I have decided, thank you so much

[ThankYou]

Surely you don't think I actually consider Hitler to be good, or a God. I was merely stating these things for the sake of argument. When we must compare man to God, why not choose one whom others consider a monster? Especially when the topic is mass murder.

Exactly, my first idea of mentioning hitler (and they do have a lot of similar attributes) - was to show you how you would deem those actions when given a proper context, the one you (well not you dirt-in-fries, THEM -.- ) would dare to think about.

[dirt-in-your-fries]

Genesis 5-8
5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Excellent quote. It's hard to really regret something if you knew the outcome all along, even before setting things in motion.

However, I suppose one might say this was all God's plan all along. Including the regret, troubled heart, and creating an imperfect world in which we still live. Perhaps God wishes us to live with this burden as some kind of a test. Perhaps he wishes us exactly as we are, imperfect and evil.

This is all based on the current Bible being absolutely true, of course, in every word.

[DannyM]

Genesis 5-8
5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

This is a very clear account, but definitly not the only one, god was mad on many occasions, it would be kind of impossible (and without even starting to think that something so perfect would get mad because of our poor actions), or a bit nuts to get mad for something you knew that was gonna happen, before the time even began (as a matter of fact, even better, to get mad at something you created and had definitive knowledge of its courses of action), right?

Again, this is very poor. You are sowing no logical contradiction - merely your ignorance. I'll try to help you. God knowing how his creation will act does not mean he would somehow refrain from be disappointed and angry at how his creation acts. How does this logically follow? Try to answer this.

[DannyM]

Surely you don't think I actually consider Hitler to be good, or a God. I was merely stating these things for the sake of argument. When we must compare man to God, why not choose one whom others consider a monster? Especially when the topic is mass murder.

Exactly, my first idea of mentioning hitler (and they do have a lot of similar attributes) - was to show you how you would deem those actions when given a proper context, the one you (well not you dirt-in-fries, THEM -.- ) would dare to think about.

My word you really do think you've given us a doozy! "Back to the drawing board" would be my suggestion.

[BavarianWheels]

First. Do you really not understand the difference between God and man? Let's just suppose that God exist, for the sake of discussion. Do you honestly think that man and God are equals? Do you really thing that the decisions of the uncreated, creator are able to be rightly judged under your scrutiny?

No, God and man are not equals.

So, God can do whatever he wants and we're not really allowed to consider his actions good or bad?

If you do not allow me to judge his actions, then at least you must allow me to think of him as a very conflicted entity by human standards. Doing one thing, then saying another. (If the Bible is to be taken as his word and its contents true, which is the basis of our discussion here.)

2ndly: Who said God would kill children just to send them to heaven? On what basis are you making this argument?

On a text I've read at godandscience.org, here. Here it is:

In some instances, God ordered the killing of entire populations, presumably including the killing of babies and children. Isn't God unrighteous in killing these innocent little ones? First of all, the Bible indicates that all people are sinners, including babies, and worthy of judgment. However, the Bible also indicates that children are incapable of making moral choices, so that they are automatically rewarded with heaven. So, in having babies killed, God is actually doing them a favor, since, if they had grown up opposed to God, they would have gone to hell.

He is killing them out of mercy. If he let them grow up, it seem they would've gone to hell. (I imagine all of them would, because if there was just a single baby out there who would've grown up to be not a sinner, God would surely tell the baby to flee before burning the city to the ground. Allow me a single joke in poor taste. ^^)

I have to question the sincerity and sanity of anyone who would ask if Hitler did good, and then compare him to God.

Surely you don't think I actually consider Hitler to be good, or a God. I was merely stating these things for the sake of argument. When we must compare man to God, why not choose one whom others consider a monster? Especially when the topic is mass murder.

On the point of babies/children being innocent and go straight to heaven, as a Christian I hope that is the case however we are not told this is the case. What we are told is that ALL HUMANITY is stained with sin and ALL without Christ are lost. We must assume that while the notion is harsh, we don't know for sure. The only thing we do know is that God is Just.

If a baby can be saved without Christ, then why can't an adult have the same chance? Afterall, are we all born into sin by choice?

I lean to the side that aborted/killed/murdered babies and very young children are lost, (depending on their parents faith has a slight tug on me too, but that still isn't definite) but leaning to that side, I also put that in God's hands and I KNOW when I find out their outcome, I will acknowledge that HIS JUSTICE was/is served.
.
.

[dirt-in-your-fries]

You cannot imagine such a thing. Hitler is merely a man. Your question is useless. I'll ask you if you can imagine something relevant: do you imagine Hitler would have such 'honourable' motives?

Yes, I can imagine Hitler having such "honourable" motives. (I'm not saying he would, but am admitting the possibility.) I can't really say I knew the man. I know him only as history depicts him. Surely you admit the possibility that he might kill children out of mercy if he knew he was doing them a favour, just as God had done.

