IQ and religion

[ThankYou]

How would you explain these other researches, that are not based on countries: (note that there are some (though a vast minority) that show what you would like)

i particulary like no.1 in "high iq groups"

Oh, and please don't make a mistake to conclude from this research that being religious makes you dumb. It only shows that being intelligent makes you have a huge tendency to becoming non-religious. (as a matter of fact, it proves that you can be both religious and very intelligent - just not too likely)

STUDIES OF STUDENTS

1. Thomas Howells, 1927
Study of 461 students showed religiously conservative students "are, in general, relatively inferior in intellectual ability."

2. Hilding Carlsojn, 1933
Study of 215 students showed that "there is a tendency for the more intelligent undergraduate to be sympathetic toward… atheism."

3. Abraham Franzblau, 1934
Confirming Howells and Carlson, tested 354 Jewish children, aged 10-16. Found a negative correlation between religiosity and IQ as measured by the Terman intelligence test.

4. Thomas Symington, 1935
Tested 400 young people in colleges and church groups. He reported, "There is a constant positive relation in all the groups between liberal religious thinking and mental ability… There is also a constant positive relation between liberal scores and intelligence…"

5. Vernon Jones, 1938
Tested 381 students, concluding "a slight tendency for intelligence and liberal attitudes to go together."

6. A. R. Gilliland, 1940
At variance with all other studies, found "little or no relationship between intelligence and attitude toward god."

7. Donald Gragg, 1942
Reported an inverse correlation between 100 ACE freshman test scores and Thurstone "reality of god" scores.

8. Brown and Love, 1951
At the University of Denver, tested 613 male and female students. The mean test scores of non-believers was 119 points, and for believers it was 100. The non-believers ranked in the 80th percentile, and believers in the 50th. Their findings "strongly corroborate those of Howells."

9. Michael Argyle, 1958
Concluded that "although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs."

10. Jeffrey Hadden, 1963
Found no correlation between intelligence and grades. This was an anomalous finding, since GPA corresponds closely with intelligence. Other factors may have influenced the results at the University of Wisconsin.

11. Young, Dustin and Holtzman, 1966
Average religiosity decreased as GPA rose.

12. James Trent, 1967
Polled 1400 college seniors. Found little difference, but high-ability students in his sample group were over-represented.

13. C. Plant and E. Minium, 1967
The more intelligent students were less religious, both before entering college and after 2 years of college.

14. Robert Wuthnow, 1978
Of 532 students, 37 percent of Christians, 58 percent of apostates, and 53 percent of non-religious scored above average on SATs.

15. Hastings and Hoge, 1967, 1974
Polled 200 college students and found no significant correlations.

16. Norman Poythress, 1975
Mean SATs for strongly antireligious (1148), moderately anti-religious (1119), slightly antireligious (1108), and religious (1022).

17. Wiebe and Fleck, 1980
Studied 158 male and female Canadian university students. They reported "nonreligious S's tended to be strongly intelligent" and "more intelligent than religious S's."

STUDENT BODY COMPARISONS

1. Rose Goldsen, 1952
Percentage of students who believe in a divine god: Harvard 30; UCLA 32; Dartmouth 35; Yale 36; Cornell 42; Wayne 43; Weslyan 43; Michigan 45; Fisk 60; Texas 62; North Carolina 68.

2. National Review Study, 1970
Percentage of students who believe in a Spirit or Divine God: Reed 15; Brandeis 25; Sarah Lawrence 28; Williams 36; Stanford 41; Boston U. 41; Yale 42; Howard 47; Indiana 57; Davidson 59; S. Carolina 65; Marquette 77.

3. Caplovitz and Sherrow, 1977
Apostasy rates rose continuously from 5 percent in "low" ranked schools to 17 percent in "high" ranked schools.

4. Niemi, Ross, and Alexander, 1978
In elite schools, organized religion was judged important by only 26 percent of their students, compared with 44 percent of all students.

STUDIES OF VERY-HIGH IQ GROUPS

1. Terman, 1959
Studied group with IQ's over 140. Of men, 10 percent held strong religious belief, of women 18 percent. Sixty-two percent of men and 57 percent of women claimed "little religious inclination" while 28 percent of the men and 23 percent of the women claimed it was "not at all important."

