Homosexuality and destroying faith

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.

If somebody is homosexual, and you don't seem able to convince them that it's wrong, what do you do?

Push the issue and if necessary, destroy their faith to avoid tarnishing Christianity's image.
0
No votes
Point out that they're sinners while wondering about the sharp plank-like pain in your eye.
5
20%
Try to help them out yourself, preferably without referring them to a site which makes them feel threatened (Like NARTH, K)
14
56%
Get into Kmart mode and start sneering.
1
4%
Give a "You're going to hell" speech and walk away.
5
20%
 
Total votes: 25

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ramunematt
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by ramunematt »

Byblos wrote:And perhaps you would care to explain the cases of identical twins where one is homosexual and the other heterosexual.
For the same reason that one identical twin can be left handed and the other right handed. Genes give a predisposition for certain characteristics and traits which, depending on the environment, can make that trait or characteristic active. In other words, there are genes which affect you in an indirect way. Sometimes the influence is strong and sometimes it is not. For perspective: is a girl genetically compelled to become pregnant at 15? Her genes might give her physical characteristics that make her attractive to boys - but whether she gets pregnant will depend greatly on whether her community is Amish or urban, conservative or liberal, whether they use contraceptives, and whether the parents are away for the evening. Her genes however, do greatly influence whether this happens.

In cases of twins where one is homosexual and the other is heterosexual, both twins have the same genetic influence. Now while their genes are 100% the same, the environment they are raised in is not. One twin may have experiences unique only to said twin which will cause it to be homosexual while the other is heterosexual because it did not have the experience that was unique to the other twin. In this, homosexuality proves to be no different from such unrelated behaviors as violence, being extroverted, or getting divorced which are all widely known to psychologists to study the indirect effect of genes. Remember that identical twin that was left handed while the other was right handed that I mentioned earlier? Some people have genes that make them more likely to be left-handed, but don't end up lefties. It's the exact same concept with sexuality.

If you are still skeptical about whether genes can influence sexuality, then you might want to do some research on childhood gender nonconformity. Also keep in mind that if sexuality is purely environmental, then identical twins would both be gay as often as fraternal twins, which isn't the case.

One more thing... since the brain continues to develop after we're born, the environment can affect how our brain develops even after we are born. We have done brain scans of homosexuals and have seen that their brain activity is different than a heterosexual, which makes sense since the brain is where sexuality takes place. This means that whatever sexuality you have once your brain stops developing, you stay with for the rest of your life. There is no good data that suggests you can change sexuality, and there has never been a study or article which can support the converting of sexuality which would make it into a scientific journal. I hope this gives some insight to whoever created this thread on why they can't seem to get a homosexual to turn straight.

http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=155
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by Byblos »

ramunematt wrote:... Genes give a predisposition for certain characteristics and traits which, depending on the environment, can make that trait or characteristic active...
You got that right. In other words we all have a predisposition for anything (more or less). It is both environmental factors and personal decisions that make up the difference.
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by zoegirl »

One of my in-laws has a predisposition to alcoholism, that doesn't mean that he can get drunk.
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by ramunematt »

Byblos wrote:
ramunematt wrote:... Genes give a predisposition for certain characteristics and traits which, depending on the environment, can make that trait or characteristic active...
You got that right. In other words we all have a predisposition for anything (more or less). It is both environmental factors and personal decisions that make up the difference.
Not personal decision. You wouldn't think a left handed person made the personal decision to be left handed did you? The same mechanism which I explained for why identical twins can be left handed when the other is right handed also accounts for sexuality.

Nature (genes) vs Nurture (environment)
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by ramunematt »

zoegirl wrote:One of my in-laws has a predisposition to alcoholism, that doesn't mean that he can get drunk.
No, but it means he is more likely to be an alcoholic than people who don't have that predisposition.
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by Gman »

ramunematt wrote:But my main point is: keep thy religion to thyself. If you think homosexuality is wrong, and you don't want to do it, then don't do it. Nobody is trying to force you to be homosexual, but here we have all these Christians trying to force homosexuals to be heterosexual. There is no reason you should try interfering with other people's lifestyles. What people do in their bedrooms and their relationships,is none of your business. You know what the difference is between the 1500 homosexual species and us? They don't discriminate against other animal's lifestyle like most of the people are doing on this forum.
Yes please keep your religion to yourself..
Animals Do It, So It's Natural, Right?

The reasoning behind the animal homosexuality theory can be summed up as follows:

- Homosexual behavior is observable in animals.
- Animal behavior is determined by their instincts.
- Nature requires animals to follow their instincts.
- Therefore, homosexuality is in accordance with animal nature.
- Since man is also animal, homosexuality must also be in accordance with human nature.

This line of reasoning is unsustainable. If seemingly "homosexual" acts among animals are in accordance with animal nature, then parental killing of offspring and intra-species devouring are also in accordance with animal nature. Bringing man into the equation complicates things further. Are we to conclude that filicide and cannibalism are according to human nature?

In opposition to this line of reasoning, this article sustains that:

1. There is no "homosexual instinct" in animals,
2. It is poor science to "read" human motivations and sentiments into animal behavior, and
3. Irrational animal behavior is not a yardstick to determine what is morally acceptable behavior for rational man.

There Is No "Homosexual Instinct" In Animals

Anyone engaged in the most elementary animal observation is forced to conclude that animal "homosexuality," "filicide" and "cannibalism" are exceptions to normal animal behavior. Consequently, they cannot be called animal instincts. These observable exceptions to normal animal behavior result from factors beyond their instincts.

-- Clashing Stimuli and Confused Animal Instincts

To explain this abnormal behavior, the first observation must be the fact that animal instincts are not bound by the absolute determinism of the physical laws governing the mineral world. In varying degrees, all living beings can adapt to circumstances. They respond to internal or external stimuli.

Second, animal cognition is purely sensorial, limited to sound, odor, touch, taste and image. Thus, animals lack the precision and clarity of human intellectual perception. Therefore, animals frequently confuse one sensation with another or one object with another.

Third, an animal's instincts direct it towards its end and are in accordance with its nature. However, the spontaneous thrust of the instinctive impulse can suffer modifications as it runs its course. Other sensorial images, perceptions or memories can act as new stimuli affecting the animal's behavior. Moreover, the conflict between two or more instincts can sometimes modify the original impulse.

In man, when two instinctive reactions clash, the intellect determines the best course to follow, and the will then holds one instinct in check while encouraging the other. With animals that lack intellect and will, when two instinctive impulses clash, the one most favored by circumstances prevails.[4]

At times, these internal or external stimuli affecting an animal's instinctive impulses result in cases of animal "filicide," "cannibalism" and "homosexuality."

-- Animal "Filicide" and "Cannibalism"

Sarah Hartwell explains that tomcats kill their kittens after receiving "mixed signals" from their instincts:

Most female cats can switch between "play mode" and "hunt mode" in order not to harm their offspring. In tomcats this switching off of "hunt mode" may be incomplete and, when they become highly aroused through play, the "hunting" instinct comes into force and they may kill the kittens. The hunting instinct is so strong, and so hard to switch off when prey is present, that dismemberment and even eating of the kitten may ensue.... Compare the size, sound and activity of kittens with the size, sound and activity of prey. They are both small, have high-pitched voices and move with fast, erratic movements. All of these trigger hunting behavior. In the tomcat, maternal behavior cannot always override hunting behavior and he treats the kittens in exactly the same way he would treat small prey. His instincts are confused.[5]

Regarding animal cannibalism, the Iran Nature and Wildlife Magazine notes:

Cannibalism is most common among lower vertebrates and invertebrates, often due to a predatory animal mistaking one of its own kind for prey. But it also occurs among birds and mammals, especially when food is scarce.[6]

-- Animals Lack the Means to Express Their Affective States

To stimuli and clashing instincts, however, we must add another factor: In expressing its affective states, an animal is radically inferior to man.

