What makes a person "Christian"?

[CeT-To]

HAHAH LOL another thing is that how can you have sex when you are a spirit...you have no genitals..you can not procreate..thus makes no sense at all. Unless i am wrong some one point me out

[cslewislover]

If its a choice ill choose the Muslim answer, in paradise with 72 virgins.

I very seriously hope you're not serious. It amazes me so much than any female would willfully follow Islam. The Quran says to beat your wife, and then . . . I don't know, are they all made virgins again and again so guys can enjoy them that way? Are the men in Islam so insecure in their abilities that they have to have inexperienced virgins all of the time?

[Telstra Robs]

I don't think that the 72 virgins thing is in the Koran. I think Osama Bin Laden made that up to get more recruits. Either way, I would not want 72 virgins. Imagine having to teach them all! It would be hard work.

The Eleventh Doctor, you think too much along the lines of Earthly pleasures. I guarantee you that fleeting orgasms pale in comparison to the joy we will experience in Heaven.

[cslewislover]

The claim of virgins and sex in Islam's paradise is from Mohammed, taken from the Quran and the Hadith.

A clean summary, from ReligiousTolerance.org About Islam,
The rewards of paradise : {why isn't this hyperlink coding right?}
Perhaps the greatest difference between the Islamic Paradise and the Christian Heaven is related to sensual and sexual pleasures. As noted above, men will have the companionship of their earthly wife or wives, as well as of many Houris. However, marriage -- and presumably sex and procreation as well -- are not present in the Christian Heaven. Luke 20:28-35 discusses a case where a woman had seven husbands -- she was compelled to marry six of her first husband's brothers in succession, as each brother died. Jesus is quoted as saying that those who attain Heaven "neither marry or are given in marriage." Mark 12:25, Matthew 22:30, and Luke 20:35 also imply a sexless Heaven.


A not as clean summary from albatrus.org 72 virgins and boys:

Mohammed knew that sex would sell very well among the group of his followers who were motivated to fight battles by the promise of sex slaves and booty. By constantly emphasizing to his followers that they would get untouched virgins in Paradise, Mohammed is clearly expressing his "high" opinion of the institution of marriage and his fairness to women. Once the followers go to heaven, they can conveniently ditch their wives for the fresher and more pleasurable sexual encounters with 'Houris' (beautiful virgins). The poor wives who gave up their virginity for the pleasure of their husbands do not get anything. But wait, Allah is all merciful! He gives the wives the rare honour of watching their husbands deflower those 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys.

The specific Hadith in which the number of virgins is specified is Hadith Al-Tirmidhi in the Book of Sunah (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah, chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise. The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir in his Quranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman:

"The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]."

[Telstra Robs]

Lewis, I was looking for a quote from the Koran, not from a website I've never heard of. I get all knowledge of religions from their texts. I am sure you would rather people judge Christianity by the Bible, and not by the KKK. As a Christian, you should extend the same courtesy to others.

[cslewislover]

You can go to the first site I gave, the religious tolerance one. Would there be some problem with that, lol?! They have quotes and references from the Koran. If I hadn't read much on the subject already, I wouldn't have given the second quote and reference. Please give me some respect.

[Telstra Robs]

I visited the website from your previous post, for I could not find the religious tolerance website you mentioned, and because you provided it as a link for your argument, I found it appropriate to use it.

The Koranic verses mentioned indeed told of a reward of Virgins, but no where mentioned 72 virgins or 80,000 servants.

Furthermore, that website holds something which I know is false. The second paragraph tells that Islam glorifies homosexuality and promises prepubescent boys for homosexual Muslims. They quoted verses saying that Muslims would get servant boys and misconstrued them to attempt to validate their argument. However, Islam frowns upon homosexuality.

These quotes from the Koran disprove the website's stance on Islam and Homosexuality.

We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165

Your website has lied once and stated something without proof. I am sorry, but I cannot believe the rest.

[zoegirl]

I consider their views towards punishment and treatment of women to be one of the most egregious aspects of Islam.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 47,00.html

Any religion that promises men the abillity to take advantage of women in heaven is horrible.

[Telstra Robs]

I agree with you Zoe, but I believe we are getting off the track a bit.

Either way, my post was not meant to condone the practice, but merely to discredit the website. It is important to remember that if you mention a religion, provide substantial evidence (e.g. a verse from a religious text). Such courtesy is provided for Christianity by pretty much every member of this site (or so it seems when I look at such posts).

[Canuckster1127]

As best I can see and understand it, those factions of Islam that believe in the 72 virgins for martyrs base that belief in tradition rather than any direct quote from the Quran. Some equate the 72 virgins as the equivilent of western Christianity's cultural picture of people who die becoming angels in the clouds with halos, wings and harps. Most are familiar with it but very few literally believe it. In terms of this belief fueling suicide bombers it's evidence, in my opinion, of manipulation of poor and desparate people who are fatalistic in their world view (which is a legitimate product of Islam) and easily led by militants who will not themselves make this extreme sacrifice.

