Trouble in the Holy Land

[DannyM]

Again there would be no killings, no deaths if groups like Hamas would lay down their weapons and stop these wars.. But they won't. In retaliation, people are going to get hurt and sometimes the innocent are apart of that group.

G, Correctamundo! Hey, there's a flip side to the above: If Israel layed down all her arms, would the violence and killing stop? ... Hmm, I think we know the answer here...No prizes for guessing!!

[Dazed and Confused]

Ah not really... Don't forget that Jerusalem is the place where Abraham tried to sacrifice Isaac. Long before the Canaanites were there..

Love that, I'm going to steal this argument from you and make it my own.

[Dazed and Confused]

Great responses here defending Israel! Maybe someone here can back me up on this: Didn't Israel agree to a Palestinian state while under Yasser Arafat. And didn't Arafat refuse to accept the terms even though Israel met most, if not all of the demands Arafat laid down, mostly due to the fact that the Palestinian Authority is not interested in statehood, but rather in Israel's total destruction? Maybe this is what Biblos was refeering to "It probably was not on the part of the Arab states in general either but it certainly was always on the part of the Palestinian leadership starting with the most morally corrupt one of them all, Yaser Arafat, who torpedoed the Oslo accord the next day after agreeing to it. Why? Because on top of his moral bankruptcy he was a coward at heart."

Quick question before I go. Who is the only free democratic country in the Middle East? ....................ISRAEL!
"Israel is the only country in the Middle East to be classified as "free" and an "electoral democracy" by Freedom House rankings. ...en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_the_Middle_East -"

For some unbiased news concerning Israel check out honest reporting. http://www.honestreporting.com/

[Byblos]

Great responses here defending Israel! Maybe someone here can back me up on this: Didn't Israel agree to a Palestinian state while under Yasser Arafat. And didn't Arafat refuse to accept the terms even though Israel met most, if not all of the demands Arafat laid down, mostly due to the fact that the Palestinian Authority is not interested in statehood, but rather in Israel's total destruction? Maybe this is what Biblos was refeering to "It probably was not on the part of the Arab states in general either but it certainly was always on the part of the Palestinian leadership starting with the most morally corrupt one of them all, Yaser Arafat, who torpedoed the Oslo accord the next day after agreeing to it. Why? Because on top of his moral bankruptcy he was a coward at heart."

That is precisely what I was referring to, DC (except I meant the Camp David accord, not Oslo, which Arafat actually did sign to later default in practice). In the Camp David accord, Arafat actually did accept the terms to later change his mind. He yet again gambled his people's future away on a hollow promise never to materialize.

Quick question before I go. Who is the only free democratic country in the Middle East? ....................ISRAEL!
"Israel is the only country in the Middle East to be classified as "free" and an "electoral democracy" by Freedom House rankings. ...en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_the_Middle_East -"

Err, not quite, but I'd be arguing semantics.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Bravo to Byblos, for setting the facts straight in correcting Telstra Robs' disinformation, and for coming to Israel's defence. This is all the more impressive considering that your homeland has - according to the international media - suffered because of the Jewish state. Bravo Byblos!

For some unbiased news concerning Israel check out honest reporting. http://www.honestreporting.com/

For those interested, daily news from Israel from a Messianic Jewish (AKA «Hebrew Christian») perspective can be had from,

http://www.israeltoday.co.il

FL

[Byblos]

Bravo to Byblos, for setting the facts straight in correcting Telstra Robs' disinformation, and for coming to Israel's defence. This is all the more impressive considering that your homeland has - according to the international media - suffered because of the Jewish state. Bravo Byblos!

My homeland has suffered immeasurably more in the name of Arab sisterhood, particularly from Syria, the PLO (most notably Arafat himself) and their local cronies. I had personally been witness to their acts of kindness. To this day we reap the rewards of such in the name of the so-called resistance (namely Hezballah).