Since animals lack reason, their means of expressing their affective states (fear, pleasure, pain, desire, etc.) are limited. Animals lack the rich resources at man's disposal to express his sentiments. Man can adapt his way of talking, writing, gazing, gesturing in untold ways. Animals cannot. Consequently, animals often express their affective states ambiguously. They "borrow," so to speak, the manifestations of the instinct of reproduction to manifest the instincts of dominance, aggressiveness, fear, gregariousness and so on.

-- Explaining Seemingly "Homosexual" Animal Behavior

Bonobos are a typical example of this "borrowing." These primates from the chimpanzee family engage in seemingly sexual behavior to express acceptance and other affective states. Thus, Frans B. M. de Waal, who spent hundreds of hours observing and filming bonobos, says:

There are two reasons to believe sexual activity is the bonobo's answer to avoiding conflict.

First, anything, not just food, that arouses the interest of more than one bonobo at a time tends to result in sexual contact. If two bonobos approach a cardboard box thrown into their enclosure, they will briefly mount each other before playing with the box. Such situations lead to squabbles in most other species. But bonobos are quite tolerant, perhaps because they use sex to divert attention and to diffuse tension.

Second, bonobo sex often occurs in aggressive contexts totally unrelated to food. A jealous male might chase another away from a female, after which the two males reunite and engage in scrotal rubbing. Or after a female hits a juvenile, the latter's mother may lunge at the aggressor, an action that is immediately followed by genital rubbing between the two adults.[7]

Like bonobos, other animals will mount another of the same sex and engage in seemingly "homosexual" behavior, although their motivation may differ. Dogs, for example, usually do so to express dominance. Cesar Ades, ethologist and professor of psychology at the University of S”¹o Paulo, Brazil, explains, "When two males mate, what is present is a demonstration of power, not sex."[8]

Jacque Lynn Schultz, ASPCA Animal Sciences Director of Special Projects, explains further:

Usually, an un-neutered male dog will mount another male dog as a display of social dominance--in other words, as a way of letting the other dog know who's boss. While not as frequent, a female dog may mount for the same reason.[9]

Dogs will also mount one another because of the vehemence of their purely chemical reaction to the smell of an estrus female:

Not surprisingly, the smell of a female dog in heat can instigate a frenzy of mounting behaviors. Even other females who are not in heat will mount those who are. Males will mount males who have just been with estrus females if they still bear their scent.... And males who catch wind of the estrus odor may mount the first thing (or unlucky person) they come into contact with.[10]

Other animals engage in seemingly "homosexual" behavior because they fail to identify the other sex properly. The lower the species in the animal kingdom, the more tenuous and difficult to detect are the differences between sexes, leading to more frequent confusion.

-- "Homosexual" Animals Do Not Exist

In 1996, homosexual scientist Simon LeVay admitted that the evidence pointed to isolated acts, not to homosexuality:

Although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity.[11]

Despite the "homosexual" appearances of some animal behavior, this behavior does not stem from a "homosexual" instinct that is part of animal nature. Dr. Antonio Pardo, Professor of Bioethics at the University of Navarre, Spain, explains:

Properly speaking, homosexuality does not exist among animals.... For reasons of survival, the reproductive instinct among animals is always directed towards an individual of the opposite sex. Therefore, an animal can never be homosexual as such. Nevertheless, the interaction of other instincts (particularly dominance) can result in behavior that appears to be homosexual. Such behavior cannot be equated with an animal homosexuality. All it means is that animal sexual behavior encompasses aspects beyond that of reproduction.[12]

It Is Unscientific To "Read" Human Motivation
And Sentiment Into Animal Behavior

Like many animal rights activists, homosexual activists often "read" human motivation and sentiment into animal behavior. While this anthropopathic approach enjoys full citizenship in the realms of art, literature, and mythology it makes for poor science. Dr. Charles Socarides of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) observes:

The term homosexuality should be limited to the human species, for in animals the investigator can ascertain only motor behavior. As soon as he interprets the animal's motivation he is applying human psychodynamics--a risky, if not foolhardy scientific approach.[13]

Ethologist Cesar Ades explains the difference between human and animal sexual relations:

Human beings have sex one way, while animals have it another. Human sex is a question of preference where one chooses the most attractive person to have pleasure. This is not true with animals. For them, it is a question of mating and reproduction. There is no physical or psychological pleasure....The smell is decisive: when a female is in heat, she emits a scent, known as pheromone. This scent attracts the attention of the male, and makes him want to mate. This is sexual intercourse between animals. It is the law of nature.[14]

Even biologist Bruce Bagemihl, whose book Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity was cited by the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association in their amici curiae brief in Lawrence v. Texas and is touted as proof that homosexuality is natural among animals, is careful to include a caveat:

Any account of homosexuality and transgender animals is also necessarily an account of human interpretations of these phenomena....We are in the dark about the internal experience of the animal participants: as a result, the biases and limitations of the human observer--in both the gathering and interpretation of data--come to the forefront in this situation.....With people we can often speak directly to individuals (or read written accounts)....With animals in contrast, we can often directly observe their sexual (and allied) behaviors, but can only infer or interpret their meanings and motivations."[15]

Dr. Bagemihl's interpretation, however, throughout his 750-page book unabashedly favors the animal homosexuality theory. Its pages are filled with descriptions of animal acts that would have a homosexual connotation in human beings. Dr. Bagemihl does not prove, however, that these acts have the same meaning for animals. He simply gives them a homosexual interpretation. Not surprisingly, his book was published by Stonewall Inn Editions, "an imprint of St. Martin's Press devoted to gay and lesbian interest books."

Irrational Animal Behavior Is No Blueprint For Rational Man

Some researchers studying animal "homosexual" behavior extrapolate from the realm of science into that of philosophy and morality. These scholars reason from the premise that if animals do it, it is according to their nature and thus is good for them. If it is natural and good for animals, they continue, it is also natural and morally good for man. However, the definition of man's nature belongs not to the realm of zoology or biology, but philosophy, and the determination of what is morally good for man pertains to ethics.