[zoegirl]

Now to your question. The difficulty in determining what the Koran has to say about virgins and such is establishing what the Koran says, period. Translators vary widely in their rendering of the spare and often opaque text. For example, we find the following passage in a Web-based version of Islam's holy book (www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/index.htm): "Verily, for the Muttaqun [righteous], there will be a success (paradise); gardens and grapeyards; and young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age; and a full cup (of wine)" (An-Naba 78:31-34). Whoa, one thinks--the Kingdom of Heaven meets the Playboy Advisor! However, most other English translations, both on-line and in print, replace "full-breasted maidens" with some tame construction such as "companions." Inquiring further, we find that the Arabic word at issue is WakawaAAiba, which appears nowhere else in the Koran. The French, less prudish in these matters, usually render it as something like des belles aux seins arrondis, "beautiful women with round breasts," so I think it's pretty clear what the Prophet, or at least his stenographers, had in mind.

I wasn't implying anything about martyrs or the suicide bombers, merely the usage of women. Both the Time article (surely a respectable, secular piece) and the above show the place of women.

[Gman]

I very seriously hope you're not serious. It amazes me so much than any female would willfully follow Islam. The Quran says to beat your wife, and then . . .

Very true... If you are a woman, then you are basically treated like dirt.

Surah 4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means: For Allah is Most High, great.

More here..

The value of Women

I don't know, are they all made virgins again and again so guys can enjoy them that way? Are the men in Islam so insecure in their abilities that they have to have inexperienced virgins all of the time?

More info on it here..

# Quran promises men voluptuous virgins but does not specify their exact number
# Hadiths specify the exact number as 72

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/72_Virgins

[cslewislover]

I agree with you Zoe, but I believe we are getting off the track a bit.

Either way, my post was not meant to condone the practice, but merely to discredit the website. It is important to remember that if you mention a religion, provide substantial evidence (e.g. a verse from a religious text). Such courtesy is provided for Christianity by pretty much every member of this site (or so it seems when I look at such posts).

I looked in my two books at home, both written by former Muslims, and instead of rewriting from them I found some sources online that said the same thing. As Gman gave more reference to, the promise of having virgins to be with in paradise is in the Koran, the number of them in the Hadith. I have also heard a number of former Muslims speak, and read quite a few reports from persons visiting Islamic countries. Perhaps you should look into these issues in a more rounded way (I can give more quotes from the Koran and Hadith if necessary, but I'm wondering how the quotes at the second site were somehow fake or something)? Young Christian girls are often abducted and forced to marry Muslim men. Christians are persecuted in so many ways, and often killed in Islamic countries. Females are even killed here and in other western countries for "honor." There are many things going out there that you could read up on, at legitimate Christian news and ministry sites.

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php
http://www.persecution.com/
http://www.compassdirect.org/
http://arabsforisrael.blogspot.com/2009 ... we_09.html
http://ministrytomuslims.net/
http://www.3xterrorists.com/walidbio.php
http://formermuslimsunited.americancomm ... hange.org/

Praise God for our Lord, whom so many Muslims seek today and even find because of His personal intervention.

[Telstra Robs]

I find it extremely unfortunate that many people seem to be not understanding what I am trying to say.

The concept of Muslims believing they get virgins in heaven I understand. The idea of persecution of Christians not only do I understand, but it was never brought up and is completely irrelevant to the conversation. It is the same with treatment of women in Muslim countries. I understand it happens, I understand it is a bad thing, but it was never supposed to be addressed in this topic.

What I was saying was that Zoe stated that Muslims believe that they will get 72 virgins in heaven. I agree that they believe they will receive virgins but the number was completely incorrect and is never once mentioned in the Koran. Mainstream Muslims consider this belief the same way mainstream Christians consider the belief that we will be issued with harps and wings and walk on clouds (Margaret Kleffner Nydell (2006). Understanding Arabs: A Guide for Modern Times. Intercultural Press. pp. 109. ISBN 1931930252.).

Furthermore, looking at the Hadith is like looking at the Apocrypha. Not only do Sunnis and Shiites read different versions of the Hadith, but the respective versions were composed during the 8th and 9th centuries, too far removed from Muhammad's time. Because of these division, they cannot be considered to be final authority within the Muslim religion.

I would appreciate it very much if people would stop addressing me in these posts with problems in Islam they think I think don't exist. You seem to be bringing up many things I have never disagreed with, including some things that have never been uttered in the conversation. We are going too far off topic. Each time someone brings up a new thing against Islam (of which they seem to be accusing me doesn't exist), we go further and further off topic of what The Eleventh Doctor asked. What makes a person Christian? Are we Christians people who ignore others' questions to instead debate about the faults of other religions?

What I'm trying to say is, if we want to discuss Islam as a religion (of which we seem to agree on everything but still find debate?) we should truncate the topic at the point where we were side tracked and have that a new topic where we can debate the religion and leave this topic for The Eleventh Doctor's question.

[The11thDr.]

It really doesn't matter to me what Muslims believe. I don't think I could believe anything religious. To me god has no power, beliefs have power. They have the power to make extreme Muslims blow themselves up and the best of Christians to be pretty nice people(although nothing is stopping a Atheist from being good is there?)

So I can respect your beliefs, I would like to be better informed though, How do you explain the massive difference between God(the BAD guy) in the old testament and Jesus? If Jesus is god, then where is the massive body count?

I'm still reading the bible and I got to a funny bit...Apparently god cant do a thing if the enemy has iron chariots?