[Gman]

My homeland has suffered immeasurably more in the name of Arab sisterhood, particularly from Syria, the PLO (most notably Arafat himself) and their local cronies. I had personally been witness to their acts of kindness. To this day we reap the rewards of such in the name of the so-called resistance (namely Hezballah).

Byblos.. Would you say more than the Jews? It seems that the Jewish state would strike back only in retaliation...

[Byblos]

My homeland has suffered immeasurably more in the name of Arab sisterhood, particularly from Syria, the PLO (most notably Arafat himself) and their local cronies. I had personally been witness to their acts of kindness. To this day we reap the rewards of such in the name of the so-called resistance (namely Hezballah).

Byblos.. Would you say more than the Jews? It seems that the Jewish state would strike back only in retaliation...

No, of course, not comparatively historically that is. In any case, what I meant was that my homeland has suffered at the hands of Arabs more than it has at the hands of Jews and Israel. I wasn't comparing suffering with the Jews.

[Gman]

My homeland has suffered immeasurably more in the name of Arab sisterhood, particularly from Syria, the PLO (most notably Arafat himself) and their local cronies. I had personally been witness to their acts of kindness. To this day we reap the rewards of such in the name of the so-called resistance (namely Hezballah).

Byblos.. Would you say more than the Jews? It seems that the Jewish state would strike back only in retaliation...

No, of course, not comparatively historically that is. In any case, what I meant was that my homeland has suffered at the hands of Arabs more than it has at the hands of Jews and Israel. I wasn't comparing suffering with the Jews.

Ok got it... Obviously I don't think the Lebanese Christians were ever the target of the IDF. In retaliation of what Hezbollah did, I think that some of the Christians Lebanese got caught in the crossfire perhaps. Correct? Especially around Beirut..

On another note.. Have you ever heard of Brigitte Gabriel? She is a great voice for the Christian Lebanese.

http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/

[Byblos]

My homeland has suffered immeasurably more in the name of Arab sisterhood, particularly from Syria, the PLO (most notably Arafat himself) and their local cronies. I had personally been witness to their acts of kindness. To this day we reap the rewards of such in the name of the so-called resistance (namely Hezballah).

Byblos.. Would you say more than the Jews? It seems that the Jewish state would strike back only in retaliation...

No, of course, not comparatively historically that is. In any case, what I meant was that my homeland has suffered at the hands of Arabs more than it has at the hands of Jews and Israel. I wasn't comparing suffering with the Jews.

Ok got it... Obviously I don't think the Lebanese Christians were ever the target of the IDF. In retaliation of what Hezbollah did, I think that some of the Christians Lebanese got caught in the crossfire perhaps. Correct? Especially around Beirut..

True.

But those are only recent events. I was mainly referring to the so-called civil war that started in 1975. Only there was nothing civil about it as it did not at first involve Lebanese Muslims and Christians (although it eventually degenerated to that). The war started between Lebanese Christians and Palestinian foreigners/refugees who were the dominant military force in the country at the time (headed by none other than Arafat).

another note.. Have you ever heard of Brigitte Gabriel? She is a great voice for the Christian Lebanese.

http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/

I've heard of her but don't know much about what she does so thanks for the link.

[Rakovsky]

Dear Dazed and Confused,

I have alot of concern for the Holy Land's well-being and wholesomeness, because it is special for Christianity- the birthplace of our Christian faith, and the homeland of the Palestinian Christian descendants of the first Christians. The Holy Land should be a place of peace, beauty, and togetherness, as it is a central place of three faith communities, and practically the center of the physical world.

You commented:

We know from scripture that Israel is God's prophetic time piece and the clock appears to be moving faster these days.

To better understand this, I think it's helpful to explain what Israel means in prophecy
For example, is it the earthly political state of Israel, the Jewish people around the world, or the Church as St Paul appears to say?
And if we define Israel as the Jewish people, then should we define the people based on ancestry or their relationship to the religious community?