Dr. Marlene Zuk, professor of biology at the University of California at Riverside, for example, states:

Sexuality is a lot broader term than people want to think. You have this idea that the animal kingdom is strict, old-fashioned Roman Catholic, that they have sex to procreate. ... Sexual expression means more than making babies. Why are we surprised? People are animals.[16]

Simon LeVay entertains the hope that the understanding of animal "homosexuality" will help change societal mores and religious beliefs about homosexuality. He states:

It seems possible that the study of sexual behavior in animals, especially in non-human primates, will contribute to the liberalization of religious attitudes toward homosexual activity and other forms of nonprocreative sex. Specifically, these studies challenge one particular sense of the dogma that homosexual behavior is "against nature": the notion that it is unique to those creatures who, by tasting the fruit of the tree of knowledge, have alone become morally culpable.[17]

Other researchers feel compelled to point out the impropriety of transposing animal behavior to man. Although very favorable to the homosexual interpretation of animal behavior, Paul L. Vasey, of the University of Lethbridge in Canada, nevertheless cautions:

For some people, what animals do is a yardstick of what is and isn't natural. They make a leap from saying if it's natural, it's morally and ethically desirable. Infanticide is widespread in the animal kingdom. To jump from that to say it is desirable makes no sense. We shouldn't be using animals to craft moral and social policies for the kinds of human societies we want to live in. Animals don't take care of the elderly. I don't particularly think that should be a platform for closing down nursing homes.[18]

The animal kingdom is no place for man to seek a blueprint for human morality. That blueprint, as bioethicist Bruto Maria Bruti notes, must be sought in man himself:

It is a frequent error for people to contrast human and animal behaviors, as if the two were homogenous. .... The laws ruling human behavior are of a different nature and they should be sought where God inscribed them, namely, in human nature.[19]

The fact that man has a body and sensitive life in common with animals does not mean he is strictly an animal. Nor does it mean that he is a half-animal. Man's rationality pervades the wholeness of his nature so that his sensations, instincts and impulses are not purely animal but have that seal of rationality which characterizes them as human.

Thus, man is characterized not by what he has in common with animals, but by what differentiates him from them. This differentiation is fundamental, not accidental. Man is a rational animal. Man's rationality is what makes human nature unique and fundamentally distinct from animal nature.[20]

To consider man strictly as an animal is to deny his rationality and, therefore, his free will. Likewise, to consider animals as if they were human is to attribute to them a non-existent rationality.

From Science To Mythology

Dr. Bagemihl's Biological Exuberance research displays his fundamental dissatisfaction with science and enthusiasm for aboriginal mythology:

Western science has a lot to learn from aboriginal cultures about systems of gender and sexuality...[21]

To Western science, homosexuality (both animal and human) is an anomaly, an unexpected behavior that above all requires some sort of "explanation" or "cause" or "rationale." In contrast, to many indigenous cultures around the world, homosexuality and transgender are a routine and expected occurrence in both the human and animal worlds...[22]

Most Native American tribes formally recognize--and honor--human homosexuality and transgender in the role of the 'two-spirit' person (sometimes formerly known as berdache). The 'two-spirit' is a sacred man or woman who mixes gender categories by wearing clothes of opposite or both sexes .... And often engaging in same -sex relations. ... In many Native American cultures, certain animals are also symbolically associated with two-spiritedness, often in the form of creation myths and origin legends relating to the first or "supernatural" two-spirit(s)....A Zuni creation story relates how the first two spirits--creatures that were neither male nor female, yet both at the same time--were the twelve offspring of a mythical brother-sister pair. Some of these creatures were human, but one was a bat and another an old buck Deer.[23]

Dr. Bagemihl applies this androgynous myth, so widespread in today's homosexual movement, to the animal kingdom with the help of Indian and aboriginal mythology. He invites the West to embrace "a new paradigm:"[24]

Ultimately, the synthesis of scientific views represented by Biological Exuberance brings us full circle--back to the way of looking at the world that is in accordance with some of the most ancient indigenous conceptions of animal (and human) sexual and gender variability. This perspective dissolves binary oppositions....Biological Exuberance is...a worldview that is at once primordial and futuristic, in which gender is kaleidoscopic, sexualities are multiple, and the categories of male and female are fluid and transmutable.[25]

Conclusion

In summary, the homosexual movement's attempt to establish that homosexuality is in accordance with human nature, by proving its animal homosexuality theory, is based more on mythological beliefs and erroneous philosophical tenets than on science.

Source: http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

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Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Gman
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by Gman »

ramunematt wrote:There is no reason you should try interfering with other people's lifestyles. What people do in their bedrooms and their relationships,is none of your business..
I can't rightfully support a lifestyle that promotes death and disease to other people... When people start dying from it, we WILL interfere...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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ramunematt
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by ramunematt »

Gman wrote:
ramunematt wrote:But my main point is: keep thy religion to thyself. If you think homosexuality is wrong, and you don't want to do it, then don't do it. Nobody is trying to force you to be homosexual, but here we have all these Christians trying to force homosexuals to be heterosexual. There is no reason you should try interfering with other people's lifestyles. What people do in their bedrooms and their relationships,is none of your business. You know what the difference is between the 1500 homosexual species and us? They don't discriminate against other animal's lifestyle like most of the people are doing on this forum.
Yes please keep your religion to yourself..
How can I keep something that I do not have?
Animals Do It, So It's Natural, Right?

The reasoning behind the animal homosexuality theory can be summed up as follows:

- Homosexual behavior is observable in animals.
- Animal behavior is determined by their instincts.
- Nature requires animals to follow their instincts.
- Therefore, homosexuality is in accordance with animal nature.
- Since man is also animal, homosexuality must also be in accordance with human nature.

This line of reasoning is unsustainable. If seemingly "homosexual" acts among animals are in accordance with animal nature, then parental killing of offspring and intra-species devouring are also in accordance with animal nature. Bringing man into the equation complicates things further. Are we to conclude that filicide and cannibalism are according to human nature?

In opposition to this line of reasoning, this article sustains that:

1. There is no "homosexual instinct" in animals,
2. It is poor science to "read" human motivations and sentiments into animal behavior, and
3. Irrational animal behavior is not a yardstick to determine what is morally acceptable behavior for rational man.

There Is No "Homosexual Instinct" In Animals

Anyone engaged in the most elementary animal observation is forced to conclude that animal "homosexuality," "filicide" and "cannibalism" are exceptions to normal animal behavior. Consequently, they cannot be called animal instincts. These observable exceptions to normal animal behavior result from factors beyond their instincts.

-- Clashing Stimuli and Confused Animal Instincts

To explain this abnormal behavior, the first observation must be the fact that animal instincts are not bound by the absolute determinism of the physical laws governing the mineral world. In varying degrees, all living beings can adapt to circumstances. They respond to internal or external stimuli.

Second, animal cognition is purely sensorial, limited to sound, odor, touch, taste and image. Thus, animals lack the precision and clarity of human intellectual perception. Therefore, animals frequently confuse one sensation with another or one object with another.

Third, an animal's instincts direct it towards its end and are in accordance with its nature. However, the spontaneous thrust of the instinctive impulse can suffer modifications as it runs its course. Other sensorial images, perceptions or memories can act as new stimuli affecting the animal's behavior. Moreover, the conflict between two or more instincts can sometimes modify the original impulse.

In man, when two instinctive reactions clash, the intellect determines the best course to follow, and the will then holds one instinct in check while encouraging the other. With animals that lack intellect and will, when two instinctive impulses clash, the one most favored by circumstances prevails.[4]

At times, these internal or external stimuli affecting an animal's instinctive impulses result in cases of animal "filicide," "cannibalism" and "homosexuality."

-- Animal "Filicide" and "Cannibalism"

Sarah Hartwell explains that tomcats kill their kittens after receiving "mixed signals" from their instincts:

Most female cats can switch between "play mode" and "hunt mode" in order not to harm their offspring. In tomcats this switching off of "hunt mode" may be incomplete and, when they become highly aroused through play, the "hunting" instinct comes into force and they may kill the kittens. The hunting instinct is so strong, and so hard to switch off when prey is present, that dismemberment and even eating of the kitten may ensue.... Compare the size, sound and activity of kittens with the size, sound and activity of prey. They are both small, have high-pitched voices and move with fast, erratic movements. All of these trigger hunting behavior. In the tomcat, maternal behavior cannot always override hunting behavior and he treats the kittens in exactly the same way he would treat small prey. His instincts are confused.[5]

Regarding animal cannibalism, the Iran Nature and Wildlife Magazine notes:

Cannibalism is most common among lower vertebrates and invertebrates, often due to a predatory animal mistaking one of its own kind for prey. But it also occurs among birds and mammals, especially when food is scarce.[6]

-- Animals Lack the Means to Express Their Affective States

To stimuli and clashing instincts, however, we must add another factor: In expressing its affective states, an animal is radically inferior to man.

