Faith: the absolute virtue?

LittleShepherd · Post by **LittleShepherd** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:52 pm

To know the answer to that question, you have to realize exactly what people are doing when they choose not to have faith in Christ. And what exactly they are doing when they claim that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough, or was just one of many ways to get right with God and go to heaven.

Hebrews 10:29 makes what they're doing abundantly clear:

"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Those who have not put their faith in Christ have done 3 things.

1 -- They have not returned His love, and have instead trampled on Christ and His sacrifice, counting it as worthless.

2 -- They do not consider Christ's blood holy, but rather count it as an unholy thing. Essentially no better than the blood of an animal.

3 -- The Holy Spirit gives them love, and they return nothing but spite. They say "I don't want you," or "I don't need you," and try to get to God their own way(pride).

Think about it. You create people in your very image, and they choose to turn away from you. Okay, that hurt, and you have to kick them out of your presence, but you still love them. I mean, you created them to love, and that hasn't changed -- so you make a promise to one day provide a sacrifice that will reconcile them to you.

One day you finally send this sacrifice to them, rejoicing that the day the people you love so much will be reconciled to you is finally at hand. And the sacrifice goes off without a hitch, just as planned. You've sent the one and only perfect way to reconcile with you. It's simple, it's free, and it's available to everybody who wants it.

Now you sit back, and rejoice as people come to you. But you notice that some people don't come to you. You've done all the work, provided an easy way to have eternal love, peace, happiness, etc., and...some people don't accept. In fact, some people actively hate you for what you've done, and go so far as to take their hatred out on your followers and live lives of bitterness and resentment.

See, this is why God doesn't extend His grace to people who don't have faith and repent. Because by not placing their faith in Christ and repenting of their sins, they're really doing a lot more than just "not believing." They're quite literally trampling Christ underfoot and slapping God in the face and saying "No, thanks. I can do it without you."

Battlehelmet · Post by **Battlehelmet** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:49 am

Wow.

Excellent post.

Since I am a scripture enthusiast,I will add one for the essay post.

"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and one and only Son, so that whoever believes in him may not perish but have eternal life.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:33 pm

I don't agree...Not believing simply means NOT BELIEVING...It doesn't necessarily mean turning your back on God purposefully, declining God's offer or even HATING him...Many people want proofs, facts, they want to see, to witness...Is it a sin? Maybe you see proof of God's existence everywhere, but it all comes from faith, nothing else, and the world can be interpreted a million different (wrong) ways ( many people don't even care to know, won't look into it...) . I can hear you respond "God sacrificed his son for us, what other proof do they need?" I don't think anybody today can say they witnessed that sacrifice...I don't think that any historian today considers the Christ's resurrection as an historical fact...As time goes by (2000 years is a loooooong time for man, God knows that too...

),doubt sets in, questions are raised, stories are told and changed...People know that. We all know that. I think you should be a little bit more open-minded on reasons why people don't believe, life is not a straight road, people suffer, people change, and faith is not "free", wanting it does not mean having it. (I hear and read that a lot, and this concept of faith being free is false, nothing is free when it comes to matters of spirituality, you can't "make" yourself believe, you do or you don't).
Now a word about the concept of suffering and sacrifice. Some men, women and children live and die in horrendous ways I don't even want to depict. I am sure many of these people lost faith in any God. I am sure many of these people, when hearing about the Christ's death, would actually think of it as a walk in the park compared to their lives of suffering...Think that Jesus knew as he died that he was going to be with his father in heaven the very next moment...think that Jesus raised from the dead after 3 days...Where is the sacrifice from God?: Sending his son Jesus to a fairly quick death ( a few hours) as a martyr and resurrecting him to become Godly himself, or sending the people I mentionned earlier (his children, as we all are...) in hell for eternity after a LIFE of suffering because they never aknowledged the very existence of his son? As I said in a previous post, Jesus came with a message. The message is what matters...I want to add that this comparison is not meant in any way to lower the importance of the Christ's crucifixion. I just want to discuss its meaning and its consequences since they relate directly to that bizarre belief that faith is necessary for salvation.
If we, as men, can understand why some have no faith, I'm sure God can...

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:37 pm

you can't "make" yourself believe, you do or you don't)

I'm living proof that this statement is wrong. The bible tells you exactly what you must do to believe. I can't tell you how because the message is revealed to each person in a different way. But I don't find the "i can't choose what to believe" excuse to hold any water.

Battlehelmet · Post by **Battlehelmet** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:53 pm

Ditto on everything in this thread..Word. Straight up

Battlehelmet · Post by **Battlehelmet** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:57 pm

Mastermind wrote:
you can't "make" yourself believe, you do or you don't)
I'm living proof that this statement is wrong. The bible tells you exactly what you must do to believe. I can't tell you how because the message is revealed to each person in a different way. But I don't find the "i can't choose what to believe" excuse to hold any water.

How are you "living proof"?

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:12 pm

Because I made myself believe.