Also I note you've placed the word honourable under quotation marks. Are you saying slaughtering children with the prior absolute knowledge that they would go to hell is not an honourable thing to do, considering the fact that by killing them you're sending them to heaven?

It is common among irrational atheists - I do not know what you are yet.

I don't see how my definition of myself has anything to do with the subject at hand. You read me as I write, and come to know me through my arguments. Whether I'm gay, jewish, muslim or a rapist, my arguments remain the same. Only the ultimate agenda changes - and only maybe. But we're not concerned with that.

No. If God knows you'll choose to become an attorney this simply means he knows how you will choose. He knows you may go through many aqn agonising choice; but him knowing this does nothing to hinder your free will in choosing whatever you choose to do with your life.

So, I can choose not to be a lawyer? Wouldn't that make God's predictions of me being a lawyer wrong?

If my girlfriend gets offered 1 million pounds a year to stay on in her high-powered job, I know she'll resist the advances of the Headhunter and stay on in her job. Is her free will somehow negated simply because I know what she'll do?

I see you are comparing your knowledge with that of a God. I hope you don't consider our regular daily predictions about people the same as God's. God's predictions are ultimate. Ours our only educated guesses which might not come true.

Did God create the best possible world for his intentions? Does God foreknowing the choices of every individual negate their free will? If yes then can you show me how?

The first question I can't know the answer to, since I can only guess at God's intentions. If truly he is as powerful as you claim, then he must've done the best job he could. Right?

What I'm trying to say is that if God knows the future, then yes - we do not have free will! We only imagine we have. We go about our daily lives, making choices and choices and choices, completely voluntary. We know we are making them, we know we could just as easily decide to do the opposite of what we plan to do. But whatever we do, ultimately it's all been predicted by God eons before. If truly things are set in stone and our future predetermined, how can our free will be anything but a figment of our imaginations? Whatever I do now, whatever choice I make, I will die at the young age od 32 in a car accident. God knows this. Is this not all the proof you need of fate? Whatever I do, I cannot change my destiny: to end up beneath the wheels of a drunk driver.

[ThankYou]

Genesis 5-8
5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

This is a very clear account, but definitly not the only one, god was mad on many occasions, it would be kind of impossible (and without even starting to think that something so perfect would get mad because of our poor actions), or a bit nuts to get mad for something you knew that was gonna happen, before the time even began (as a matter of fact, even better, to get mad at something you created and had definitive knowledge of its courses of action), right?

Again, this is very poor. You are sowing no logical contradiction - merely your ignorance. I'll try to help you. God knowing how his creation will act does not mean he would somehow refrain from be disappointed and angry at how his creation acts. How does this logically follow? Try to answer this.

Well, i would love to, but i have just received a warning from admin. apparently it states in this board rules that it's purpose is only to confine christians, and offer them answers, no other questioning allowed.

Although i have stated, and would like to repeat, that , if proven to be wrong, i will gladly go back to christianity. But i assume you won't believe me, and to be honest, my first idea for coming here was because i was a bit shocked (and scared) to come across this web page, and a bit enraged for misquoting scientific evidence (since i am soon to be some kind of a scientist myself).

But, to not left this unanswered (and quite frankly, for being a bit allergic to all of this inferiority you are trying to encumber me with), let me give you a definition for word regret:

Regret is a negative conscious and emotional reaction to personal past acts and behaviors. Regret is often felt when someone feels sadness, shame, embarrassment, depression, annoyance or guilt after committing an action or actions that the person later wishes that he or she had not done. ...

I think it's pretty obvious from here.

With that, i do believe i am leaving this board, i see no purpose in staying without the ability to express my opinion, or to be a part of board which openly states it's biasness and onesidedness (lol, what a word).

[jlay]

That is the board founder's ideas. IMHO, not a position that is defended in the scriptures. And not one I, or many others that post here share. If you want to discuss this, then I am the wrong one to discuss it with, because it is not my position, nor do I think it is the position of the scriptures themselves.

It is impossible for God to murder. You need to first define murder. If a man hunts down and kills a deer, did he murder? Nope. If I erradicate an ant hill from my front yard, did I murder? No.

So, God can do whatever he wants and we're not really allowed to consider his actions good or bad?

Technically, yes. God can do whatever He wants. It's really just that simple. Does He? That's another matter. If God is, then what are we? An ant farm? Not even that. Why do you assume that human life has value to God. I believe it does, but on what basis do you judge it to have value. If God created the universe, that means the entire cosmos from nothing, then what kind of being are we dealing with here? Regardless of how life got here, we know that man is nothing more than a piece of dust on a spec, floating around what is one of a billion stars. If God made it from nothing, then what does returning it to nothing matter?