2. Warren and Heist, 1960
Found no differences among National Merit Scholars. Results may have been effected by the fact that NM scholars are not selected on the basis of intelligence or grades alone, but also on "leadership" and such like.

3. Southern and Plant, 1968
Studied 42 male and 30 female members of Mensa. Mensa members were much less religious in belief than the typical American college alumnus or adult.

STUDIES Of SCIENTISTS

1. William S. Ament, 1927
C. C. Little, president of the University of Michigan, checked persons listed in Who's Who in America: "Unitarians, Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Universalists, and Presbyterians [who are less religious] are… far more numerous in Who's Who than would be expected on the basis of the population which they form. Baptists, Methodists, and Catholics are distinctly less numerous."

Ament confirmed Little's conclusion. He noted that Unitarians, the least religious, were more than 40 times as numerous in Who's Who as in the U.S. population.

2. Lehman and Witty, 1931
Identified 1189 scientists found in both Who's Who (1927) and American Men of Science (1927). Only 25 percent of those listed in the latter and 50 percent of those in the former reported their religious denomination, despite the specific request to do so, under the heading of "religious denomination (if any)." Well over 90 percent of the general population claims religious affiliation. The figure of 25 percent suggests far less religiosity among scientists.

Unitarians were 81.4 times as numerous among eminent scientists as non-Unitarians.

3. Kelley and Fisk, 1951
Found a negative (-.39) correlation between the strength of religious values and research competence. [How these were measured is unknown.]

4. Ann Roe, 1953
Interviewed 64 "eminent scientists, nearly all members of the prestigious National Academy of Sciences or the American Philosophical Society. She reported that, while nearly all of them had religious parents and had attended Sunday school, 'now only three of these men are seriously active in church. A few others attend upon occasion, or even give some financial support to a church which they do not attend… All the others have long since dismissed religion as any guide to them, and the church plays no part in their lives… A few are militantly atheistic, but most are just not interested.'"

5. Francis Bello, 1954
Interviewed or questionnaired 107 nonindustrial scientists under the age of 40 judged by senior colleagues to be outstanding. Of the 87 responses, 45 percent claimed to be "agnostic or atheistic" and an additional 22 percent claimed no religious affiliation. For 20 most eminent, "the proportion who are now a-religious is considerably higher than in the entire survey group."

6. Jack Chambers, 1964
Questionnaired 740 US psychologists and chemists. He reported, "The highly creative men… significantly more often show either no preference for a particular religion or little or no interest in religion." Found that the most eminent psychologists showed 40 percent no preference, 16 percent for the most eminent chemists.

7. Vaughan, Smith, and Sjoberg, 1965
Polled 850 US physicists, zoologists, chemical engineers, and geologists listed in American Men of Science (1955) on church membership, and attendance patterns, and belief in afterlife. Of the 642 replies, 38.5 percent did not believe in an afterlife, whereas 31.8 percent did. Belief in immortality was less common among major university staff than among those employed by business, government, or minor universities. The Gallup poll taken about this time showed that two-thirds of the U.S. population believed in an afterlife, so scientists were far less religious than the typical adult.

[zoegirl]

Before continuing, thank you, you should read the board purposes and guidelines here. We are not here to be attacked and we are not here for a personal punching bag. So far your posts have been aggressive and bordering on obnoxious. Please think through whether this board is for you.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... f=6&t=2517

[BavarianWheels]

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Define "Intellectual Inferiority/Superiority"

With the vast majority of the world of Science ridding itself of any person showing a leaning to I.D. or Creationism or even the mention in passing, it's no wonder those are the results of these "stats".
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[Gabrielman]

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Define "Intellectual Inferiority/Superiority"

With the vast majority of the world of Science ridding itself of any person showing a leaning to I.D. or Creationism or even the mention in passing, it's no wonder those are the results of these "stats".
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Yes, that is all they can do, get rid of scientists who believe in God because they fear what might happen, that is to say, faith may catch on in the supposed "Intelligent" circle. They fear God, and what He implies. I think the documentary Expelled is a good example of what you are saying.

[cslewislover]

Oh no!!!! God made me stupid!


Yes, my experience with "Academia" is that Christians are not tolerated. The majority belittle Christians, so it's not surprising that through time (like in the last 125 years, at least), this attitude has steadily increased. It looks like people like the OP can't see other variables and such . . . real smart.