I am not sure what to make of this:

Currently Israel finds herself more isolated and distant from the U.S. and it seems that it has to play out this way for future events to unfold.

I don't feel particularly good at predicting the future. Naturally, events follow from eachother. But perhaps they are not absolutely determined. I read one commentary about the Old Testament that the prophecies allowed for two possible outcomes, depending on Israel's actions. Should it be good and follow God, God would reward it, and otherwise it would have a difficult time until it started doing good and following God again. A commentary also proposed that if it was good, it would receive a victorious Messiah, but otherwise it would receive the one riding on a donkey. I think this might have been a modern Jewish commentary, and you might not agree with it, but I feel like we can allow for different possible outcomes.
May they be good ones.

It's true that recent events have made Israel more isolated in two ways:
After the Israeli navy launched a troop assault to capture the Turkish boat Mavi Marmara, relations with its ally Turkey got colder. But I doubt this was unavoidable, because the troop assault was still their choice, when I assume they could've used less violent methods.
The second event was that the Egyptians had a nonviolent revolt that removed their authoritarian leader, which makes relations colder, because Egyptians seem upset about the Palestinians' situation.

At the same time, I am doubtful that Israel is particularly distant from the US. Even though we are in a recession, this year the US raised the annual amount it gives them, which included the addition of a military shield called the "Iron Dome". No one knows the annual amount exactly, but it is more than any other country. Then there is the huge amount of military cooperation. Plus, you can count the number of times everyone in Congress clapped for the Israeli president, and the positions and claims both parties' candidates make, like Herman Cain recently saying something like there is no Palestinian people.
The main "distance" from the US seems to be that Obama tells Netanyahu to stop building settlements past the Green Line. But Obama doesn't seem to do much to stop it, except to warn that it's hurting chances for peace. So there doesn't seem to be much distance between the two governments to me.
I think you could still have close relations, and still place conditions on israeli aid, like the US government places conditions on US highway funding. I think Bush wanted to limit funding based on the settlements issue. But Obama is aren't even doing that. So I would say the relationship appears extremely close.

You finished with a good wish:

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

I think one of the challenges for the peoples of the Holy Land must be trying to look at eachother in friendly ways in the spirit of reconciliation, when there is so much conflict.

Online I saw a prayer for Jerusalem's peace which seems poetic to me, and I would like to share with you.
It is by the Lutheran Bishop in Jerusalem, Munib A. Younan, from 2001:

Jesus, our Savior, our eyes look to you, our only help in these troubled times:
Lord, hear our prayer.

We pray, that you open the eyes of the world and of Israelis and Palestinians for justice and reconciliation. Help us all to see that the security and freedom of the one people is depending on the security and freedom of the other.
Lord, hear our prayer.

We pray for the politicians, that they may realize that the security and peace we all long for will not come by the use of arms and force, but by having justice done so that the two peoples can reconcile and together work out an equitable coexistence for the future.
Lord, hear our prayer.

Lord Jesus, you have called us to be your followers. Give us your love for our fellow human beings. Free us, and our children, from hatred, bitterness, and the denying of the rights of others; and fill us with love, truth, justice, so that we can recognize and respect the dignity and the rights of one another.
Lord, hear our prayer.

Lord Jesus, you have shown us that forgiveness is not forgetting ones rights but asserting them. We know that forgiving is to see Christ in our enemies, and to love them as our neighbors. Help us Palestinians to see you in the Israelis, and help the Israelis to see you in us. Lead us all to affirm and respect that our humanity is a gift from you, as we are all created in your image, and give us courage to mutually recognize each other’s human, religious, civil and political rights.
Lord, hear our prayer.

Holy Spirit , giver of life and new beginnings, help us to faithfully respond to God’s call to be ministers of reconciliation.
Come, Holy Spirit, renew us all.