Now. I believe that God does value life. And that his taking it through these means does not negate his goodness, but in fact confirms it. You are hopeless to do anything but try to bring THE GOD down to the position of man. It's faulty from the get go. There is no way for you to judge God. If so, by what standard do you do so? You can get frustrated all you want. It doesn't change reality. You can make assumptions and conclusions. It doesn't mean you are qualified. You can complain, object, and think of God whatever your heart desires. The problem is that you are starting from the very biased position that your opinion matters. Now, coming from the worldview you hold, which I would assume is atheistic, on what grounds do you hold that your opinion has value. What intrinisic value does life hold?

[zoegirl]

Who is the message board intended for?
This message board is publicly open to anyone who wishes to register, and participate in discussions, however it is only intended for a specific audience. It is intended to serve as a place for:

1. Sincere seekers to inquire and ask questions;
2. Christians to give and receive encouragement and instruction; and
3. Non-Christians who are willing to "walk a thin line" and dialogue sensitively and respectfully.

This board is not for those who have strongly made up their mind that Christ is "not" for them; who merely wish to put down, debate, and argue against essential Christian beliefs. As such, those who are Christian, have not made up their minds, or desire civil discussions about Christianity are encouraged to join, while others who merely wish to attack and try to discredit Christianity are discouraged and will be heavily moderated.

Well, i would love to, but i have just received a warning from admin. apparently it states in this board rules that it's purpose is only to confine christians, and offer them answers, no other questioning allowed.

Would you care to read them again?? The issue is primarily one of your attitude in your posts. We have had several atheists post here and they are welcome to, if their goal is to dialogue respectfully and understand that primarily ours is a support and encouragement discussion board.

[DannyM]

Yes, I can imagine Hitler having such "honourable" motives. (I'm not saying he would, but am admitting the possibility.) I can't really say I knew the man. I know him only as history depicts him. Surely you admit the possibility that he might kill children out of mercy if he knew he was doing them a favour, just as God had done.

No. We know Hitle's character - we know he was bad. We know he had no honour. So unless you are deluded and immune to popular knowledge then you are being pretty ridiculous. With what you know of Hitler and his regime you could not possibly imagine a fairy-tale story in place of the horrors of his reign. If you think you can then can you describe to me how you think it could have all been so different? How could this menace have taken such an 'honourable' turn for the 'better'.

Also I note you've placed the word honourable under quotation marks. Are you saying slaughtering children with the prior absolute knowledge that they would go to hell is not an honourable thing to do, considering the fact that by killing them you're sending them to heaven?

I'm quoting because we are quite obviously differing over what is and isn't honourable. Ya see?

I don't see how my definition of myself has anything to do with the subject at hand. You read me as I write, and come to know me through my arguments. Whether I'm gay, jewish, muslim or a rapist, my arguments remain the same. Only the ultimate agenda changes - and only maybe. But we're not concerned with that.

I merely said I do not know what you are yet in reference to irrational atheists. Chill out champ!

So, I can choose not to be a lawyer? Wouldn't that make God's predictions of me being a lawyer wrong?

Sure you can!

If my girlfriend gets offered 1 million pounds a year to stay on in her high-powered job, I know she'll resist the advances of the Headhunter and stay on in her job. Is her free will somehow negated simply because I know what she'll do?

I see you are comparing your knowledge with that of a God. I hope you don't consider our regular daily predictions about people the same as God's. God's predictions are ultimate. Ours our only educated guesses which might not come true.

Nope. I simply know what she'd do. God does know ultimately, but this does not affect the process of my girl choosing for rational and practical thought. You need to show me how we have a negation of the freedom to choose...

Did God create the best possible world for his intentions? Does God foreknowing the choices of every individual negate their free will? If yes then can you show me how?

The first question I can't know the answer to, since I can only guess at God's intentions. If truly he is as powerful as you claim, then he must've done the best job he could. Right?

No! You need to show a logical contradiction in God creating the best possible world for his intentions and God's omnipotence ... there is no link here!

What I'm trying to say is that if God knows the future, then yes - we do not have free will! We only imagine we have. We go about our daily lives, making choices and choices and choices, completely voluntary. We know we are making them, we know we could just as easily decide to do the opposite of what we plan to do. But whatever we do, ultimately it's all been predicted by God eons before. If truly things are set in stone and our future predetermined, how can our free will be anything but a figment of our imaginations? Whatever I do now, whatever choice I make, I will die at the young age od 32 in a car accident. God knows this. Is this not all the proof you need of fate? Whatever I do, I cannot change my destiny: to end up beneath the wheels of a drunk driver.