LittleShepherd · Post by **LittleShepherd** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:04 am

How can you say "I want to add that this comparison is not meant in any way to lower the importance of the Christ's crucifixion" while saying that you don't believe it was a sacrifice at all, or that it is the only way to reconcile with God? You prove the statement that those who choose not to believe do indeed count Christ's sacrifice as worthless, and trample Christ underfoot. Whether you do it on purpose or not...well, at this point I don't believe you when you say it's not on purpose. You've seen the arguments. You've seen the facts. I don't know what, at this point, is holding you back.

As for being a sin to search -- no. In fact, we're encouraged to search. But not a false "I already know what I believe" search. A true, "I want to know the truth, and I will embrace it when I find it" search. What is a sin, however, is refusing to accept the truth once it's been revealed. You've seen more than enough to make a solid decision, and to stop being so wishy-washy in your beliefs. If you choose to remain in your wishy-washy stance, there's nothing more any of us can do. The arguments have been made. The ball's in your court.

And you're right. You can't make yourself believe something. Luckily, that's not an issue -- everyone, on some level, believes. God's existence is written on our hearts(conscience), and revealed in His creation. What you can do, however, is choose to have faith. Faith goes beyond mere belief. The choice to not put faith in God and seek after Him is, no matter what the circumstances, just that -- a choice.

Also, why does Christ's sacrifice being only 3 days in duration make it any less of a sacrifice? Maybe you're not impressed by the punishment He went through -- that can only be caused by a lack of understanding of Who exactly was taking the punishment. The ridicule and the humiliation. If I were to go without food for a week in order to be able to afford school supplies for my kid, would the fact that I'd be eating normally the next week somehow make it less of a sacrifice? No. The same with Christ's sacrifice. It only had to last long enough to pay the penalty for the sins of the world, and to fulfill Biblical prophecy -- and it did just that.

We, as men, "understand" why others don't have faith because we cannot see it all. We do not know every way in which God has reached out to a particular person, and we often miss the signs when He's reaching to us ourselves. God, on the other hand, can not understand this lack of faith because He knows exactly what He's done to reach out to each person, and knows exactly why their lack of faith is not justified. In other words -- the argument you made relies on a finite God in order to be remotely plausible.

LittleShepherd · Post by **LittleShepherd** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:09 am

Oh, and short replies to other arguments you made:

With modern science, and sound historical documentation(outside of the Bible, even), 2000 years isn't that much. We can, in fact, know that Jesus of Nazareth existed, and that He was crucified by decree of Pontius Pilate. Oh, and that Jesus' tomb is empty. Without any plausible reason -- his followers had no power to remove his body, and his enemies had no motive(in fact, it would have been in their best interest to make sure he stayed there).

As for everyone being God's children -- no. In fact, the Bible states that all unbelievers follow after their father, Satan. A strong statement, but accurate. It is only after the spiritual rebirth that happens after we turn to Christ in faith that we then become the children of God that we were created to be.

Battlehelmet · Post by **Battlehelmet** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:18 am

Mastermind wrote:Because I made myself believe.

Then you followed your own path and imagination.

Believe what exactly?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:35 pm

Little Shepherd, do you understand my posts?

Do you think you have to convince me of all this? I'm a believer, I have faith in God and in Christ, so you don't need to preach to me, especially not the way you do it: this is not what this discussion is about, save your arguments for atheists...BUT, even if I myself believe, I try and I want to understand WHY some people don't believe, and, according to that, understanding God's potential motives and intentions for his creatures... This is called empathy, and I seriously doubt your ability to show any, as prone as you are to deliver judgement, as sure as you are about picking who deserves to go to Heaven and who doesn't. This is called pride. As for this whole Satan's children nonsense, I don't even need to comment that, anyone reading your post will feel your bitterness keeping YOU from trying to look a little further, from trying to understand a little more people who are not as enlightened as you are...

LittleShepherd · Post by **LittleShepherd** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:03 pm

I thought I understood your posts, but if you're a believer...no, I don't. You have a very funny way of showing it. It honestly came across that you were an unbeliever. You might want to explain that's you're doing the "empathy" thing next time so as not to misrepresent yourself.

Also, I didn't deliver judgment on anyone, and I certainly never "decided who goes to heaven or not." You're reading way too much into what I said. I simply countered a few arguments. I find it somewhat amusing that you call me quick to judge(even when I didn't judge anyone), and then go on to make a judgment of your own(that I am without empathy).

Remember, Christians aren't the judges. They're the messengers. We don't condemn people; we just let them know that they are already condemned, and that they need to do something quick to change their situation. John 3:18 -- "He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

And about the children of Satan thing -- read John chapter 8 sometime. Jesus goes on to call those who didn't do as Abraham does, and those who don't follow after God children of the devil. Point blank-like, even. Verse 44 is the kicker -- "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies"

He only said that after a debate where the people tried to claim Abraham as their father, which Jesus refuted, and then to claim God as their father, which Jesus also refuted. He was speaking to Pharisees, but this message is universal. If you have not repented and placed your faith in Jesus, then you are not a child of God. If you are not a child of God, then you are a child of the devil, spiritually speaking.

I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air based on pride, or judgment, or anything of the sort. I'm saying this stuff because Jesus said it first, and people need to be warned of the true nature of their situation. To do any less would be deceitful, and...well, I was horribly deceitful once, and that's not a condition I'm eager to return to.