Why should I change myself from an Atheist to a Christian?

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jlay
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Re: Why should I change myself from an Atheist to a Christia

Post by jlay »

DannyM wrote:Jlay, reading your post I can not really disagree with you on hierarchy and wars being fought over religion. But to take the crusades, for example, do you honestly think that without religion blood would not have been spilled over something else? It's not religion that is responsible for wars; man is responsible for war. So if man had never made religion, would man have been passive forever after? When man uses religion for his own depraved/wicked/misguided ends, why blame the vehicle on which man has ridden instead of blaming man himself?
Well, then we are mostly in agreement. Because when we talk to the world about religion, do you think their mind goes to the Oxford definition, or are other images and meanings conjured in their minds? I have little doubt that man would war for any number of reasons. The United States was formed over a war on taxation. Wars would not exist without man, I agree. But neither would religion, regardless of how you want to define it.
Again, this is a matter of semantics. You are perceiving the word 'religion' to primarily pertain to YOUR personal Christian faith. No problem. That is not what I am contending with here.
I'll take Oxford for this one as it defines religion quite nicely...
I thought of including a formal definition and discussing in previous post. I am not dealing with a formal definition, but what connotations people have when they hear the word, 'religion.' I'd think they'd see more of the 'systems' that are in place. So, you won't find me arguing with you regarding the definition. But let us keep in mind that this is a general definition and refers to ANY system of faith, not just Christianity.
So religion has been abused? I agree. But do we honestly and rationally abandon religion and all the untold good which has come from Christianity just because the relatively few have abused their position or faith? Is that rational? I don't think it is.
Do Muslims need to abandon religion? Hindus? Atheists? Mormons? Did the Pharisees need to abandon their religion?
Christianity is a religion, a movement mobilised in reverence to the miracle of our Lord Jesus Christ. Without the very first - and very determined -mobilisation of Christians Christ's Glory would have been a mere fleeting moment, long forgotten by now. I respect you a heck of a lot, Jlay, but I think you are in error here brother. I stand with you on the more ludicrous aspects of our wonderful religion. But to throw the baby out with the bath water - Why?
Seems like Jesus went through intense scrutiny and condemnation from the religious people of His day. Christianity is only a religion in that it is a particular system of faith. However, a Muslim, no matter how religious, is more lost than the least devout believer in Christ. I am also convinced that the Christian religion (if we must call it) is littered with religious people who have never personally trusted in the work of Christ. Example: talking to a person of a particualr religion, I asked if they were saved. This was not met with testimony, but with friction. "Well, I don't have to be. I've been through the Catechism. I'm covered just in case it is true. I go to mass. etc." That my friend, is the spirit of religion. Or, the countless denominations that say, their way is the right way, or they are the one, true church. Or any group that tries to say, "Jesus + X (x being their religious system)= salvation."

Paul warned,
"Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh."
Me too. So by knowing Christ and knowing the truth then one becomes a Christian. That's religion for ya!
It is for this exact reason why I would not want to be known as just another religion. Becuase they are not all true, as we both know.
P.S. I'm not too interested in what James had to say.
I'm sure we can discuss that on another thread if you like, as this one is already well off topic.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: Why should I change myself from an Atheist to a Christia

Post by DannyM »

jlay wrote:Well, then we are mostly in agreement. Because when we talk to the world about religion, do you think their mind goes to the Oxford definition, or are other images and meanings conjured in their minds? I have little doubt that man would war for any number of reasons. The United States was formed over a war on taxation. Wars would not exist without man, I agree. But neither would religion, regardless of how you want to define it.
Again, this is a matter of semantics. You are perceiving the word 'religion' to primarily pertain to YOUR personal Christian faith. No problem. That is not what I am contending with here.


