Atheist argument that is causing my friend to doubt...

[Kristoffer]

Well, perhaps the Ideal will BECOME something real. That's How I see it, and it has happened like that before for me. I even read in a Book by C.S.Lewis that Christians should do some pretending, by "putting on Christ like clothing", that is acting more Christian Even if they really aren't. He Used to be an atheist, It seems to me he is using the same reasonable strategy that I am.

Now what needs to happen is, for the ideal to be lived up to and for every time I reach the top, the summit to dissipater even higher. Its kind of unobtainable because there is always a higher and better goodness to reach, if there was a human who ever reached that level you would know about it and it would also path the way for others to reach it too.

[Silvertusk]

What if you ran out of time and you never reached the next summit?

ST.

[Kristoffer]

The only way you would have enough time to reach a unobtainable goal, is if we had more time than we can realistically be certain of. I can only be totally certain that this is the Only Life I will have, so it is very important to put in Great Effort to try and be worthy, if you fail to try then you have wasted a great chance.

Think how many people decided not to try because they thought it would not do them any good?

[Silvertusk]

The only way you would have enough time to reach a unobtainable goal, is if we had more time than we can realistically be certain of. I can only be totally certain that this is the Only Life I will have, so it is very important to put in Great Effort to try and be worthy, if you fail to try then you have wasted a great chance.

Think how many people decided not to try because they thought it would not do them any good?

Yes - trying will be a worthy cause and a good life - but still will not be enough. Wouldn't it better to know that yes I will live a good life because God has saved me. God has paid for my sins.

[Kristoffer]

Why should I just let god Take away all that is wrong with me? It is part of who am am, If that means going to hell then I do not wish to find a get out of jail free. If you think you deserve something then why oh why try to escape your fate?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Why should I just let god Take away all that is wrong with me?

You've got this wrong. God doesn't take away all that is wrong with you, he just forgives it. Look at my signature line, Justification is an event, sanctification is a process. Justification speaks of God's forgiveness at the moment of your repentence; sanctification - growing to be more & more like Kristus - is something left up to you.

If that means going to hell then I do not wish to find a get out of jail free.

If that is your choice, go to hell.

FL

[zoegirl]

Why should I just let god Take away all that is wrong with me? It is part of who am am, If that means going to hell then I do not wish to find a get out of jail free. If you think you deserve something then why oh why try to escape your fate?

Kristoff, what parts of you would God take away that you would not want Him to take away? I am unclear on this and would liek you to clarify this.

He sanctifies us from sin....that would be anger, lust, greed...do you really want to continue in these?

[Kristoffer]

I try my best to be Free from anger, I have little time for Lust...I have little need for greed, why waste money on vanity? I even use braces to keep my trousers up rather than spending lots to get them tailored.

[zoegirl]

you haven't ansewred my question...what do think god would take away from you?

[cslewislover]

Kristoffer, your whole argument here is so hollow, at least for you, I believe. I guess in one way it's not - that you want to work for your perfection. You want to do it yourself - that's called PRIDE. You try to be good, and that IS good. There's nothing wrong with that! But most people find it very hard not to sin in some way. These people eventually want help in overcoming their sin. Maybe you feel you don't need that, but many people do. God's Holy Spirit helps people with this. Anyway, God want's to help, and He wants relationship.

Overall, though, it's silly. You'd rather go to hell? For what reason? As Zoe asked, how do you think God would change you? Lol, you sound like such a stereotypical guy - you want to do everything yourself, and you don't want anyone to change you! As for my own experience with becoming a Christian, after having lived a while, I found whatever changes there were, were for the better. Chirst hasn't changed my personality, and He still hasn't taken away all my proclivity to sin, but He has helped me a lot; the changes He makes bring you back to the beautiful person you were meant to be, as if there were no sin in the world that had affected you. Like it will be like in Heaven - how will we be like with no sin pounding at us all the time? I think we'll be jolly good! Ok, looking up that Tinkie Winkie image in the other thread affected me . . .

[Gabrielman]

I just have one thing to ask... Derrick, where is your friend?

[derrick09]

Let's see....

He told me he registered yesterday, and I think he has viewed the thread he just hasn't posted yet. I can give you his e-mail address if you like. I don't think he was online much at all yesterday, I normally talk to him on facebook and I didn't see him any yesterday so I don't know.

[Gabrielman]

Let's see....

He told me he registered yesterday, and I think he has viewed the thread he just hasn't posted yet. I can give you his e-mail address if you like. I don't think he was online much at all yesterday, I normally talk to him on facebook and I didn't see him any yesterday so I don't know.

Well I am just concerned a bit for him, first for his faith, and secondly that by the time he gets to post we will have about 5 pages he has to read through! But mostly I am worried about his faith. He will be in our prayers for sure!

[derrick09]

Thank you greatly for being concerned, he actually is in the process of comming up with his own answer, he gave it to me the other day and it sounded really good but he was unsure as far as whether or not it would pass philosophical muster. I guess he must be either trying to answer this as part of an assignment or he's being severly troubled by his atheist piers with this argument. But either way I guess we will see in a few days if he's doing any better. But thanks for being concerned and for praying.

[Axiomatic]

Hello. I'm the friend the opening poster talked about. I am currently finding pretty good responses to the arguments, but I will definitely read through the various post and try to respond.

Thanks.