[BavarianWheels]

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Define "Intellectual Inferiority/Superiority"

With the vast majority of the world of Science ridding itself of any person showing a leaning to I.D. or Creationism or even the mention in passing, it's no wonder those are the results of these "stats".
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Yes, that is all they can do, get rid of scientists who believe in God because they fear what might happen, that is to say, faith may catch on in the supposed "Intelligent" circle. They fear God, and what He implies. I think the documentary Expelled is a good example of what you are saying.

In today's thinking, many, if not all, historical scientists would be shelved as "intellectually inferior".
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[smiley]

It's interesting to note that atheism is such a wonderful philosophy that these more intelligent, very law-abiding people are also less healthy, have fewer children, less satisfying sex, more divorces, are more likely to commit suicide, more likely to be depressed or addicted, and live shorter lives.

[cslewislover]

It's interesting to note that atheism is such a wonderful philosophy that these more intelligent, very law-abiding people are also less healthy, have fewer children, less satisfying sex, more divorces, are more likely to commit suicide, more likely to be depressed or addicted, and live shorter lives.

Yes, it just goes to show that "intelligence" isn't just about these man-made markers (IQ tests and such).

[Kristoffer]

It's interesting to note that atheism is such a wonderful philosophy that these more intelligent, very law-abiding people are also less healthy, have fewer children, less satisfying sex, more divorces, are more likely to commit suicide, more likely to be depressed or addicted, and live shorter lives.

This is propoganda. Sweden is a EXTREMELY secular country, we live longer here, what is wrong with having fewer children? HOW CAN YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT? DO YOU OBSERVE THEM? also the statistics of divorce say OTHERWISE thank you. WHY ARE THEY MORE LIKELY TO COMMIT SUICIDE, BE DEPRESSED/ADDICTED/LIVE SHORTER LIVES.[Citation Needed]

I think you miss a point, GOD MUST LOVE SWEDEN, it is the SICK(religious people are the sinners?) who need the doctor. God obviously is staying away from Sweden because of how prosperous and moral we are, that is a god I can respect.

Let me just say, most of that stuff is not true unless you show me the source of your information, not directly from god surely? I will give you a chance to prove these unfounded accusations. Go ahead.

Ps i do not hate god. He can be the highest ideal

Also, what is wrong with abiding the law? You are not saying that you murdered and god forgave you are you?

[cslewislover]

Also, what is wrong with abiding the law? You are not saying that you murdered and god forgave you are you?

There's nothing wrong with it, it's just that atheists like to say how great they are all of the time . . . it's so funny. They come on and talk about how morality is relative, so, in the end, how can any laws be justified? If they can't be justified, then why talk about how you're law-abiding one (why would it matter?)? People often break the law, or act unethically, in secret, so who would know anyhow? Do you think that a person should not be forgiven if the commit murder? Why make fun of it?

And what you say about Sweden is is just strange and funny. Sweden may be full of ethical, moral people - I don't know - but God is concerned about all people. We are ALL sinners, so, Sweden has just as many as anywhere else. Lol. In the bible, Jesus said that if you think about having sex with someone other than your wife, then that's the same as actually committing adultery. Very few people can get past that one. None of us are perfect, and we all sin.

Maybe Smiley will come back with some references, but I've read of what he's presented elsewhere. The studies probably apply to the US, but I can't say for sure.

[Kristoffer]

if you don't obey the law you get a fine/go to jail, no-one wants a fine. That's how it works. Well by those rules I haven't done any adultery, I am an atheist (sort of) are you surprised? Although I see no problem with sex before marriage, sex IS marriage.(in a way it is humans I think are kind of animals that bond for life...)

Anyway when I am ready for such a commitment I would be interested, maybe when i'm thirty five and promoted to be the big boss.

People often break the law, or act unethically, in secret, so who would know anyhow?

Hmm, Noone. Well unless god is watching EVERYTHING but that would be very orwellian to me. I think the guilt is worse, when you know that forgiveness is earned and not given out so easily as Kristus seems to.

