question about climate change and the Bible

[cubeus19]

I'm very concerned currently about climate change, not as much as far as what can be done about it but how it effects the case for God's existence, Christian theism, and eschatology. I'm specifically nervous about articles like these...

http://www.helium.com/items/1883768-hum ... me-extinct

And since I come from an evangelical mind set that takes the more popular view of eschatology such as the rise of the antichrist, the one world government, a final climatic world war and the like I don't know if the scenario that's offered in that article matches up well with the Bible's and if this article's scenario is correct and the sun scorches us off the planet and causes us to run out of food and water I'm concerned that this could also show that the God of the Bible is not real since clearly this is not how he chooses to bring an end to the world. The only possible out I could see is this is how God chooses to "destroy the world by fire", but it still just doesn't seem to fit right with even the most liberal interpretations of Revelation. Have any of you all given much thought to how catastrophic climate change effects Biblical eschatology and thus effect the case for God's existence and the validity of Christian theism? If so, how do you think this would fit well in Biblical eschatology?

[DannyM]

I'm very concerned currently about climate change, not as much as far as what can be done about it but how it effects the case for God's existence, Christian theism, and eschatology. I'm specifically nervous about articles like these...

http://www.helium.com/items/1883768-hum ... me-extinct

And since I come from an evangelical mind set that takes the more popular view of eschatology such as the rise of the antichrist, the one world government, a final climatic world war and the like I don't know if the scenario that's offered in that article matches up well with the Bible's and if this article's scenario is correct and the sun scorches us off the planet and causes us to run out of food and water I'm concerned that this could also show that the God of the Bible is not real since clearly this is not how he chooses to bring an end to the world. The only possible out I could see is this is how God chooses to "destroy the world by fire", but it still just doesn't seem to fit right with even the most liberal interpretations of Revelation. Have any of you all given much thought to how catastrophic climate change effects Biblical eschatology and thus effect the case for God's existence and the validity of Christian theism? If so, how do you think this would fit well in Biblical eschatology?

Forgive me for skirting your link for the time being, but your opening sentence really caught my eye. Why are you concerned about climate change?

Danny
-
-

[cubeus19]

I'll be happy to answer that, I'm concerned mostly because it's so darn hot outside right now, I know it's summer but this is record setting heat for most parts of the US right now and I've been told by the news articles and science articles that it will get even hotter in the next few years to come, this record heat we are feeling now is nothing compared to what's comming later (at least according to them and I hope they are miscalculating things but of course, I'm not as qualified as they are), and I just don't like the idea of scorching to death. Not to mention, I'm afraid the doomsday scenairo that's presented by many scientists doesn't line up with the prophicies in Revelation. Instead of people gradually scorching to death and running out of food and water, the Bible seems to indicate that God will personally and supernaturally destroy the earth with fire either from space or by supernatural forces. I hope theologians and apologists are putting their heads together to work out a good response to this because this may pose problems for our worldview. I hope it doesn't, that's one of the main reasons why I'm asking you all for your help.

[DannyM]

I'll be happy to answer that, I'm concerned mostly because it's so darn hot outside right now, I know it's summer but this is record setting heat for most parts of the US right now and I've been told by the news articles and science articles that it will get even hotter in the next few years to come, this record heat we are feeling now is nothing compared to what's comming later (at least according to them and I hope they are miscalculating things but of course, I'm not as qualified as they are), and I just don't like the idea of scorching to death. Not to mention, I'm afraid the doomsday scenairo that's presented by many scientists doesn't line up with the prophicies in Revelation. Instead of people gradually scorching to death and running out of food and water, the Bible seems to indicate that God will personally and supernaturally destroy the earth with fire either from space or by supernatural forces. I hope theologians and apologists are putting their heads together to work out a good response to this because this may pose problems for our worldview. I hope it doesn't, that's one of the main reasons why I'm asking you all for your help.

Really? I do not mean to be flippant, but can you offer me any links to show that the world climate is heating up to any significant degree right now? Or are you possibly getting carried away with the quaisi-science that we in the UK are rapidly becoming immune to?

Danny

[Kristoffer]

I wouldn't be so doubtful, have you been to denmark? That country is almost 30% land that has been reclaimed by the sea. They need flood defences now and the amount of times flood defence for instance on the Thames river (england) has been used is increasing, so it does point towards something. Weather or not we should really all be worried is another matter.

[cubeus19]

[/quote]

Really? I do not mean to be flippant, but can you offer me any links to show that the world climate is heating up to any significant degree right now? Or are you possibly getting carried away with the quaisi-science that we in the UK are rapidly becoming immune to?