Since animals lack reason, their means of expressing their affective states (fear, pleasure, pain, desire, etc.) are limited. Animals lack the rich resources at man's disposal to express his sentiments. Man can adapt his way of talking, writing, gazing, gesturing in untold ways. Animals cannot. Consequently, animals often express their affective states ambiguously. They "borrow," so to speak, the manifestations of the instinct of reproduction to manifest the instincts of dominance, aggressiveness, fear, gregariousness and so on.

-- Explaining Seemingly "Homosexual" Animal Behavior

Bonobos are a typical example of this "borrowing." These primates from the chimpanzee family engage in seemingly sexual behavior to express acceptance and other affective states. Thus, Frans B. M. de Waal, who spent hundreds of hours observing and filming bonobos, says:

There are two reasons to believe sexual activity is the bonobo's answer to avoiding conflict.

First, anything, not just food, that arouses the interest of more than one bonobo at a time tends to result in sexual contact. If two bonobos approach a cardboard box thrown into their enclosure, they will briefly mount each other before playing with the box. Such situations lead to squabbles in most other species. But bonobos are quite tolerant, perhaps because they use sex to divert attention and to diffuse tension.

Second, bonobo sex often occurs in aggressive contexts totally unrelated to food. A jealous male might chase another away from a female, after which the two males reunite and engage in scrotal rubbing. Or after a female hits a juvenile, the latter's mother may lunge at the aggressor, an action that is immediately followed by genital rubbing between the two adults.[7]

Like bonobos, other animals will mount another of the same sex and engage in seemingly "homosexual" behavior, although their motivation may differ. Dogs, for example, usually do so to express dominance. Cesar Ades, ethologist and professor of psychology at the University of S”¹o Paulo, Brazil, explains, "When two males mate, what is present is a demonstration of power, not sex."[8]

Jacque Lynn Schultz, ASPCA Animal Sciences Director of Special Projects, explains further:

Usually, an un-neutered male dog will mount another male dog as a display of social dominance--in other words, as a way of letting the other dog know who's boss. While not as frequent, a female dog may mount for the same reason.[9]

Dogs will also mount one another because of the vehemence of their purely chemical reaction to the smell of an estrus female:

Not surprisingly, the smell of a female dog in heat can instigate a frenzy of mounting behaviors. Even other females who are not in heat will mount those who are. Males will mount males who have just been with estrus females if they still bear their scent.... And males who catch wind of the estrus odor may mount the first thing (or unlucky person) they come into contact with.[10]

Other animals engage in seemingly "homosexual" behavior because they fail to identify the other sex properly. The lower the species in the animal kingdom, the more tenuous and difficult to detect are the differences between sexes, leading to more frequent confusion.

-- "Homosexual" Animals Do Not Exist

In 1996, homosexual scientist Simon LeVay admitted that the evidence pointed to isolated acts, not to homosexuality:

Although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity.[11]

Despite the "homosexual" appearances of some animal behavior, this behavior does not stem from a "homosexual" instinct that is part of animal nature. Dr. Antonio Pardo, Professor of Bioethics at the University of Navarre, Spain, explains:

Properly speaking, homosexuality does not exist among animals.... For reasons of survival, the reproductive instinct among animals is always directed towards an individual of the opposite sex. Therefore, an animal can never be homosexual as such. Nevertheless, the interaction of other instincts (particularly dominance) can result in behavior that appears to be homosexual. Such behavior cannot be equated with an animal homosexuality. All it means is that animal sexual behavior encompasses aspects beyond that of reproduction.[12]

It Is Unscientific To "Read" Human Motivation
And Sentiment Into Animal Behavior

Like many animal rights activists, homosexual activists often "read" human motivation and sentiment into animal behavior. While this anthropopathic approach enjoys full citizenship in the realms of art, literature, and mythology it makes for poor science. Dr. Charles Socarides of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) observes:

The term homosexuality should be limited to the human species, for in animals the investigator can ascertain only motor behavior. As soon as he interprets the animal's motivation he is applying human psychodynamics--a risky, if not foolhardy scientific approach.[13]

Ethologist Cesar Ades explains the difference between human and animal sexual relations:

Human beings have sex one way, while animals have it another. Human sex is a question of preference where one chooses the most attractive person to have pleasure. This is not true with animals. For them, it is a question of mating and reproduction. There is no physical or psychological pleasure....The smell is decisive: when a female is in heat, she emits a scent, known as pheromone. This scent attracts the attention of the male, and makes him want to mate. This is sexual intercourse between animals. It is the law of nature.[14]

Even biologist Bruce Bagemihl, whose book Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity was cited by the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association in their amici curiae brief in Lawrence v. Texas and is touted as proof that homosexuality is natural among animals, is careful to include a caveat:

Any account of homosexuality and transgender animals is also necessarily an account of human interpretations of these phenomena....We are in the dark about the internal experience of the animal participants: as a result, the biases and limitations of the human observer--in both the gathering and interpretation of data--come to the forefront in this situation.....With people we can often speak directly to individuals (or read written accounts)....With animals in contrast, we can often directly observe their sexual (and allied) behaviors, but can only infer or interpret their meanings and motivations."[15]

Dr. Bagemihl's interpretation, however, throughout his 750-page book unabashedly favors the animal homosexuality theory. Its pages are filled with descriptions of animal acts that would have a homosexual connotation in human beings. Dr. Bagemihl does not prove, however, that these acts have the same meaning for animals. He simply gives them a homosexual interpretation. Not surprisingly, his book was published by Stonewall Inn Editions, "an imprint of St. Martin's Press devoted to gay and lesbian interest books."

Irrational Animal Behavior Is No Blueprint For Rational Man

Some researchers studying animal "homosexual" behavior extrapolate from the realm of science into that of philosophy and morality. These scholars reason from the premise that if animals do it, it is according to their nature and thus is good for them. If it is natural and good for animals, they continue, it is also natural and morally good for man. However, the definition of man's nature belongs not to the realm of zoology or biology, but philosophy, and the determination of what is morally good for man pertains to ethics.

