If babies automatically go to heaven...

[Different_Name]

Then wouldn't abortion be doing the aborted fetuses a great favor by giving them a free ticket to heaven without them having the chance to deny Jesus?

[Telstra Robs]

By that logic, killing Christians should be commended as you're sending them to heavan?

[smiley]

If Christianity is true, yes. But we can't be sure.

And even if we could establish that it is true, we as humans don't have the right to kill babies. The whole purpose of this life (if Christianity is true) is to decide whether we want to be with God or not. And killing them would be taking away a chance to choose and decide for themselves.

[B. W.]

Then wouldn't abortion be doing the aborted fetuses a great favor by giving them a free ticket to heaven without them having the chance to deny Jesus?

NO

It instead indicts human beings as incapable of exercising love, failure to take responsibility for their acts and manipulate God's goodness to continue to keep on -keeping on doing the above stated things. All justified by use of Different Names so stated Logic…
-
-
-

[cslewislover]

We keep getting this question asked here, it seems. The question doesn't mean much when, by heaven's maker, we are told not to murder. If we are not to murder, we are not to decide the baby's fate for them.

[Different_Name]

Thank you for all your responses.

The one that caught my eye was the one that said how it is removing the individual's free will. And to God, free will is more important than a lot of things. I had not thought of that aspect before. Not to mention that it is removing the individual's opportunity to live a life on this earth, an opportunity that one only has once.

[cslewislover]

I'm glad you could get some help here. I was wondering if you were someone who was banned before, because of your user name. We have an "introduce yourself" thread, if you'd like to post on it, in the general chat section.

[BavarianWheels]

.
.
Here we go...

It's interesting this belief of the majority of Christianity. That being that at death we go to heaven. It's not taught in the scripture. The reward does not come at death, but at Christ's return.

Revelation 22:12 - "I am coming soon. My reward is with me."

John 11:14 - "...told them PLAINLY, "Lazarus is dead...but let us go to him."

This is our Lord speaking. Where did they go to meet with Lazarus, the dead man? What a golden opportunity missed for Jesus to teach about Death=Heaven. Not one hint that at death Lazarus went to heaven. If Lazarus was in heaven partaking of a banquet feast, what a diservice Jesus did to him by yanking him back down.

One more question; Why is it only the currently living can be taken (in vision) to heaven, yet the dead that "were ACTUALLY THERE" have no words of description or encouragement for the living?
.

[sinnerbybirth]

.
.
Here we go...

It's interesting this belief of the majority of Christianity. That being that at death we go to heaven. It's not taught in the scripture. The reward does not come at death, but at Christ's return.

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Revelation%2022.12" target=_blank lbsReference="Revelation 22.12|ESV">Revelation 22:12</A> - "I am coming soon. My reward is with me."

<A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/John%2011.14" target=_blank lbsReference="John 11.14|ESV">John 11:14</A> - "...told them PLAINLY, "Lazarus is dead...but let us go to him."

This is our Lord speaking. Where did they go to meet with Lazarus, the dead man? What a golden opportunity missed for Jesus to teach about Death=Heaven. Not one hint that at death Lazarus went to heaven. If Lazarus was in heaven partaking of a banquet feast, what a diservice Jesus did to him by yanking him back down.

One more question; Why is it only the currently living can be taken (in vision) to heaven, yet the dead that "were ACTUALLY THERE" have no words of description or encouragement for the living?
.

Hey Bavarian,

Are you referring to soul sleep?

I'm very ignorant when It comes to what happens at death. Does the body and soul, sleep or, just the body? I know how I tend to lean about it. I have also read the other threads about soul sleep. This is something I was looking into about a month ago. I've read good arguments for both sides.

Just curious
GOD Bless

[BavarianWheels]

Hey Bavarian,

Are you referring to soul sleep?

I'm very ignorant when It comes to what happens at death. Does the body and soul, sleep or, just the body? I know how I tend to lean about it. I have also read the other threads about soul sleep. This is something I was looking into about a month ago. I've read good arguments for both sides.

Just curious
GOD Bless

If Soul Sleep is the belief that at death a person is simply dead...both body and soul, then I suppose it is. It is my position and one I believe fits best with the whole of scripture.
.
.

[sinnerbybirth]

Hey Bavarian,

Are you referring to soul sleep?

I'm very ignorant when It comes to what happens at death. Does the body and soul, sleep or, just the body? I know how I tend to lean about it. I have also read the other threads about soul sleep. This is something I was looking into about a month ago. I've read good arguments for both sides.

Just curious
GOD Bless

If Soul Sleep is the belief that at death a person is simply dead...both body and soul, then I suppose it is. It is my position and one I believe fits best with the whole of scripture.
.
.

Hey Bavarian,

I know this isn't the right post for this. May I PM you?

[RickD]

.
.
Here we go...

It's interesting this belief of the majority of Christianity. That being that at death we go to heaven. It's not taught in the scripture. The reward does not come at death, but at Christ's return.