Danny[/quote]


Well I hope that the science that is being used is indeed quaisi-science like you are referring to because I certainly don't want this stuff to be backed up by strong data, but as you know, many of these articles claim to be backed up by such data. But just for the sake of this discussion, let's pretend that there is some truth to these claims and the climate is indeed rising to such dramatic proportions what would that do to Christian theism and to Biblical eschatology? That is the area I'm having issues with. Could we focus on that briefly and then go back to whether or not these scientific claims are quaisi-scientific because I do want to see what evidence you have that shows that to be the case, I certainly hope you are right.

[DannyM]

I wouldn't be so doubtful, have you been to denmark? That country is almost 30% land that has been reclaimed by the sea. They need flood defences now and the amount of times flood defence for instance on the Thames river (england) has been used is increasing, so it does point towards something. Weather or not we should really all be worried is another matter.

Never heard of denmark, Sorry.

[DannyM]

Well I hope that the science that is being used is indeed quaisi-science like you are referring to because I certainly don't want this stuff to be backed up by strong data, but as you know, many of these articles claim to be backed up by such data. But just for the sake of this discussion, let's pretend that there is some truth to these claims and the climate is indeed rising to such dramatic proportions what would that do to Christian theism and to Biblical eschatology? That is the area I'm having issues with. Could we focus on that briefly and then go back to whether or not these scientific claims are quaisi-scientific because I do want to see what evidence you have that shows that to be the case, I certainly hope you are right.

Again, I am asking you for the data to show that the world is warming up. Then I will produce.

[cubeus19]

Ok, here are some weblinks that give pretty good evidence that the world is warming. Two of these are from secular sources and the others are from this very website and from what many consider the sister site to God and Science, Reasons to Believe...

http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

http://blogs.ajc.com/cynthia-tucker/201 ... hia_tucker

http://www.reasons.org/global-warming-h ... ly-need-be

http://www.reasons.org/global-warming-0

http://www.godandscience.org/ppt/Climategate.html

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... rming.html


Also, from my own personal experience, where I live we are currently in a record setting heat wave, the whole eastern half of the US are experiencing temperatures in the high 90s and low 100s and typically this isn't the hottest point of the year it usually is worse in mid and late August. And if you do a search on any meterology website or the weather section of any local news website you will see that in most cases this year we have had record setting highs for each month and record high lows as well. So if you can please show me that this evidence is either wrong or misleading. I personally hope it is, becasue I don't like the implications if indeed this is happening and will get out of hand. Now many people think doing something about it will help, but currently I'm under the same impression of professor Frank Fenner that its too little too late. But again, what are the implications for Christian theism if this happens?

[cslewislover]

I have read about global warming, of course (and I like Rich's article on it), but I'd need to go back and look at your original link. None of the stuff I had read so far made me concerned that Revelation would not be fulfilled. And BTW, the weather here in S. Cal. has been cooler than normal. I've been wondering if global weather change is going on, and not simply global warming. Who knows over the long term . . .

And . . . we just had another earthquake. San Diego area had a number of them a short time ago.

[DannyM]

I wouldn't put any stock in NASA. In fact I wouldn't put any stock in any so-called reputable organisation. Where I live, things have been getting decidedly cooler for the past few years. Fact. Last winter was the worst in my area for decades. Fact. This is from two years ago, but you'll get an indication of the gerrymandering that goes on in this murky industry. Let us get a wee idea of how NASA works in this area... I'll happily expose the IPCC and any other organisation that deserves exposure at a later date.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/02 ... rmometers/

"NASA temperatures for March 2008 indicate that it was the third warmest March in history, but satellite data sources RSS and UAH disagree. They show March as the second coldest ever in the southern hemisphere, and barely above average worldwide. (The northern hemisphere in March was split between a cold North America and a very warm Asia, causing temperatures in the northern hemisphere to be above average.) Data so far for April shows both hemispheres back on the decline, and April is shaping up to be an unusually cool month across most of the globe (Africa, South America, North America and portions of Europe and Asia).

Both of the satellite data sources, as well as Had-Crut, show worldwide temperatures falling below the IPCC estimates. Satellite data shows temperatures near or below the 30 year average - but NASA data has somehow managed to stay on track towards climate Armageddon. You can draw your own conclusions, but I see a pattern that is troublesome. In science, as with any other endeavour, it is always a good idea to have some separation between the people generating the data and the people interpreting it.

Some good news moving forward was reported this week by Anthony Watts, who blogs at Watt's Up With That? USHCN has issued a press release indicating that they are upgrading their methodology and ending the practice of adjusting data upwards for future temperature readings. This will make the data more credible, though will not resolve the issues associated with growing urban heat islands or a lack of spatial coverage across the planet.