Dr. Marlene Zuk, professor of biology at the University of California at Riverside, for example, states:

Sexuality is a lot broader term than people want to think. You have this idea that the animal kingdom is strict, old-fashioned Roman Catholic, that they have sex to procreate. ... Sexual expression means more than making babies. Why are we surprised? People are animals.[16]

Simon LeVay entertains the hope that the understanding of animal "homosexuality" will help change societal mores and religious beliefs about homosexuality. He states:

It seems possible that the study of sexual behavior in animals, especially in non-human primates, will contribute to the liberalization of religious attitudes toward homosexual activity and other forms of nonprocreative sex. Specifically, these studies challenge one particular sense of the dogma that homosexual behavior is "against nature": the notion that it is unique to those creatures who, by tasting the fruit of the tree of knowledge, have alone become morally culpable.[17]

Other researchers feel compelled to point out the impropriety of transposing animal behavior to man. Although very favorable to the homosexual interpretation of animal behavior, Paul L. Vasey, of the University of Lethbridge in Canada, nevertheless cautions:

For some people, what animals do is a yardstick of what is and isn't natural. They make a leap from saying if it's natural, it's morally and ethically desirable. Infanticide is widespread in the animal kingdom. To jump from that to say it is desirable makes no sense. We shouldn't be using animals to craft moral and social policies for the kinds of human societies we want to live in. Animals don't take care of the elderly. I don't particularly think that should be a platform for closing down nursing homes.[18]

The animal kingdom is no place for man to seek a blueprint for human morality. That blueprint, as bioethicist Bruto Maria Bruti notes, must be sought in man himself:

It is a frequent error for people to contrast human and animal behaviors, as if the two were homogenous. .... The laws ruling human behavior are of a different nature and they should be sought where God inscribed them, namely, in human nature.[19]

The fact that man has a body and sensitive life in common with animals does not mean he is strictly an animal. Nor does it mean that he is a half-animal. Man's rationality pervades the wholeness of his nature so that his sensations, instincts and impulses are not purely animal but have that seal of rationality which characterizes them as human.

Thus, man is characterized not by what he has in common with animals, but by what differentiates him from them. This differentiation is fundamental, not accidental. Man is a rational animal. Man's rationality is what makes human nature unique and fundamentally distinct from animal nature.[20]

To consider man strictly as an animal is to deny his rationality and, therefore, his free will. Likewise, to consider animals as if they were human is to attribute to them a non-existent rationality.

From Science To Mythology

Dr. Bagemihl's Biological Exuberance research displays his fundamental dissatisfaction with science and enthusiasm for aboriginal mythology:

Western science has a lot to learn from aboriginal cultures about systems of gender and sexuality...[21]

To Western science, homosexuality (both animal and human) is an anomaly, an unexpected behavior that above all requires some sort of "explanation" or "cause" or "rationale." In contrast, to many indigenous cultures around the world, homosexuality and transgender are a routine and expected occurrence in both the human and animal worlds...[22]

Most Native American tribes formally recognize--and honor--human homosexuality and transgender in the role of the 'two-spirit' person (sometimes formerly known as berdache). The 'two-spirit' is a sacred man or woman who mixes gender categories by wearing clothes of opposite or both sexes .... And often engaging in same -sex relations. ... In many Native American cultures, certain animals are also symbolically associated with two-spiritedness, often in the form of creation myths and origin legends relating to the first or "supernatural" two-spirit(s)....A Zuni creation story relates how the first two spirits--creatures that were neither male nor female, yet both at the same time--were the twelve offspring of a mythical brother-sister pair. Some of these creatures were human, but one was a bat and another an old buck Deer.[23]

Dr. Bagemihl applies this androgynous myth, so widespread in today's homosexual movement, to the animal kingdom with the help of Indian and aboriginal mythology. He invites the West to embrace "a new paradigm:"[24]

Ultimately, the synthesis of scientific views represented by Biological Exuberance brings us full circle--back to the way of looking at the world that is in accordance with some of the most ancient indigenous conceptions of animal (and human) sexual and gender variability. This perspective dissolves binary oppositions....Biological Exuberance is...a worldview that is at once primordial and futuristic, in which gender is kaleidoscopic, sexualities are multiple, and the categories of male and female are fluid and transmutable.[25]

Conclusion

In summary, the homosexual movement's attempt to establish that homosexuality is in accordance with human nature, by proving its animal homosexuality theory, is based more on mythological beliefs and erroneous philosophical tenets than on science.

Source: http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html
That article was hilarious, I got a chuckle from it. It was full of so many inconsistencies. First of all, it pretends the 1500 species where homosexuality was documented and the 500 species where homosexuality is well understood does not even exist. In other words it ignored empirical scientific evidence which has been published in a scientific journal. Second, cannibalism and offspring killing is done by human beings. There are still cannibalistic tribes in the world which see cannibalism as tradition, and there were people in the Bible who were more than happy to kill their offspring for god when he demanded it. Yeah, your god is an awesome god alright. Regarding instinctive behaviors in animals, he equates filicide and cannibalism with homosexuality, ignoring the fact that the first two behaviors do not occur that often and when they do occur it is under very specific circumstances. This makes for a terrible analogy. Comparing filicide and cannibalism to homosexuality in animals is as ridiculous as comparing rape and murder to homosexuality in humans.

But here is where the funny part begins. After seeing so many inconsistencies with the article I decided to do a background check on the author, Luiz Sergio. You know what I found? He has absolutely NO credentials which would make him qualified to have an opinion on the subject which can be taken seriously. He has no scientific credentials at all. No PhD, Masters, Bachelors, zilch. He has nothing, yet he is trying to tell actual scientists that their findings in their own fields are wrong. That's like a burger flipper trying to lecture a brain surgeon on cerebral aneurysms.

He is the author of Defending A Higher Law: Why We Must Resist Same-Sex "Marriage" and the Homosexual Movement. The name of the book itself even implies it is purely religious by having the words "higher law" in the title. He is also a member of the American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property, which is yet another religious anti-homosexual discriminatory group. This is the group that claims homosexuals can become straight, yet have not provided us with any scientific data to support that idea which would be able to make it through a scientific journal. I also did a background check on the book he wrote. He makes it clear from the outset that he is writing from a religious perspective, and not a scientific one yet in the article you just gave me which he wrote, he claims to be using science but his arguments from his article and his book are exactly the same, they are both based only on religion and not science. Throughout the book he disregards real science for junk science by picking and choosing, which eradicates all credibility when it comes to his arguments, and thus this article since it uses the exact same arguments. The author makes analogies between human behaviors and animal behaviors that simply don't add up, which is one of the inconsistencies with I found in the article you just posted. His book is one big misinformed mess which would get laughed at if presented to the scientific community.

You know what I found hilarious though? The citations the article uses. Every one of them are either outdated. It uses outdated articles mostly from the early and mid 1990's and even one as far back as 1950, and some of the links aren't even available anymore. The second link, I admittedly thought was to a scientific article which was actually credible... until I looked up the website and found out the "tfp" stands for "tradition, family, property". You know, the fundamentalist religious organization I mentioned earlier which he is a part of.

"Not Genetic! Not Irreversible! Not Natural!"http://www.tfp.org/tfc/boston_scientific.pdf.

The source is not only not credible, but the article doesn't even exist.

You know what else is funny? Check out his beliefs

http://www.takeonit.com/expert/563.aspx

He is a creationist and doesn't believe in evolution!!! Don't you see how funny how that is?! He doesn't believe in evolution, yet you gave me an article where he is speculating on it! All I got to say to that is... LOL

Here is MY conclusion to the conclusion Sergio made: He has absolutely no idea what he is talking about, and his article is absolute garbage. He is trying to work on a field of science when he has no scientific credentials. We don't even know if he graduated high school, because I couldn't find any diplomas from him. There isn't even a wikipedia page for this guy. The article you linked says he specializes in philosophy and theology (again, purely religious) yet gives no credentials to prove it. Usually a creationist pretending to be a scientist will at least get a fake PhD from a diploma mill like Kent Hovind, but this guy doesn't even bother covering it up. He uses articles that are outdated because his religious opinions are not consistent with the recent studies we've made about homosexuality in animals. He has cited nothing past the year 1996 for his article which would be able to support his views without having to be taken out of context. This article was even updated in 2008 and the outdated citations are STILL there. That means that none of the recent studies about animal homosexuality support what he's saying, otherwise he would have added it.