Revelation 22:12 - "I am coming soon. My reward is with me."

John 11:14 - "...told them PLAINLY, "Lazarus is dead...but let us go to him."

This is our Lord speaking. Where did they go to meet with Lazarus, the dead man? What a golden opportunity missed for Jesus to teach about Death=Heaven. Not one hint that at death Lazarus went to heaven. If Lazarus was in heaven partaking of a banquet feast, what a diservice Jesus did to him by yanking him back down.

One more question; Why is it only the currently living can be taken (in vision) to heaven, yet the dead that "were ACTUALLY THERE" have no words of description or encouragement for the living?
.

2 Cor. 5:8 Isn't that saying that after we physically die, we are present with the Lord?

[B. W.]

.
.
Here we go...

It's interesting this belief of the majority of Christianity. That being that at death we go to heaven. It's not taught in the scripture. The reward does not come at death, but at Christ's return.

Revelation 22:12 - "I am coming soon. My reward is with me."

John 11:14 - "...told them PLAINLY, "Lazarus is dead...but let us go to him."

This is our Lord speaking. Where did they go to meet with Lazarus, the dead man? What a golden opportunity missed for Jesus to teach about Death=Heaven. Not one hint that at death Lazarus went to heaven. If Lazarus was in heaven partaking of a banquet feast, what a diservice Jesus did to him by yanking him back down.

One more question; Why is it only the currently living can be taken (in vision) to heaven, yet the dead that "were ACTUALLY THERE" have no words of description or encouragement for the living?
.

2 Cor. 5:8 Isn't that saying that after we physically die, we are present with the Lord?

What about - Job 25:5-6? Dead tremble... they are still cogizant...

Ezekiel 26:20

Ezekiel 32:18-32 - these are not asleep...

Isaiah 59:10JPS, sets forth an interesting principle about the dead wandering about in desolate places… correlating this to those living whom the prophecy concerns — feeling lost — eternally separated from God in a place where injustice rules… Note phrase dead wander about, full vigor - read this verse in several transaltions JPS, KJV, NASB, NIV, YLT, etc

-
-
-

[BavarianWheels]

What about - Job 25:5-6? Dead tremble... they are still cogizant...

Ezekiel 26:20

Ezekiel 32:18-32 - these are not asleep...

Isaiah 59:10JPS, sets forth an interesting principle about the dead wandering about in desolate places… correlating this to those living whom the prophecy concerns — feeling lost — eternally separated from God in a place where injustice rules… Note phrase dead wander about, full vigor - read this verse in several transaltions JPS, KJV, NASB, NIV, YLT, etc

Poetic language to illustrate points about death apart from Christ.

I would rather take Christ's words as the best example of what death is. It is a sleep where nothing is known and where the body and soul reside together awaiting God's call either as Jesus did for Lazarus or the final call at the 2nd coming.

Please explain the logic in resurrecting Lazarus if Lazarus was already enjoying heaven. If Lazarus was in heaven, as you all seem to suggest, why did Christ not explain where he was and what He would be doing if He raised him up from the "dead"?

This in fact is clearly what Jesus did do. He said, "Let us go to him..." He said, "Lazarus is sleeping..." He said plainly to them because they didn't understand Him, "Lazarus is dead." Where did they go to meet with Lazarus? Had Lazarus been in heaven, Christ could've called him down from heaven from anywhere on earth, correct?
.
.

[Byblos]

What about - Job 25:5-6? Dead tremble... they are still cogizant...

Ezekiel 26:20

Ezekiel 32:18-32 - these are not asleep...

Isaiah 59:10JPS, sets forth an interesting principle about the dead wandering about in desolate places… correlating this to those living whom the prophecy concerns — feeling lost — eternally separated from God in a place where injustice rules… Note phrase dead wander about, full vigor - read this verse in several transaltions JPS, KJV, NASB, NIV, YLT, etc

Poetic language to illustrate points about death apart from Christ.

I would rather take Christ's words as the best example of what death is. It is a sleep where nothing is known and where the body and soul reside together awaiting God's call either as Jesus did for Lazarus or the final call at the 2nd coming.

Please explain the logic in resurrecting Lazarus if Lazarus was already enjoying heaven. If Lazarus was in heaven, as you all seem to suggest, why did Christ not explain where he was and what He would be doing if He raised him up from the "dead"?

This in fact is clearly what Jesus did do. He said, "Let us go to him..." He said, "Lazarus is sleeping..." He said plainly to them because they didn't understand Him, "Lazarus is dead." Where did they go to meet with Lazarus? Had Lazarus been in heaven, Christ could've called him down from heaven from anywhere on earth, correct?
.
.

Lazarus was not in heaven since heaven was only made possible after the resurrection. He was most likely in Shoel, in what is known as Abraham's bosom. And Jesus had to physically go to where Lazarus' body is to prove that physical resurrection is possible, otherwise what would have been the point?