Help us to find ways of encouraging people to open their hearts and confess their part in the past injustices and find ways to build a just and secure future for our children. Give us wisdom and courage in this difficult task. When the pressures of the situation make us despair, come with your Holy Spirit and renew our strength and hope.
Come, Holy Spirit, renew us all.

Sustain with your power those, who in the midst of all difficulties quietly are building the culture of reconciliation, justice and peace. They may not be many right now, but we remember that the work for God’s kingdom among us, started with only a handful faithful and committed people.
Come, Holy Spirit, renew us all.

Come, Healing Spirit , and change us and open ways for us to change others. Remove all injustice and fill our land with just peace. Remove all hatred and fill us all with true love.
Come, Holy Spirit, renew us all.

Remove all insecurity and bring in real security. Remove all occupation and bring in freedom for all.
Come, Holy Spirit, renew us all.

Merciful God, accept our prayer and yearning. You are the only strength we have. No one can take the power of prayer away from us. In the name of Jesus - our Liberator and Redeemer - we pray.
Amen

[Gman]

At the same time, I am doubtful that Israel is particularly distant from the US. Even though we are in a recession, this year the US raised the annual amount it gives them, which included the addition of a military shield called the "Iron Dome". No one knows the annual amount exactly, but it is more than any other country. Then there is the huge amount of military cooperation. Plus, you can count the number of times everyone in Congress clapped for the Israeli president, and the positions and claims both parties' candidates make, like Herman Cain recently saying something like there is no Palestinian people.

I'm so glad for the protective "Iron Dome" AND the fact that congress clapped for the Israeli president. Very happy about that. Why? Becuase we support democracy. We also support democracy in the middle east where all people will get the respect they need. All Americas should be proud of our heritage. Equal rights for everyone.. And women too.. And peace..

The main "distance" from the US seems to be that Obama tells Netanyahu to stop building settlements past the Green Line. But Obama doesn't seem to do much to stop it, except to warn that it's hurting chances for peace. So there doesn't seem to be much distance between the two governments to me.

"The Green Line is not an international or permanent border. Judge Stephen M. Schwebel, at the time a deputy legal advisor to the U.S. Department of State, Legal Adviser Office (1961–1981), wrote in the American Journal of International Law (1970) that "...modifications of the 1949 armistice lines among those States within former Palestinian territory are lawful (if not necessarily desirable), whether those modifications are...'insubstantial alterations required for mutual security' or more substantial alterations - such as recognition of Israeli sovereignty over the whole of Jerusalem." In a footnote, he wrote: "It should be added that the armistice agreements of 1949 expressly preserved the territorial claims of all parties and did not purport to establish definitive boundaries between them."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_%28Israel%29

I think you could still have close relations, and still place conditions on israeli aid, like the US government places conditions on US highway funding. I think Bush wanted to limit funding based on the settlements issue. But Obama is aren't even doing that. So I would say the relationship appears extremely close.

Thank God.. And thank God for Obama's view on this.

[Tiffany Dawn]

I just heard the other day that I-r-a-n has 150,000 missiles aimed at Is-rael-I had been studying this so much I had to take a break-
I'm just thinking that Harpazo may happen quicker than some Christians may think-I've always been taught to watch the Fig Tree- So, I'm watching it even more these days.

This website is loaded down with a lot of interesting info-

See: http://www.targetofopportunity.com/pale ... _truth.htm

I just received this e-mail:

To read the article on Iran’s war footing See Below-
Dated 06/12/11------See: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Contr ... tem=150437

[Tiffany Dawn]

The latest-

http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Opinion/A ... ?id=248693

http://www.worldnewstribune.com/2011/12 ... rn-border/

[Tiffany Dawn]

The scary part of this is it's been going on since around 2007 and now were finally getting a hint of what's really been going on-
And now it's pretty concerning-

Trouble in the Holy Land may be an understatement

We really do need to Pray everyday about this-cuz we got a problem here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLT8UjF7 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=EaH ... ature=fvwp

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=247194