Sure, I get your point. But I believe only the irrational atheist's mind would conjur up images of wars, without a moment's thought for all the good done in the 'name' of religion, at the mention of religions. To put it another way, if I mentioned science to you and in particular nuclear physics, would your mind simply conjur up images of the atom bomb? Or would your mind also conjur up images of the untold good to have come from nuclear physics, like scientists being able to understand the workings of radiation and xrays having saved and still saving far more lives than those who have perished as a consequence of nuclear physics? Would you blame science for the atom bomb? Would you become anti-science? Or would you call the atom bomb an abuse of science?
jlay wrote:I thought of including a formal definition and discussing in previous post. I am not dealing with a formal definition, but what connotations people have when they hear the word, 'religion.' I'd think they'd see more of the 'systems' that are in place. So, you won't find me arguing with you regarding the definition. But let us keep in mind that this is a general definition and refers to ANY system of faith, not just Christianity. Do Muslims need to abandon religion? Hindus? Atheists? Mormons? Did the Pharisees need to abandon their religion?
Regardless of the fact that Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons etc are not saved, I still say that the overwhelming majority of these religious people have only done good in their life times. Religion on the whole has been a force for the good. These people are by and large peaceful people, and wouldn't hurt a soul. I can only applaud this and could never bring myself to be anti-religion. As I say, I'm with you when it comes to nonsensical and contrary 'rules' and hierarchy and positions of grandeur - these do not please God in the slightest; but while God wants all these people of different religions to come to Him, I'd like to think He would appreciate these religions for their largely peaceful adherents. God cannot despise the peaceful man.
jlay wrote:Seems like Jesus went through intense scrutiny and condemnation from the religious people of His day. Christianity is only a religion in that it is a particular system of faith. However, a Muslim, no matter how religious, is more lost than the least devout believer in Christ. I am also convinced that the Christian religion (if we must call it) is littered with religious people who have never personally trusted in the work of Christ. Example: talking to a person of a particualr religion, I asked if they were saved. This was not met with testimony, but with friction. "Well, I don't have to be. I've been through the Catechism. I'm covered just in case it is true. I go to mass. etc." That my friend, is the spirit of religion. Or, the countless denominations that say, their way is the right way, or they are the one, true church. Or any group that tries to say, "Jesus + X (x being their religious system)= salvation."
I agree with you that many Christians seem to think that simply by turning up at the church and crossing themselves they are saved. I don't think this is intentional ignorance, but it is certainly ignorant. I myself have taken to trying to tell people about this tragic error. But I don't see this as "the spirit of religion". I see it as a sad aspect of our religion. How people could get this so fundamentally wrong is beyond me; do we blame the church for incorrect teaching? Quite possibly. Do we blame the Chrisatians themselves for not grasping the core tenet of their very own religion? Or do we blame the religion for its adherents being too ignorant or stupid to understand that religion?
jlay wrote:Paul warned,
"Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh."
And quite right, too. Paul also says, in a nice early example of organised religion at work, "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought... 1 Corinthians 1: 10-11
Me too. So by knowing Christ and knowing the truth then one becomes a Christian. That's religion for ya!
jlay wrote:It is for this exact reason why I would not want to be known as just another religion. Becuase they are not all true, as we both know.
I know, but this doesn't negate the good that has come from these other religions.
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jlay
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Re: Why should I change myself from an Atheist to a Christia

Post by jlay »

Danny,
I've explained as you've asked. It is pretty obvious we have certain differences of opinion in this arena. Be glad to discuss if you want to start a thread. We could go on and on discussing the good and evil propagated by 'religion.' And we could go on about what is 'good,' what is the point of Christianity, etc. But, Doc started this thread, and this is only will take it further off topic. So, peace. Moving on.

The point of Christianity is not to make bad men good, but to make dead men live.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
DannyM
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Re: Why should I change myself from an Atheist to a Christia

Post by DannyM »

jlay wrote:Danny,
I've explained as you've asked. It is pretty obvious we have certain differences of opinion in this arena. Be glad to discuss if you want to start a thread. We could go on and on discussing the good and evil propagated by 'religion.' And we could go on about what is 'good,' what is the point of Christianity, etc. But, Doc started this thread, and this is only will take it further off topic. So, peace. Moving on.

The point of Christianity is not to make bad men good, but to make dead men live.
OK, thank you Jlay for the chat. When I get some quality time I may do that.

God bless
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Re: Why should I change myself from an Atheist to a Christia

Post by DocSir »

Thank you all for indulging me, you are all good people I'm sure and I'm glad that this post went off topic; it allows me to broaden my thought processes, which is why I came here in the first place. Good luck in whatever your ambitions may be.
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