So here is my suggestion: instead of finding a creationist article, you should debate me with your own opinions. Try doing your own research, and find actual scientific evidence. I'm the kind of guy who does background checks on articles, websites and citations, so don't rely on creationist articles to debate me because those never hold up to modern science.
Last edited by ramunematt on Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ramunematt
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by ramunematt »

Gman wrote:
ramunematt wrote:There is no reason you should try interfering with other people's lifestyles. What people do in their bedrooms and their relationships,is none of your business..
I can't rightfully support a lifestyle that promotes death and disease to other people... When people start dying from it, we WILL interfere...
So... being gay promotes death? And disease?
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by Gman »

ramunematt wrote: That article was hilarious, I got a chuckle from it. It was full of so many inconsistencies. First of all, it pretends the 1500 species where homosexuality was documented and the 500 species where homosexuality is well understood does not even exist. In other words it ignored empirical scientific evidence which has been published in a scientific journal.
So? Just because something is in a scientific journal doesn't necessarily mean that it is science.. When has something been declared science in a scientific journal before only to be proven wrong years later?
ramunematt wrote: Second, cannibalism and offspring killing is done by human beings. There are still cannibalistic tribes in the world which see cannibalism as tradition, and there were people in the Bible who were more than happy to kill their offspring for god when he demanded it. Yeah, your god is an awesome god alright. Regarding instinctive behaviors in animals, he equates filicide and cannibalism with homosexuality, ignoring the fact that the first two behaviors do not occur that often and when they do occur it is under very specific circumstances. This makes for a terrible analogy. Comparing filicide and cannibalism to homosexuality in animals is as ridiculous as comparing rape and murder to homosexuality in humans.
You know nothing about the God of the Bible... Never was cannibalism ever sanctioned in the Bible.. And as for a terrible analogy, your analogies are silly as well. Just because a male dog tries to hump another male dog you think that it is gay? LOL That assumption is utterly ridiculous. So with that logic every time a dog tries to hump it's maters leg it is gay? Maybe it prefers human sex over animal sex?

Also in case you haven't noticed, animals are not moral creatures...
ramunematt wrote:But here is where the funny part begins. After seeing so many inconsistencies with the article I decided to do a background check on the author, Luiz Sergio. You know what I found? He has absolutely NO credentials which would make him qualified to have an opinion on the subject which can be taken seriously. He has no scientific credentials at all. No PhD, Masters, Bachelors, zilch. He has nothing, yet he is trying to tell actual scientists that their findings in their own fields are wrong. That's like a burger flipper trying to lecture a brain surgeon on cerebral aneurysms.

He is the author of Defending A Higher Law: Why We Must Resist Same-Sex "Marriage" and the Homosexual Movement. The name of the book itself even implies it is purely religious by having the words "higher law" in the title. He is also a member of the American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property, which is yet another religious anti-homosexual discriminatory group. This is the group that claims homosexuals can become straight, yet have not provided us with any scientific data to support that idea which would be able to make it through a scientific journal. I also did a background check on the book he wrote. He makes it clear from the outset that he is writing from a religious perspective, and not a scientific one yet in the article you just gave me which he wrote, he claims to be using science but his arguments from his article and his book are exactly the same, they are both based only on religion and not science. Throughout the book he disregards real science for junk science by picking and choosing, which eradicates all credibility when it comes to his arguments, and thus this article since it uses the exact same arguments. The author makes analogies between human behaviors and animal behaviors that simply don't add up, which is one of the inconsistencies with I found in the article you just posted. His book is one big misinformed mess which would get laughed at if presented to the scientific community.

You know what I found hilarious though? The citations the article uses. Every one of them are either outdated. It uses outdated articles mostly from the early and mid 1990's and even one as far back as 1950, and some of the links aren't even available anymore. The second link, I admittedly thought was to a scientific article which was actually credible... until I looked up the website and found out the "tfp" stands for "tradition, family, property". You know, the fundamentalist religious organization I mentioned earlier which he is a part of.

"Not Genetic! Not Irreversible! Not Natural!"http://www.tfp.org/tfc/boston_scientific.pdf.
Maybe you want to take on some of the scientific data here...

Genetics and Homosexuality: Are People Born Gay? The Biological Basis for Sexual Orientation
http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... ality.html
ramunematt wrote:The source is not only not credible, but the article doesn't even exist.

You know what else is funny? Check out his beliefs

http://www.takeonit.com/expert/563.aspx

He is a creationist and doesn't believe in evolution!!! Don't you see how funny how that is?! He doesn't believe in evolution, yet you gave me an article where he is speculating on it! All I got to say to that is... LOL
So since when does someone need a PHD to have an opinion? Contrary to popular belief, Darwin was not a scientist. Although deeply interested in biological science, he received his theology degree from Cambridge in 1831.. In fact hardly any of the founding fathers of evolution had a degree in science.
ramunematt wrote:Here is MY conclusion to the conclusion Sergio made: He has absolutely no idea what he is talking about, and his article is absolute garbage.
Your articles are garbage? I would agree with that..
ramunematt wrote:He is trying to work on a field of science when he has no scientific credentials. We don't even know if he graduated high school, because I couldn't find any diplomas from him. There isn't even a wikipedia page for this guy. The article you linked says he specializes in philosophy and theology (again, purely religious) yet gives no credentials to prove it. Usually a creationist pretending to be a scientist will at least get a fake PhD from a diploma mill like Kent Hovind, but this guy doesn't even bother covering it up. He uses articles that are outdated because his religious opinions are not consistent with the recent studies we've made about homosexuality in animals. He has cited nothing past the year 1996 for his article which would be able to support his views without having to be taken out of context. This article was even updated in 2008 and the outdated citations are STILL there. That means that none of the recent studies about animal homosexuality support what he's saying, otherwise he would have added it.
You have no empirical data for your assumptions.. They are merely your religious beliefs...
ramunematt wrote:So here is my suggestion: instead of finding a creationist article, you should debate me with your own opinions. Try doing your own research, and find actual scientific evidence. I'm the kind of guy who does background checks on articles, websites and citations, so don't rely on creationist articles to debate me because those never hold up to modern science.
You accuse us of using articles? Then why are you quoting articles? Also you don't have the cornerstone on science..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by Gman »

ramunematt wrote:
So... being gay promotes death? And disease?
Not just death.. It's a perverted lifestyle.. And I can't consciously vote for something that I think could harm someone. You see that body was not designed for sticking things where they shouldn't belong. Again this type of lifestyle...

1. It eliminates procreation.
2. It promotes diseases (some deadly). See here.
3. Many forms of sexual behavior prevent blood from being accepted through the Red Cross and other agencies.
4. It destroys traditional male/female family units. Children are separated from their biological parents.
5. It could promote polygamy and other alternatives to one-man, one-woman unions. One being man-boy perverted unions. (NAMBLA)
6. Public schools in the nation will be required to teach that this perversion is the moral equivalent of traditional marriage between a man and a woman.
7. Courts will not be able to favor a traditional family involving one man and one woman over a homosexual couple in matters of adoption.
8. Promotes psychiatric, mental and emotional disorders. See here.
9. Raises insurance costs for everyone.
10. Children will be placed in homes with parents representing only one sex on an equal basis with those having a mom and a dad.

Source: http://www.nogaymarriage.com/tenarguments.asp
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by Vice »

Gman wrote: 1. It eliminates procreation.
So? Not everyone has to be gay and it reduces overpopulation and such.

