but Christianity seems to present a God who understands and knows us, and is compassionate in offering a way "anyone" can attain.

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your replies!!...

I want to believe in a forgiving, loving God who also has the ability to judge his creatures...I can understand that his very nature makes Him uncompatible with sin and therefore sinners...but you did not answer my question!!

WHY should faith be the only "cleansing" virtue?? Above all the good deeds that can be acomplished on this planet, God prefers faith and made it the key to heaven? If you confess to God all your sins and ask for forgiveness through Jesus Christ, you are "good to go?", no matter what you did during your life? I think that if you TRULY believe in the teachings of the Christ, you will try (and often fail, of course...) to act accordingly, so what is faith after all? I think that, to an extent, rapists, child murderers, pedophiles and so forth, can have "faith"... If faith is just an honest plea for forgiveness, it can just be used as an "easy" way to go to heaven...Imagine the disastrous consequences of such a belief for people falling in that category: "I know I'm a horrible person, my very LIFE is a sin, but it's ok, I believe in God, and I know his nature is to forgive through faith only..." Talk about sin being incompatible with God and Heaven!!!

But you say that God is all loving, and his nature is to forgive, which I also believe (to an extent... ). But it gets sticky when Christians affirm God would actually find it righteous to let the "bad guys" into Heaven, but would not forgive a narrow minded, faithless, but yet very good folk (yes, they do exist!). Where is the forgiveness here? Don't you think that the cookies are more important than the jar? What I mean is: Jesus was not sent on earth only in order to be a living proof of God's existence and power, but also (and, in my opinion, most importantly), to deliver a message of love!

What matters the most?: that you understood the message and tried to live accordingly, even if the nature of the messenger is obscure to you, for any reason (being really down to earth, skeptical...take your pick, those features are not incompatible with goodness)..., or that you believed in, and aknowledged, the existence of the messenger and his holy nature but couldn't care less about the message, or never tried to live up to it ? I'm sure you have plenty of examples of church going, God fearing people who don't even try to follow Jesus' Word...But according to you, they are saved...It's even written on their houses' doors: "I'm saved, are you?"...Basically, I can screw up as much as I want, I'll be ok in the end, I've earned endless credit through Jesus' sacrifice...

Religion and philosophy are closely tied together, and I respect men's hunger for truth, and something tells me that there is a lot more to God than such a bizarre and most of all UNFAIR concept!

I was asked what was my conception of God, and it is extremely close to yours, except for this little tiny detail we are discussing...

PS: I hope none of you eat "freedom" fries...

[Kurieuo]

WHY should faith be the only "cleansing" virtue??

Faith is not the cleansing. Faith only provides hope in something. God dying on the cross in human form is what allows humanity to be cleansed from sin. The requirement for us to be perfect is an impossible feat, yet through faith in Christ we have hope in Christ's promise that we are able to be with God through Him despite our imperfections. In this way Christ paid our debt. Yet, if Christ spoke falsely about being the Way, then we are still in our sins and have no hope of being with God. All humanity would remain incompatible with God, and there is nothing God can do unless He turns from His righteous character to accept unrighteousness.

Above all the good deeds that can be acomplished on this planet, God prefers faith and made it the key to heaven?

No. God incarnate as Christ is the key, and as Christ is the way Christ is judge of those whom He chooses to extend His sacrificial payment to.

If you confess to God all your sins and ask for forgiveness through Jesus Christ, you are "good to go?", no matter what you did during your life?

If you confess to God your sins, and decide to follow after Christ whom you love, is it possible that you would desire to continue doing evil purposefully? Augustine once said, "Love God and do whatever you please." I agree 100% with his words.

Now if you love your parents, are you going to go do anything you want to hurt them? No, because if you love your parents you'd like to honour, respect and make them happy. The same is with God. It is absurd to say you love God, and then decide to do anything that shows anything but your love for God.

Kurieuo.

[Felgar]

I want to believe in a forgiving, loving God who also has the ability to judge his creatures...I can understand that his very nature makes Him uncompatible with sin and therefore sinners...

That's good! At least you understand what we're talking about.

WHY should faith be the only "cleansing" virtue?? Above all the good deeds that can be acomplished on this planet, God prefers faith and made it the key to heaven? If you confess to God all your sins and ask for forgiveness through Jesus Christ, you are "good to go?", no matter what you did during your life? I think that if you TRULY believe in the teachings of the Christ, you will try (and often fail, of course...) to act accordingly, so what is faith after all?

Ok, basically what you're asking is why works cannot save - it doesn't seem fair to you. To be very fair to you, it's not uncommon for poeple to gravitate towards a 'works saves' philisophy. Consider that Catholics have had it quite ingrained in their doctrines over the centuries, Jehovah Witness, the Jewish esspecially, Muslims, even Christians who maintain that baptism is required for salvation are gravitating towards a 'works plus' doctrine. It can be very difficult to cope with the concept that someone who does good deeds should be condemned, while someone who may have done much wrong is forgiven.

So then, why should faith be the one thing that will result in God's grace and forgiveness being conferred upon us? I want to answer well, so I'll need some time to think about it. I'll respond when I get some time to give it some careful consideration.

PS: I hope none of you eat "freedom" fries...

Hehe.. I was wondering if that would get brought up. We can leave that for another time.

[Anonymous]

Felgar, you seem to understand exactly my difficulty to cope with that concept, so I have quite high expectations regarding your explanations...and I am really lookinjg forward to them!

[Mastermind]

What other method of salvation would you have preferred?

[LittleShepherd]

You seem to have the impression that the Christian will go about doing the same atrocities that he committed before his conversion, which is false. I know you've seen those people who claim to be Christian, and yet don't act like it at all -- those are false converts, hypocrites, fakes, frauds, imposters...well, you get the point. That means they are pretenders, not actual Christians.

The action that solidifies our faith is called repentence. If you have faith in Christ, you will repent of your sins, which means to turn away from them and turn towards Jesus. If you have faith, you will repent. If you do not repent, you never had faith in the first place. Once that happens, we are saved, and we get a very special helper -- the Holy Spirit, the very Spirit of God Himself, comes to live inside us(our bodies become little temples of God). Spiritually, the Christian is a new creature, with new desires.

The flesh, on the other hand, is not purified by Salvation. Not right away, anyhow -- that comes later. This leads to a battle between our purified spirit, which desires to please God, and our still-sinful flesh, which desires to please itself(often in ungodly ways). This is why Christians occasionally stumble -- but a true Christian will learn from his mistakes, dust himself off, and keep going. And if he can't beat a particular sin on his own, he'll ask other Christians to keep him accountable and pray for him. Thus is the way of Christianity.

One of the biggest stumbling blocks to nonchristians is the presence of hypocrites in the church -- many times I've heard someone say "Those Christians just weren't nice at all and were all judgmental and stuff," and have had to restrain myself from shouting out "Those weren't Christians, man! They were imposters!" Jesus even warned that there would be imposters in the church in one of His parables, but most people assume that if they go to church, they really are a Christian, and therefore they represent Christ. It's just not true -- you'll know a real Christian by his/her works. The works don't save them; they're merely proof of repentence.

[Felgar]

I agree LS, that the works are a product of our repentance and newfound guidance by the Holy Spirit.

Lyouki's question though is posed slightly different than I'm practiced at answering, so I'm still considering it. The crux of the question is, why doesn't God confer His grace upon more than those who believe in Him? I'm working on it still, but it's starting to come together...