It really depends on how you spin statistics, there are various mathematic tricks that can be employed to make things say stuff different to what they actually mean. ANYWAY i digress...First result on google search has the goods:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

[cslewislover]

Here's a recent article that, while it doesn't give references to other studies, mentions them; I didn't look up the Wall Street Journal article cited. Studies (note, plural) do indeed indicate that "religious" people have a higher percent of happy marriages and are less likely to divorce.

http://www.urbanchristiannews.com/ucn/2 ... eason.html

Apparently, divorce rates have been going down in recent years. In any case, it's very sad, yes, that the divorce rates of "Christians" is as high as it is. From what I know, a lot of people who are "Christian" don't really act like it! I have experience with quite a few "Christians" who just really have messed with me, and I can't see their behavior as "Christian." We all make mistakes, and I'm not talking about people who seem to have just made a mistake . . .

[narnia4]

I can't believe how often this comes up in arguments about religion (or sadly, I think I can). Of course it doesn't prove any of the arguments for atheism or disprove any Christian claims, it's mostly used to try to point out how silly and inferior all of us religious folk are. Of course many secularists will just laugh when you point out that secularism has been pushed onto people at universities and schools. I don't want to say that ALL universities do this, but unfortunately it is undeniable (imo) that there is an anti-religious and, specifically, anti-Christian sentiment in many institues of higher learning and intellectual circles. If places of learning are teaching a secular worldview, how can we be surprised if graduates turn out to be secularists? It's to be expected.

Also, "Christian" is a cultural label, "atheist" isn't. I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I think it's a fair bet to say that the more educated a person is, the more likely that person is to label himself accurately. I'm sure those those who call themselves "molinists" are on average more intelligent than those who call themselves "Christians". For this and many other similar reasons, I don't think that these stats are reliable or worth the worry. All this is without mentioning that all IQ tests do, or have ever done, is show who's better at taking IQ tests.

Finally, hundreds of years ago most great scientists were Christians. Let's assume that most great scientists today are atheists? What proof is there really that this is the end of the road and there won't be a return to Christianity among scientists? Imo, Christians are doing much, much better at the intellectual scene overall than they were say 50 years ago. As Rich has said in some of the articles on this site, the evidence now really is stronger than it was in the past. It will take time for the tide to turn of course, but I'm fairly confident that Christianity isn't dying out any time soon.

[Kristoffer]

Actually secularism isn't about pushing any particular "spiritual high", so farm from pushed on. It Just happens to be that there is a STRONG correlation between amount of education and non-religiosity. So they are not teaching a world-view, it happens to be coincidental, having faith as a scientist can in some sense's be viewed as normal, but complaining about how universities "teach" secularism, is a joke. To be separate from god doesn't need to be taught it comes very easily.

Ps. Did you go to university, what degree/qualification did you get, can you verify your qualification, if not then do not presume to know what the demographics of such a system is actually like. The people are diverse and the teaching varied, It just so happens that at a university you have to "put up" with all sorts, I even had to deal with some annoying Evangelicals.

[narnia4]

Actually secularism isn't about pushing any particular "spiritual high", so farm from pushed on. It Just happens to be that there is a STRONG correlation between amount of education and non-religiosity. So they are not teaching a world-view, it happens to be coincidental, having faith as a scientist can in some sense's be viewed as normal, but complaining about how universities "teach" secularism, is a joke. To be separate from god doesn't need to be taught it comes very easily.

Ps. Did you go to university, what degree/qualification did you get, can you verify your qualification, if not then do not presume to know what the demographics of such a system is actually like. The people are diverse and the teaching varied, It just so happens that at a university you have to "put up" with all sorts, I even had to deal with some annoying Evangelicals.

Everything that is taught is part of a world view. Everybody HAS a world view. Unless a professor makes a distinct attempt to put aside his personal views, they're going to come out in what he says. Unless a professor makes the greatest effort possible to present two sides of an argument, he's probably going to be presenting his own case in his class. OF COURSE they're teaching either their own world view or the one described in the text book. For example, I am going to a university. It's amazing how varied and contradictory the things you're taught from class to class really are. One world view is pushed in sociology, a completely different one in economics. I'm not even saying it's done consciously, but it's inevitable.

With all that said, there are many, many Christians who could tell you stories about being attacked and/or ridiculed in a science or philosophy class. It doesn't happen everywhere, but it happens. At the university I attend you really wouldn't notice it, a few professors had a world view that fit nicely with Christianity. Some of my friends haven't had quite as nice a time, have been openly attacked.