2. It promotes diseases (some deadly). See here.
You know...Gay people can have protected sex too and you can also get diseases in a straight sexual encounter.
3. Many forms of sexual behavior prevent blood from being accepted through the Red Cross and other agencies.
What?
4. It destroys traditional male/female family units. Children are separated from their biological parents.
That happens all the time in real life and it's fine.
5. It could promote polygamy and other alternatives to one-man, one-woman unions. One being man-boy perverted unions. (NAMBLA)
So what you're saying is, being gay leads to pedophilia? No.
6. Public schools in the nation will be required to teach that this perversion is the moral equivalent of traditional marriage between a man and a woman.
Gay marriage and polygamy is just as "moral" as traditional marriage. In fact, I'm prone to say 14 year olds are plenty old enough to decide if they want to be sexually active or not and or marry some one older.
7. Courts will not be able to favor a traditional family involving one man and one woman over a homosexual couple in matters of adoption.
Who cares? If the homosexual parents are better suited to take care of the child why not?
8. Promotes psychiatric, mental and emotional disorders. See here.
The problem is this isn't factual. In fact psychiatic and emotional disorders stem from many things. It certainly isn't because a kid has two daddies.
9. Raises insurance costs for everyone.
:\ How?
10. Children will be placed in homes with parents representing only one sex on an equal basis with those having a mom and a dad.

Source: http://www.nogaymarriage.com/tenarguments.asp
Okay? And?

Let me ask you this, Let's say the birth mother of a child dies. The father is the only one left. Let's say, his brother helps him raise the child.

Is this okay for two men to raise this child simply because they are not having sex?
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by cslewislover »

Vice wrote: So what you're saying is, being gay leads to pedophilia? No.
6. Public schools in the nation will be required to teach that this perversion is the moral equivalent of traditional marriage between a man and a woman.
Gay marriage and polygamy is just as "moral" as traditional marriage. In fact, I'm prone to say 14 year olds are plenty old enough to decide if they want to be sexually active or not and or marry some one older.

Let me ask you this, Let's say the birth mother of a child dies. The father is the only one left. Let's say, his brother helps him raise the child.

Is this okay for two men to raise this child simply because they are not having sex?

So, no pedophilia, but it's OK to take advantage of an inexperienced 14 year old?? And, how could a 14 year old possibly be old enough to know if they want to marry someone? I remember being 14, and that's ludicrous.

Your scenario about raising a child is silly too. Two brothers are going to behave differently than two male lovers. There are studies showing that homosexual males just don't stay together in monogamous relationships.

This is from a detailed article by Dr. John Riggs, and it can be found here: The Health Risks of Gay Sex

Monogamy

Monogamy for heterosexual couples means at a minimum sexual fidelity. The most extensive survey of sex in America found that "a vast majority [of heterosexual married couples] are faithful while the marriage is intact."99 The survey further found that 94 percent of married people and 75 percent of cohabiting people had only one partner in the prior year.100 In contrast, long-term sexual fidelity is rare among GLB couples, particularly among gay males. Even during the coupling period, many gay men do not expect monogamy. A lesbian critic of gay males notes that:

"After a period of optimism about the longrange potential of gay men's one-on-one relationships, gay magazines are starting to acknowledge the more relaxed standards operating here, with recent articles celebrating the bigger bang of sex with strangers or proposing 'monogamy without fidelity'-the latest Orwellian formulation to excuse having your cake and eating it too."

Gay men's sexual practices appear to be consistent with the concept of "monogamy without fidelity." A study of gay men attending circuit parties showed that 46 percent were coupled, that is, they claimed to have a "primary partner."

Twenty-seven percent of the men with primary partners "had multiple sex partners (oral or anal) during their most recent circuit party weekend . . . ." For gay men, sex outside the primary relationship is ubiquitous even during the first year. Gay men reportedly have sex with someone other than their partner in 66 percent of relationships within the first year, rising to approximately 90 percent if the relationship endures over five years. And the average gay or lesbian relationship is short lived. In one study, only 15 percent of gay men and 17.3 percent of lesbians had relationships that lasted more than three years. Thus, the studies reflect very little long-term monogamy in GLB relationships.

Promiscuity

Gay author Gabriel Rotello notes the perspective of many gays that "Gay liberation was founded . . . on a 'sexual brotherhood of promiscuity,' and any abandonment of that promiscuity would amount to a 'communal betrayal of gargantuan proportions.'"4 Rotello's perception of gay promiscuity, which he criticizes, is consistent with survey results. A far-ranging study of homosexual men published in 1978 revealed that 75 percent of self-identified, white, gay men admitted to having sex with more than 100 different males in their lifetime: 15 percent claimed 100-249 sex partners; 17 percent claimed 250- 499; 15 percent claimed 500-999; and 28 percent claimed more than 1,000 lifetime male sex partners.5By 1984, after the AIDS epidemic had taken hold, homosexual men were reportedly curtailing promiscuity, but not by much. Instead of more than 6 partners per month in 1982, the average non-monogamous respondent in San Francisco reported having about 4 partners per month in 1984.

In more recent years, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control has reported an upswing in promiscuity, at least among young homosexual men in San Francisco. From 1994 to 1997, the percentage of homosexual men reporting multiple partners and unprotected anal sex rose from 23.6 percent to 33.3 percent, with the largest increase among men under 25. Despite its continuing incurability, AIDS no longer seems to deter individuals from engaging in promiscuous gay sex.

The data relating to gay promiscuity were obtained from self-identified gay men. Some advocates argue that the average would be lower if closeted homosexuals were included in the statistics. That is likely true, according to data obtained in a 2000 survey in Australia that tracked whether men who had sex with men were associated with the gay community. Men who were associated with the gay community were nearly four times as likely to have had more than 50 sex partners in the six months preceding the survey as men who were not associated with the gay community. This may imply that it is riskier to be "out" than "closeted." Adopting a gay identity may create more pressure to be promiscuous and to be so with a cohort of other more promiscuous partners.

Excessive sexual promiscuity results in serious medical consequences — indeed, it is a recipe for transmitting disease and generating an epidemic. The HIV/AIDS epidemic has remained a predominantly gay issue in the U.S. primarily because of the greater degree of promiscuity among gays.12 A study based upon statistics from 1986 through 1990 estimated that 20-year-old gay men had a 50 percent chance of becoming HIV positive by age 55.13 As of June 2001, nearly 64 percent of men with AIDS were men who have had sex with men.14 Syphilis is also more common among gay men. The San Francisco Public Health Department recently reported that syphilis among the city's gay and bisexual men was at epidemic levels. According to the San Francisco Chronicle:

"Experts believe syphilis is on the rise among gay and bisexual men because they are engaging in unprotected sex with multiple partners, many of whom they met in anonymous situations such as sex clubs, adult bookstores, meetings through the Internet and in bathhouses. The new data will show that in the 93 cases involving gay and bisexual men this year, the group reported having 1,225 sexual partners."

A study done in Baltimore and reported in the Archives of Internal Medicine found that gay men contracted syphilis at three to four times the rate of heterosexuals. Promiscuity is the factor most responsible for the extreme rates of these and other Sexually Transmitted Diseases cited below, many of which result in a shortened life span for men who have sex with men.
Promiscuity among lesbians is less extreme, but it is still higher than among heterosexual women. Overall, women tend to have fewer sex partners than men.