Bear in mind that warming and cooling concerns are nothing new, as this alarming bulletin reminds us -

The Arctic ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consul Ifft, at Bergen, Norway. Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers, he declared, all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone. Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met with as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes. Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm. Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared. Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts, which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds.

A RealClimate blogger? No, that was the US Weather Bureau in 1922.

We saw a global cooling scare in 1924, a global warming scare in 1933, another global cooling in the early 1970s, and another warming scare today. The changes the USHCN promised Watts won't help resolve anything for another decade or so, but perhaps future generations will be able to reduce the alarming increase in the number of climate alarms"

That this is still an 'issue' for many is baffling!!

[DannyM]

From Dr Latif, an author of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [IPCC] and climate physicist at the University of Kiel, Germany, is the latest scientist to question short term predictions of global warming.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... dicts.html

The world could get colder over the next two decades because of natural changes in the Earth's climate, a leading environmental scientist has warned. Dr Mojib Latif, one of the world's top climate modellers, believes predictions of imminent global warming may be wrong and that the Earth could be heading for up to 20 years of cooler temperatures.

However, the dip will be temporary - and the long term trend is still for a warmer planet, he says.

Well of course! What does a scaremongerer do when faced with hard data? Why, he just puts back the date of Armageddon. It almost reminds me of the evolutionists' "given enough time"... Just another anti-empirical claim!

"The cooling will be caused by changes in the atmosphere and ocean currents in the North Atlantic - a phenomenon called the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) and the Atlantic Meridional Oscillation. Risking the wrath of other climatologists, he said the NAO may have been responsible for some of the rapid rise in temperatures of the last three decades."

Whaaaa?

"The 10 warmest years on record have occurred since 1997 while the average world temperatures for 2000 to 2008 are almost 0.2C higher than the average for the 1990s"

Tsk!

[cubeus19]

Thanks for the info Dan, I know that some of this stuff was written late last year, I just hope this hot summer hasn't changed people's minds, because all I keep seeing are reports that this will be the hottest summer ever recorded or it will be right up there with 1936 everyone is almost certian that this summer's heat will surpass the heat of 1998. But anyway to get to the meat of my question, do end times HAVE to go a certain way in order for Christian theism to be true or can the human race end in any random sort of way and Christian theism still be true? And not to mention since the book of Revelation is so difficult and so ambigous with thousands of different interpretations, does anyone (especially those involved in Chrisitan intellectualism and apologetics) know what the best interpretation for the book of Revelation is? I mean is there any loose consensus among scholars, theologians, philosophiers and apologists as to how the human race is suppossed to end?

[Gman]

Thanks for the info Dan, I know that some of this stuff was written late last year, I just hope this hot summer hasn't changed people's minds, because all I keep seeing are reports that this will be the hottest summer ever recorded or it will be right up there with 1936 everyone is almost certian that this summer's heat will surpass the heat of 1998. But anyway to get to the meat of my question, do end times HAVE to go a certain way in order for Christian theism to be true or can the human race end in any random sort of way and Christian theism still be true? And not to mention since the book of Revelation is so difficult and so ambigous with thousands of different interpretations, does anyone (especially those involved in Chrisitan intellectualism and apologetics) know what the best interpretation for the book of Revelation is? I mean is there any loose consensus among scholars, theologians, philosophiers and apologists as to how the human race is suppossed to end?

Revelation is a book of images and symbols. John tells us plainly that the revelation he received was signified or represented through signs Revelation 1:1. As for a consensus, most theologians believe the earth will end via fire.. Also told in 2 Pet. 3:7...

[DannyM]

Thanks for the info Dan, I know that some of this stuff was written late last year, I just hope this hot summer hasn't changed people's minds, because all I keep seeing are reports that this will be the hottest summer ever recorded or it will be right up there with 1936 everyone is almost certian that this summer's heat will surpass the heat of 1998. But anyway to get to the meat of my question, do end times HAVE to go a certain way in order for Christian theism to be true or can the human race end in any random sort of way and Christian theism still be true? And not to mention since the book of Revelation is so difficult and so ambigous with thousands of different interpretations, does anyone (especially those involved in Chrisitan intellectualism and apologetics) know what the best interpretation for the book of Revelation is? I mean is there any loose consensus among scholars, theologians, philosophiers and apologists as to how the human race is suppossed to end?

No problemo cubeus! There is much myth surrounding climate change.

I think that Gman is right, and I also think that we won't even have time to debate, for it will hit humanity like a fist in the face. We'll know about it, for sure.