You've kind of made my point for me - thanks. You are aware that you are making voluntary choices. Are you saying you are unhappy at being an attorney even though you are very happy that you have chosen to be an attorney because it sets you on a path to providing for yourself and your family and happiness and grabbing that Audi A6? Are you questioning your own powers of rational thought and are resigned to being a mere grab bag impersonal chemicals? And you believe that a God that doesn't exist is directing this grab bag of impersonal chemicals? I'm not sure what or who you're speaking against or why.

[ThankYou]

Who is the message board intended for?
This message board is publicly open to anyone who wishes to register, and participate in discussions, however it is only intended for a specific audience. It is intended to serve as a place for:

1. Sincere seekers to inquire and ask questions;
2. Christians to give and receive encouragement and instruction; and
3. Non-Christians who are willing to "walk a thin line" and dialogue sensitively and respectfully.

This board is not for those who have strongly made up their mind that Christ is "not" for them; who merely wish to put down, debate, and argue against essential Christian beliefs. As such, those who are Christian, have not made up their minds, or desire civil discussions about Christianity are encouraged to join, while others who merely wish to attack and try to discredit Christianity are discouraged and will be heavily moderated.

Well, i would love to, but i have just received a warning from admin. apparently it states in this board rules that it's purpose is only to confine christians, and offer them answers, no other questioning allowed.

Would you care to read them again?? The issue is primarily one of your attitude in your posts. We have had several atheists post here and they are welcome to, if there goal is to dialogue respectfully and understand that primarily ours is a support and encouragement discussion board.

Why disallow debating from those who strongly disagree with Christian beliefs?

i strongly disagree with some Christian beliefs. And i strongly believe that christians should be allowed to participate in jewish board.

also, there is this part

This board is a Christian home, and so while very open to sincere and honest questions, it is "not" a place where others of differing beliefs can promote their opinions while throwing any argument and complaint they can find against Christianity.

i am (apparently) of differing belief, and i 'm obviously promoting my opinion (though i'm not selling any books), and am throwing arguments and complaints which i thought of and that are against Christianity.

[cslewislover]

I'll be back shortly to deal with this. From what I've seen so far, the criticisms are invalid. None of us are perfect, but the criticisms are far over-board. Christians condemn murder . . . where do you get your info from? Not from here regarding that issue. If you think we approve of murder, then you're interpreting things through your own biased eyes.

[DannyM]

Genesis 5-8
5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

This is a very clear account, but definitly not the only one, god was mad on many occasions, it would be kind of impossible (and without even starting to think that something so perfect would get mad because of our poor actions), or a bit nuts to get mad for something you knew that was gonna happen, before the time even began (as a matter of fact, even better, to get mad at something you created and had definitive knowledge of its courses of action), right?

Again, this is very poor. You are sowing no logical contradiction - merely your ignorance. I'll try to help you. God knowing how his creation will act does not mean he would somehow refrain from be disappointed and angry at how his creation acts. How does this logically follow? Try to answer this.

Well, i would love to, but i have just received a warning from admin. apparently it states in this board rules that it's purpose is only to confine christians, and offer them answers, no other questioning allowed.

Although i have stated, and would like to repeat, that , if proven to be wrong, i will gladly go back to christianity. But i assume you won't believe me, and to be honest, my first idea for coming here was because i was a bit shocked (and scared) to come across this web page, and a bit enraged for misquoting scientific evidence (since i am soon to be some kind of a scientist myself).

But, to not left this unanswered (and quite frankly, for being a bit allergic to all of this inferiority you are trying to encumber me with), let me give you a definition for word regret:

Regret is a negative conscious and emotional reaction to personal past acts and behaviors. Regret is often felt when someone feels sadness, shame, embarrassment, depression, annoyance or guilt after committing an action or actions that the person later wishes that he or she had not done. ...

I think it's pretty obvious from here.

With that, i do believe i am leaving this board, i see no purpose in staying without the ability to express my opinion, or to be a part of board which openly states it's biasness and onesidedness (lol, what a word).

Well I'm sure in the time it took to type the above you could have priovided me with what I asked. Providing you had something. I am sure that if you had kicked things off in an inquisitive but friendly manner then we could have had a ball.

[zoegirl]

You are certainly welcome to ask questions, but we would certainly be thought rude and bordering on obnoxious to start a thread on a Muslim site with the same attitude you had in your OP.

Just understand the purpose and the rules of discussion and this won't be an issue.

[DannyM]

I'll be back shortly to deal with this. From what I've seen so far, the criticisms are invalid. None of us are perfect, but the criticisms are far over-board. Christians condemn murder . . . where do you get your info from? Not from here regarding that issue. If you think we approve of murder, then you're interpreting things through your own biased eyes.

Not to mention the "horror" when coming across this 'evil' site - what a nasty bunch we are! I do love the dramatics and histrionics of the confused...