But there is a surprising finding about lesbian promiscuity in the literature. Australian investigators reported that lesbian women were 4.5 times more likely to have had more than 50 lifetime male partners than heterosexual women (9 percent of lesbians versus 2 percent of heterosexual women); and 93 percent of women who identified themselves as lesbian reported a history of sex with men. Other studies similarly show that 75-90 percent of women who have sex with women have also had sex with men.
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by Vice »

cslewislover wrote:
Vice wrote: So what you're saying is, being gay leads to pedophilia? No.
6. Public schools in the nation will be required to teach that this perversion is the moral equivalent of traditional marriage between a man and a woman.
Gay marriage and polygamy is just as "moral" as traditional marriage. In fact, I'm prone to say 14 year olds are plenty old enough to decide if they want to be sexually active or not and or marry some one older.

Let me ask you this, Let's say the birth mother of a child dies. The father is the only one left. Let's say, his brother helps him raise the child.

Is this okay for two men to raise this child simply because they are not having sex?

So, no pedophilia, but it's OK to take advantage of an inexperienced 14 year old?? And, how could a 14 year old possibly be old enough to know if they want to marry someone? I remember being 14, and that's ludicrous.

Your scenario about raising a child is silly too. Two brothers are going to behave differently than two male lovers. There are studies showing that homosexual males just don't stay together in monogamous relationships.

This is from a detailed article by Dr. John Riggs, and it can be found here: The Health Risks of Gay Sex

Monogamy

Monogamy for heterosexual couples means at a minimum sexual fidelity. The most extensive survey of sex in America found that "a vast majority [of heterosexual married couples] are faithful while the marriage is intact."99 The survey further found that 94 percent of married people and 75 percent of cohabiting people had only one partner in the prior year.100 In contrast, long-term sexual fidelity is rare among GLB couples, particularly among gay males. Even during the coupling period, many gay men do not expect monogamy. A lesbian critic of gay males notes that:

"After a period of optimism about the longrange potential of gay men's one-on-one relationships, gay magazines are starting to acknowledge the more relaxed standards operating here, with recent articles celebrating the bigger bang of sex with strangers or proposing 'monogamy without fidelity'-the latest Orwellian formulation to excuse having your cake and eating it too."

Gay men's sexual practices appear to be consistent with the concept of "monogamy without fidelity." A study of gay men attending circuit parties showed that 46 percent were coupled, that is, they claimed to have a "primary partner."

Twenty-seven percent of the men with primary partners "had multiple sex partners (oral or anal) during their most recent circuit party weekend . . . ." For gay men, sex outside the primary relationship is ubiquitous even during the first year. Gay men reportedly have sex with someone other than their partner in 66 percent of relationships within the first year, rising to approximately 90 percent if the relationship endures over five years. And the average gay or lesbian relationship is short lived. In one study, only 15 percent of gay men and 17.3 percent of lesbians had relationships that lasted more than three years. Thus, the studies reflect very little long-term monogamy in GLB relationships.

Promiscuity

Gay author Gabriel Rotello notes the perspective of many gays that "Gay liberation was founded . . . on a 'sexual brotherhood of promiscuity,' and any abandonment of that promiscuity would amount to a 'communal betrayal of gargantuan proportions.'"4 Rotello's perception of gay promiscuity, which he criticizes, is consistent with survey results. A far-ranging study of homosexual men published in 1978 revealed that 75 percent of self-identified, white, gay men admitted to having sex with more than 100 different males in their lifetime: 15 percent claimed 100-249 sex partners; 17 percent claimed 250- 499; 15 percent claimed 500-999; and 28 percent claimed more than 1,000 lifetime male sex partners.5By 1984, after the AIDS epidemic had taken hold, homosexual men were reportedly curtailing promiscuity, but not by much. Instead of more than 6 partners per month in 1982, the average non-monogamous respondent in San Francisco reported having about 4 partners per month in 1984.

In more recent years, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control has reported an upswing in promiscuity, at least among young homosexual men in San Francisco. From 1994 to 1997, the percentage of homosexual men reporting multiple partners and unprotected anal sex rose from 23.6 percent to 33.3 percent, with the largest increase among men under 25. Despite its continuing incurability, AIDS no longer seems to deter individuals from engaging in promiscuous gay sex.

The data relating to gay promiscuity were obtained from self-identified gay men. Some advocates argue that the average would be lower if closeted homosexuals were included in the statistics. That is likely true, according to data obtained in a 2000 survey in Australia that tracked whether men who had sex with men were associated with the gay community. Men who were associated with the gay community were nearly four times as likely to have had more than 50 sex partners in the six months preceding the survey as men who were not associated with the gay community. This may imply that it is riskier to be "out" than "closeted." Adopting a gay identity may create more pressure to be promiscuous and to be so with a cohort of other more promiscuous partners.

Excessive sexual promiscuity results in serious medical consequences — indeed, it is a recipe for transmitting disease and generating an epidemic. The HIV/AIDS epidemic has remained a predominantly gay issue in the U.S. primarily because of the greater degree of promiscuity among gays.12 A study based upon statistics from 1986 through 1990 estimated that 20-year-old gay men had a 50 percent chance of becoming HIV positive by age 55.13 As of June 2001, nearly 64 percent of men with AIDS were men who have had sex with men.14 Syphilis is also more common among gay men. The San Francisco Public Health Department recently reported that syphilis among the city's gay and bisexual men was at epidemic levels. According to the San Francisco Chronicle:

"Experts believe syphilis is on the rise among gay and bisexual men because they are engaging in unprotected sex with multiple partners, many of whom they met in anonymous situations such as sex clubs, adult bookstores, meetings through the Internet and in bathhouses. The new data will show that in the 93 cases involving gay and bisexual men this year, the group reported having 1,225 sexual partners."

A study done in Baltimore and reported in the Archives of Internal Medicine found that gay men contracted syphilis at three to four times the rate of heterosexuals. Promiscuity is the factor most responsible for the extreme rates of these and other Sexually Transmitted Diseases cited below, many of which result in a shortened life span for men who have sex with men.
Promiscuity among lesbians is less extreme, but it is still higher than among heterosexual women. Overall, women tend to have fewer sex partners than men.

But there is a surprising finding about lesbian promiscuity in the literature. Australian investigators reported that lesbian women were 4.5 times more likely to have had more than 50 lifetime male partners than heterosexual women (9 percent of lesbians versus 2 percent of heterosexual women); and 93 percent of women who identified themselves as lesbian reported a history of sex with men. Other studies similarly show that 75-90 percent of women who have sex with women have also had sex with men.
I'm glad you brought that dishonest man in to this.

http://webzoom.freewebs.com/palmettoumo ... 20lies.pdf

This should explain why this man should not be trusted.
cslewislover
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Re: Homosexuality and destroying faith

Post by cslewislover »

Go look at the references and studies that he cites in the article, and prove that they are false, and then I'll believe what you say. Riggs may be biased, but I'm sure the studies are not. Your article is very probably also biased. I wouldn't mind looking into it some more, but I think there's enough known about the physical (if not mental) health problems of homosexual sex. Even my women's gynecology books says the same thing as Rigg's article about the results of anal intercourse.

Thinking it's OK to have sex with 14 year olds is just gross, and against the law (if you are not also a minor). 14 year olds do not at all have any type of life experience to know what sex will do to them in the long run, and they certainly don't know themselves enough yet, let alone others, to be able to choose a good life partner.
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"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis
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